advice for 45yr-old JOAT?

bhoops

For the last 25 years, I've worked as a C programmer, and analyst. The "analyst" tasks have been automating tasks, system integration, and learning odd-ball technologies. This has been interesting, because I have been able to write C programs, working in Linux/Unix, optimize MySQL configurations, and do other things. The main problem is, the "jack-of-all-trades" career, combined with no degree, has led me to earn about 30% of what my coworkers earn. In the last year my job has become almost menial, and my "programming" career seems dead. There are people I work with that program in Ruby-On-Rails, IOS, C++, Java, and VC++ - but I am stuck writing scripts to install and manage their programs. I am very good at keeping everyone else working at full-speed, but there is no advancement for me. When I asked why they where hiring C++ people for $105k, when I made $75K, they said they needed me to keep doing what I was doing, and they also needed C++ programmers. When I said I had already taken and got A's in 2 college C++ classes, they said they needed me where I was at. So I am screwed. My salary is low because they are simply not going to pay me the going rate if I don't have a college degree.

I am now considering changing careers to something else, via a degree at WGU. I'm not sure I want to do OOP programming, and I am a big fan of Linux. Industry contacts have advised me to get a degree and/or learn C#/.Net programming.

Since I am 45 now, I would probably be 47-49 by the time I finished a degree, so I cam thinking about what I would want to do then. A "dream" job, would be to be a self-employed security consultant, and drive around the country in an RV working for 3 weeks for $10k doing security audits at companies. I'm not a hacker, but it is something that has always interested me. I would probably do better in short creative bursts than working 10 years doing the same thing. I don't know if there is work for nomadic InfoSec people, hence the "dream". Maybe I could be a nomadic C# programmer.

What would be nice, would be to have a degree and a skill in doing something I enjoyed. I've always been shut-out of most IT jobs because of a lack of a degree, it would almost be weird to have one, at this point in my career. I am often in charge of systems that I have developed, though they are not computer networks, generally automated processes. I did some Netware administration a long time ago, but that was not my primary job.

I was worried that if I pursued an "InfoSec" degree from WGU, I would have entered a very small job market. For example, in a company with 100 programmers, how many are InfoSec analysts - one or two? I was also afraid I might not be smart enough, real assembler-level hacking is not something I would want to do.

Sorry for the long rant, I'm trying to figure out what my WGU major should be, which probably should be based on what I expect to be doing after I get the degree. Any suggestions?

shodown

I'm not sure how long you been at your current company, but if its over 5 years they pretty much told you to F off a long time ago. Your best bet is to try to get some side C++ work and build up your resume. Java, C++ are all OOP based languages and there are plenty of work for them if you can find it. Try freelancer and the other sites. Get some side gigs going and plan your escape. WGU can work as well and if you already have some college it shouldn't take you as long as you think. I have a few more thoughts but I have a cut in a few min. I'll post again tomorrow.

dmoore44

As luck would have it, there are positions for 'nomadic security consultants'. I see job postings allowing for 'work from anywhere' (i.e. 80% travel) positions at HP pop up on the ISC2 message boards and LinkedIn a few times a quarter. So, if that's your dream, I'd attempt to transition in to a security oriented role while working on that BS. After that, go after the CISSP and you should be good.

Soliton

I'm assuming you have no degree or certification currently correct? If this is the case, then being able to make 75k a year a year is pretty nice. Now, I'm not doubting your skills, but some employers will see you not having a degree as not knowing enough for a higher position, or not being qualified. If you want to keep climbing, a degree and certifications will help you along the way.

Since you love programming, a Computer Science degree would be best for you. An IT degree would work as well, but it is not really focused on Programming, while CS is. If you wish to change scenery to InfoSec, it's a great field with cool concepts and work. Jobs are not too scarce, but are competitive. Doing your own consulting is a great idea, but make sure you have plenty of InfoSec experience so that you know how to handle the work in any situation.

On the flip-side, never settle for a job. People tend to forget that they are not at the mercy of their employer. You have put in 5 years with them, and worked hard and delivered on what they need. If they don't want to promote you, screw them. Start looking for better positions and come back with some offers and tell them "XYZ company just offered me a position making $XX,XXX a year in XYZ position, if you cannot match or exceed this offer, I will resigning and giving my two weeks notice". You obviously have solid work experience programming.

A friend of mine once told me "I keep one foot at work, and one foot looking for more". Even when he's had a stable job with great pay, he NEVER stops looking to move up.

bigdogz

Regardless if you are going for any other job in IT the degree will always give you an added bonus. You may be able to supplement your experience and add some certifications to assist you when you go to WGU. Going for a CS degree would probably the easiest for you since you are a JOAT programmer.

Good Luck!!!!

thenjduke

My theory is you are never too old to learn something new. Go with your dreams and tell the present company you are working for to screw off once you get your education done. You could self study for certifications and if a degree is what you want and great at self study WGU is the way to go.

NetworkVeteran

When I said I had already taken and got A's in 2 college C++ classes, they said they needed me where I was at. So I am screwed. My salary is low because they are simply not going to pay me the going rate if I don't have a college degree.

A CS degree covers far, far more than a "couple C++ classes." Your job has done you a favor by showing you that, by failing to advance your skills to the level of your co-workers, you are losing $30,000/yr. There are online CS degrees these days! A CS degree will help you excel at programming, networking, and more depending on what happens to strike your fancy.

If you plan to work another ten years, a solid degree is almost certainly worth it.

I've always been shut-out of most IT jobs because of a lack of a degree,

Just as with your programming work, a degree will give you a significant boost in income, but it's by no means required for IT work. More accurately, you are probably held back due to not having any relevant certifications.

paul78

@bhoops - the description of your role doesn't strike me as a joat. If anything, I would have surmised that you have been pigeon-holed in your current job as a release engineer who used to be a software developer. The base salary for a release engineer specialty does vary but your salary doesn't sound low to me - it largely depends on the complexity of the release packages that you are building.

I largely agree with what @Soliton said - ".... never settle for a job. People tend to forget that they are not at the mercy of their employer."

I do not mean to seem harsh - but are you sure that you have not simply been too complacent at your job and role?

I am also 45 - I do not have a college degree and I do not have any certifications (until recently when I decided to see what the fuss was about...). I can assure you that I make about 30%+ more than some of my peers who have degrees. I'm highly compensated for what I do...

Employers value their employees based on the contribution that the employee bring to the corporation - not the degrees that the employee possesses. Having a degree or certifications is a demonstration of what that employee "may be" able to contribute. But it's the actual accomplishments on the job and in your career that counts.

That said - by all means - go get that degree. I have been toying with finishing at WGU myself, but course work at WGU and other colleges do not appeal to me.

Have you tried to circulate your resume to see if other potential employers will value your 25 years of experience differently? You may be pleasantly surprised.

NetworkVeteran

@bhoops - the description of your role doesn't strike me as a joat. If anything, I would have surmised that you have been pigeon-holed in your current job as a release engineer who used to be a software developer. (A)re you sure that you have not simply been too complacent at your job and role?

PS - I don't disagree with this assessment. A JOAT is flexible, but you describe many newer languages you don't know, and say you aren't sure you want to learn OOP (which is, of course, the heart of C++, and a key way to manage software complexity.) Personally, I've been paid to program in at least a dozen languages, and being capable of managing complexity in software projects is one reason I'm in-demand. I'd add programming is only a hat I occasionally wear, my forte and current job being focused on networking. Hard degree work gave me the tools and gives me instant recognition, but applying them is worth alot in itself.

Is there anything you still love about programming? Doing that as a hobby may give you opportunities to hone those skills. Alternatively, there are free (no-credit) computer science classes online these days that are quite good!

Just another set of options and possible direction to consider. G'luck, mate!

bhoops

What a difference a day makes! Today's news, before I respond to comments. My current employer often hires a Microsoft-skilled consultant to help them with their 20 servers. He is self-employed, and has numerous Microsoft certs. He does everything except develop software.

Since he knows me well, and the situation I am in, I asked him which WGU BSIT degree he thought would best prepare me for a better career. His response really surprised me. He said he was hoping to hire me sometime next year, regardless of whether I had a degree or certs. He makes better money writing software for clients, but doesn't have anyone to do it. So *now* my plan is to go to WGU later, and get certified as a Microsoft Developer ASAP. I would be the 4th person in his 15-yr-old company.

I guess I will find out the right "track" to get on to become C# certified, I'm sure I will be here asking a lot of questions!

@shodown - I've been working at my current job for 10 years, so there has been plenty of time. For the last two years I was in discussions with the owner about my salary. I said, "Here is a chart of average salaries, from $75k to $125k. I am not on this chart." After two years of being put off, he sold the company to a larger company, and now it's "out of his hands". As for OOP, I am a long time C programmer, and never really excelled at OOP paradigms. I took some classes in C++, and even worked as a Java programmer for a year, but I still think procedurally. As I mentioned above, it looks like I will be doing OOP within a year, so now I will be getting good at it.

@dmoore44 - Its good know I wasn't dreaming! If I start working for my friends company, there should be plenty of opportunity to apply some InfoSec skills. I helped him once run Nessus on one of his client's systems to track down a compromised machine. That was pretty fun!

@Soliton - You are correct, I have no degree or certs. As described above, it sounds like I will be getting in to consulting soon. The current plan is to: get a few certs, join my friends company, stay busy for a few years (and get more certs), then go back to WGU and get a 4yr degree. I actually talked to the WGU counselor today, and I told them I was probably going to get the certs first, and look in to taking the Math, Chemistry, etc classes at WGU in a few years. He said that sounded fine. Today we rolled out another client using all my automated tools, and everyone was amazed it all worked perfect. The Project Manager said at his last company it took 2 weeks to convert a customer's systems, and all my stuff did it in 2 hours. What all this means for me is, I will be writing batch files as long as I stay at this company.

@bigdogz - I still plan to go to WGU, it is just delayed for a while. At least I will be developing modern skills in the meantime, and what I learn (certs) will probably count for credit at WGU.

@NetworkVeteran - I am aware a CS degree covers more than C++ classes. I've taken college classes in Pascal, Data Structures, DBaseIV, C++, Advanced C++, Unix, Advanced Unix, SQL, and about a year's worth of non-technical classes. Somehow I don't feel like my job has done me a favor by underpaying me by $30k a year. When I have to help a guy, who makes $120k a year because he has a Masters Degree in CS, write SQL queries that properly use the available indices, I'm just not feeling that favor.

@paul78 - I disagree that your pay is based on what you do for a company. What usually happens with me, is that a friend gets hired in to a company, and then tells them to hire me. I take the job because it is for more money, but it is still less money than the going rate. It's my fault for not asking for more money, but at that point, I don't feel like I have much to bargain with. Once I am at the new company, they realize that I can do a million different things, and I quickly become the "glue" that holds everything together. And they never raise my pay. As mentioned above, I may go work for a friends consulting company next year. Like you, he disagreed that I had no skills to offer, he said I was one of the best people at my current company at getting things done. And that is the clincher, it's hard to sell the fact that you "get things done", because everyone else says exactly the same thing.

@NetworkVeteran - I've studied OOP, and taken classes in it, but I have never done it long enough to get good at it. I got involved in programming as a hobby back in the 80s, and my "hobby" became my job. One of my problems is that almost everything interests me. I will run Linux for a few months, then switch to UNIX, then OSX, write some Ruby scripts, look in to LUA, set up a Posftix mailserver, try mirroring MySQL servers, study PostgreSQL, write an iPhone app, study neural networks, then study genetic algorithms, and on and on. All this does not add up to a cert or a degree, though.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

paul78

Sounds like some good karma... Sometimes all you need is that little bit of good timing.

Good luck to you.

whatthehell

This is a great an inspirational story --- I wish you the best of luck with consulting! This definitely gives me more motivation to keep learning and keep looking!