Computer Science vs. WGU's BS:IT Software Emphasis

LunarSylph

I'd like to read people's honest experiences with being able to get a decent software-related job if all they have is WGU's BS:IT;SE degree. No previous related work experience.

The more I look at positions out there, the more I see Computer Science Degree ("or related degree"?) being a requirement. How come virtually no employers simply ask for a BS:IT Software Emphasis as per what WGU offers? Sometimes they tack on "IT major" thankfully. But it's nowhere near as common as Comp Sci.

It is not my intention to sound condescending, but isn't it somewhat unfair to the people who do get CS degrees if we can get an equivalent job without struggling with the theory? Wouldn't we who only get BS:IT degrees be looked upon by our co-workers as "not true programmers"? Are there really application developers out there enjoying good jobs without all that crazy math having scarred them for life

Being able to eschew Calculus, Discrete Mathematics, Statistics, Assembly Language, Computer Architecture, etc. and somehow land the same job (or at least a similar job) as someone who did take those classes also seems hard to believe... and I would like direction on whether or not it is wiser (not just for me, but for anyone else at WGU wishing to develop software applications for a living) to transfer to a full-on CS program?

I ask these questions because I've never had an IT-related job, but have mostly taught myself the technologies and some of the theory (Big O notation, Data Structures, MIPS Assembly, etc.) over the years. Can someone truly get a good job without a CS degree behind them?

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I admit I'm naive (am I?).

I had thought a BS:IT (Software Development) wouldn't be all that different from a BS in Computer Science (Software Engineering), considering that people in both areas end up doing what they love: programming. Or can they? Is WGU a big mistake for serious programmers? Or can it even the scales to have Certifications (OCPJP 7, yadda yadda), GitHub projects you can list on a resume, and a solid portfolio of applications?

Bottom line, I've been working through the WGU Software Emphasis program and was surprised how simple the material has been. 35 CUs in one term was sort of a challenge only because I took so many in a single term. Admittedly my perspective is skewed as I've finished a handful of classes in UW Madison's Comp Sci program, and have been programming at a hobbyist level for 8 years. Perhaps there just isn't much software-specific (not math/theory, but syntax, design patterns, etc.) challenge in Undergraduate programs (even Comp Sci ones)?

I do like knowing more about generic IT concerns (security, networking, sys admin, etc.). But am I to believe employers like having programmers on their teams who are well-rounded in generalized IT knowledge (Security+, Network+, etc.) more so than programmers with traditional Comp Sci backgrounds?

Again, as someone with no exposure to the IT scene, I don't know whether to buy that or not.

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Lastly, employers will often list "Computer Science or related degree" on their job requirements. So here is my main question: Do employers honestly hire people with a BS:IT;SE degree when they ask for "Computer Science or related degree"?

Here are some job listings that make it hard to know "where to draw the line," i.e., whether or not someone with a WGU:Software degree could apply or not.

Examples:

(For examples, visit Indeed[dot]com and search using quotes "Computer Science or related". I'd list examples here, but apparently it breaks the techexams forums to link elsewhere. Apologies for the double-thread if it's still showing in the thread history- apparently when I inserted a hyperlink of an example job at Indeed[dot]com it blew up techexams' forums)

sratakhin

I'm sure 80% of people here will tell you to get a CS degree. It's more difficult but gets more respect. How would like to not be selected for your dream job just because your degree wasn't in CS? Hypothetical, but happens. Also, if you have plans for MS in CS, having BS in CS helps A LOT.

LunarSylph

Trouble is I'm stuck (happily) in Small Town USA and online is my sole viable school modality.

I'd love to stress and embrace the challenge of a full-on Comp Sci degree if it were really going to make a difference. Except that I understand ABET (Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology) certified schools are what the picky kind of employers are really looking for. However, at present the only two ABET certified all-online Computer Science degrees are from a Jesuit University called Regis (which requires 1 year of religious studies- um, no thank you), and Florida State University (FSU's foreign language requirement wouldn't be so bad).

FSU seems great, except for one thing (and it's in the fine print). Apparently you need an AA from an in-state Florida school to qualify. There just aren't many CAC (Computing Accreditation Commission) approved online Comp Sci options out there.

I understand Troy and others exist, but are not ABET certified. Penn State World Campus has a nice Information Sciences program, heck so does Harvard Extension school... but neither are CAC-approved Comp Sci, are they? The story repeats itself as you go down the US News Top Online BS Degrees list.

I get the impression the non-approved ones all just sort of lump together in the same broad "Computer Science or related" category.

Might as well just stick with a BS:IT;SE and write up a tasty looking applications portfolio before my hair starts graying

sratakhin

I'm kind of in the same situation - stuck in the middle of nowhere, so I'm going to start online and then possibly move to the area where my chosen school will be. Have you considered distance learning? There are many schools that offer CS degrees entirely online. Heck, even Columbia and University of Southern California (two very prestigious schools) have Online MS in CS! Not sure about BS, though.

LunarSylph

Doing an online MS in Computer Science would certainly be nice, though clearly anyone whose BS is from WGU's IT program would need to take over a dozen Undergraduate courses before that door opens.

Is there any precedent for this?

Anyone here get their BS:IT;SE at WGU and then land a conditional acceptance to a Comp Sci Masters Program? (During which time one would have to take X number of classes to make up for the difference in curriculum- is that how it works?)

How about anyone who got the BS:IT;SE but then added Comp Sci classes (via Distance Learning, or a local community college) and managed to get into a Comp Sci Masters Program?

The temptation to go with Penn State's Computer Science: Master of Software Engineering would be very strong. Though they call it "Computer Science" it's top-heavy in business/SDLC and project management classes. I suspect one could theoretically get into their Masters program without adding too many classes on top of WGU's BS:IT;SE. That's just going by their course list though. Again, not what most would call "actual" Comp Sci. Odd how these terms mean such different things depending on the school in question.

Slithy

I have actually put some thought into the comparison as well and generally don't see the major value of the IT;SE degree. Bottom line is that people will read that as an IT degree - and it probably puts enough study into non-programming related IT things that they might be justified. The theoretical foundations of each degree are going to be different(one thing that insures this is the mathematics requirements of a CS degree). Just because the WGU degree gets you a Java cert - that doesn't mean that it is covering all of the language unspecific knowledge that a CS degree might.

The WGU degrees in IT often have one strength to pair with their less appealing degree-name/relatively unknown school reputation and that is certifications. However, unlike the pure IT area where something like a CCNA is valuable, Programming certs don't hold the same weight. You can see discussions of it on stack overflow and such but the bottom line seems to be that employers often don't think the programming certifications help to guarantee that an employee is capable of the skillset they are looking for. CS degrees ARE useful for getting looked at but being able to show technical competence when interviewing and having previous work to show your ability(this is where things like Github comes in) are going to be the really big factors.

I think WGU has some really good programs(balance of price/time with certs and such) - but the IT;SE does not seem to offer the same level of advantages.

sratakhin

LunarSylph,

I haven't actually applied to any CS programs yet but it's my plan for 2014 and beyond. My degree is in MIS, although I finished two years of Computer Science. Hopefully, my background will be enough to not have to take math classes. Still, if I could go back a few years, I'd have done BS in CS but I guess it's too late

Btw, are you talking about Penn State: World Campus? I heard they have very solid programs.

LunarSylph

World Campus, that's right.

Their "Bachelor of Science in Information Sciences and Technology" program seems to be designed to build up to the "Master of Software Engineering". But again, their curriculum is low in math requirements (even I was able to make it through just introductory Calculus once many moons ago), not ABET accredited, and doesn't look significantly better than WGU's. Plus, requiring 18 credits of foreign language and "culture" related classes is just... wow

ptilsen

I should just go copy/paste my own posts, but for some reason I think typing a novel is better, so here goes.

WGU's BSIT: Software is easily the weakest, least useful of its BSIT degrees. The other degrees are appropriate because they include career-relevant certifications and classes, and fulfill the typically-less-stringent requirements for IT infrastructure positions. While I'll still advocate CS for even those positions, the truth is WGU BSIT, traditional CIS and MIS, and similar are just fine. While CS material is valuable even to people who don't primarily program or design software for a living, the argument that people in these fields have a compelling reason to get CS is not necessarily a strong one.

Software development (et al) is very different. When you see job postings for software jobs that require CS or related/similar degrees, that pretty much exclusively refers to computer science, software engineering (which is just an uncommon renaming of a focused CS degree), computer engineering, or electrical engineering. They are typically not looking for CIS, and they are definitely not looking for MIS, business, or WGU. Math degrees can sometimes substitute, and are better than IT degrees at that. Can a self-taught programmer still succeed as a software engineer? Absolutely. Does not having the CS degree put them at a big disadvantage? Absolutely. And here's where software engineering and IT infrastructure start to diverge.

There is no easy, clear self-study path to replace the knowledge learned in a CS degree. It would essentially be self-teach the exact same material as a CS degree. Almost none of the content is superfluous, and I would even argue that even decent CS programs could probably use more stringent core curriculum requirements. Even decent CS programs are spitting out candidates who can't do anything outside of simple Java programs. Ultimately, someone absolutely can learn all the knowledge by simply studying the curriculum, but having a subject matter expert there to condense it, answer questions, and give direction actually makes the learning go faster, in my opinion. The same goes for math. The same does not go for IT infrastructure, and traditional universities lose out to WGU and even pure, non-degree self-study. I haven't found learning infrastructure skills to be greatly aided by college coursework. It's like the polar opposite of computer science in this regard.

And again, here's where WGU diverges. Not only is the teach-yourself format inherently worse for prospective software engineers (IMHO), but the curricula for WGU's BSIT Software is bad. It is not the equivalent of computer science. Not even close. It's honestly worse than a two-year computer science AS from a community college. Many, maybe most of those actually require learning deep programming concepts, and sometimes assembly languages, computer architecture, advanced data structures, and lower-level languages (generally C++).

Honestly, I can't stress how relatively weak WGU's BSIT Software degree is. It won't get you very far as almost any kind of programmer, both as a credential and as a learning guide. My no-punches-pulled advice is to stop, and go get the CS degree you wanted. The University of Illinois offers an online CS undergraduate.

ptilsen

Just to add to that, if you ever try to apply to a MCS, MSCS, or PhD CS program with WGU's BSIT Software, you will be in for a rough time. If you don't get outright rejected, you will almost certainly have to take 2-4 math courses, 3-6 CS courses, and either take a course or prove competency in a low-level language (generally C, C++ or both). You'll basically have to take the CS undergrad you didn't get in order to get a graduate computer science degree.

Again, this is the opposite of WGU's other IT degrees, which can easily get you into MSIA, MSIS, MBA, even graduate CIS programs.

LunarSylph

Thank you ptilsen for your no-holds-barred assessment. I've read other posts of yours on this and other topics and I value your input a lot.

It is easy for people like me to get stuck to the honeynet of a shrewd but attractive promise Like the ability to get a decent programming job through an alternate route, safe from the acidy waters of 6-month long terms (you mean no testing out? acceleration?) and soft, cushiony business/tech classes in place of higher mathematics. I really like the WGU education model, the people seem friendly and intelligent, and if only they had a solid Comp Sci track I wouldn't question signing another 2 years of my life off to them...

As it happens I received a reply on this topic from one of WGU's resident PhD holders, and he stands his ground that employers value programmers with an IT background just as much as the more traditional Comp Sci major. Mayhap. I don't regret what I learned at WGU at all. And the absurdly low cost is a testament to their noble ideals and solid business sense. I'm just disaffected by the constant uncertainty.

*sigh* this means I may end up transferring for the third time in 2 years...

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ptilsen, what value would you place on ABET certification? I certainly looked at the University of Illinois at Springfield's program days or weeks ago, but had figured that sans ABET it might not be significantly more advantageous than WGU's angle.

LunarSylph

Out of curiosity: Is there anyone on these forums who has been in a programming team environment where the members had a mix of theory/non-theory backgrounds (like IT/Software vs. CS/Software) and still functioned well? Does that kind of thing really ever happen?

ptilsen

Most people on TE don't have programming backgrounds to answer this, but there are a few who might be able to. I would posit, however, that it comes down to what the team's objectives are, and that in many cases people from alternative backgrounds can still succeed and provide value. If you look into the DevOps movement and what it's about, it would apply precisely to the kinds of team dynamics you're wondering about, although even there, it's more about having infrastructure (operations, or the ops in devops) and development collaborate and cooperate than it is about developers from "non-theory" backgrounds.

NetworkVeteran

LunarSylph wrote: »

Out of curiosity: Is there anyone on these forums who has been in a programming team environment where the members had a mix of theory/non-theory backgrounds (like IT/Software vs. CS/Software) and still functioned well? Does that kind of thing really ever happen?

Prior to earning my degree, I was eligible for weaker shops where they didn't want to pay extra for a degree. After earning my degree, I was eligible for stronger shops where they demanded and paid a premium for a CS degree. What you propose is uncommon, but exists. Sometimes you need a cheaper "junior programmer". And it's not impossible for marketing-centric company to succeed, and eventually choose to invest/improve their development team.

I'd definitely recommend the CS degree if you can swing it for a programming role. It also covers a variety of other technical disciplines (networking, databases, operating systems, security) if your interests change later.

But am I to believe employers like having programmers on their teams who are well-rounded in generalized IT knowledge (Security+, Network+, etc.) more so than programmers with traditional Comp Sci backgrounds?

Assuming the programming job required networking knowledge, there's little reason to prefer someone who spent a few weeks learning all the OSI levels 1cm deep, when they could instead hire someone who covered a book like the Perlman/Tanenbaum networking introduction books which go 4in deep into each layer and in addition the courses usually include several programming projects writing network applications and feedback from better programmers!

There would have to be other factors involved. E.g., the Network+ guy may be much cheaper.

daneeeee

Hey all, I've also been considering the WGU BS:IT with a concentration in Software.. Can anybody advise if there are any good online CS programs out there that are accredited? I'm based in Canada, but open to suggestions.

GAngel

I've never met a CS major who would trade it for any other computer related degree.
I do know plenty of guys who failed out of first year because they thought all you had to master was programming (insert flavor of the month). Most went on to MIS type degrees and are doing just fine money and career wise and some were insane coders.

Someone who is great in math would prly excel in CS over a great programmer. The programming is only the output of all your work as a prof of mine used to tell us.

LunarSylph

Glad to hear more opinions on this subject... it's a good one for people to openly discuss more.

What I did was email some of the employers I have my eye on for post-degree, and this is the gist of what I've been receiving back as responses:

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[FONT=&amp]Thank you for your email and interest in [Business]. [/FONT][FONT=&amp][Business] [/FONT][FONT=&amp]values both four-year degrees (Information Technology and Computer Science) when considering candidates for our Software Development positions. [/FONT]
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Well, that aside, with only a year left in my program I think I've decided to stay at WGU, with a twist.

First, get MCSD certified on my own, since most of the local employers prefer VB.NET (I know, it's yet another easy language, but that's business for you). If an employer sees someone bothered to get both Oracle and MCSD certified on top of a 4-year IT degree, it should signal that their dealing with a dedicated coder, since no one would ever actually need to know both at once.

I can take additional classes (like Statistics, etc.) at UW-Extension which is all online for us Wisconsin folk while at WGU, in anticipation of maybe one day getting a second degree in Computer Science (I hear U of Illinois--Springfield has a viable Undergraduate Comp Sci degree online), if only to have a chance at getting into an AI-infused Graduate program (like Drexel's), where my area of interest for the past decade has always been... I'll never know if it's beyond my abilities to try unless I at least try it.

But it's MOST practical to get *a degree* first (I'm not getting any younger, and have my share of debts to pay). Which then brings work experience, which then improves all other prospects. For at least getting my foot in the door, I know I can rely on WGU.

Life is nothing if not a series of very difficult choices! And two degrees are hard to argue with from any angle, so I'm fine just getting both IT and Comp Sci. Amazingly, U of Illinois--Springfield is actually almost as cheap as WGU, and encourages students who work full time to just take 2 classes a semester until finished.
I've got nothing better to do with my free time, so what the hey