Getting a diploma, should I bother with a IT degree?

qsub

Right now, I'm getting a network administration diploma (with heavy wireless focus) It's a three year program. Third year is cisco academy crap and a co-op placement. I get a cisco academy certificate. Not for CWNP or anything. Just a certificate.

Pretty much, I was wondering if it would be beneficial to pursue a degree in Computer and Information Systems. In Canada, our colleges don't offer degrees, they only offer college diplomas. Degrees can only be obtained in a University.

So to sum it up, is it worth getting going to university for a degree in Computers and Information Systems? Or should I take management, business or something?

Links
College Program (Diploma):http://www.georgebrown.ca/Marketing/FTCal-Jan/caet/T147.aspx#maincontent
University Program (Degree):http://www.athabascau.ca/calendar/page03_20.html

Here's the college program I'm currently taking.

SEMESTER 1
Course Code 	Courses (Mandatory)
COMP1165 	Desktop Software Installation and Support
COMP1078 	Introduction to Database Applications
COMP1166 	Introduction to Programming
MATH1025 	Mathematics for Technology
COMM1007 	College English
GSSC1062 	Current Issues in Health Care Delivery in Ontario

SEMESTER 2
Course Code 	Courses (Mandatory)
COMP 1151 	Computer Hardware Fundamentals
COMP 2063 	Essential Networking Technologies
COMP 1080 	Internet Application Development Fundamentals
MATH 1012 	Mathematics for Information Technology
GNED 	General Education Elective


SEMESTER 3
Course Code 	Courses (Mandatory)
COMP 2065 	Desktop OS Installation and Support
COMP 2103 	Project Management
COMP 2102 	Wireless Technology Fundamentals
COMP 2064 	Network Administration and Support I
COMM 1034 	Professional Communications I
GNED 	General Education Elective

SEMESTER 4
Course Code 	Courses (Mandatory)
COMP 2104 	Network Security Fundamentals
COMP 2074 	Network Administration and Support II
COMP 2072 	TCP/IP and Network Infrastructure
COMM 1035 	Professional Communications II
GNED 	General Education Elective

SEMESTER 5
Course Code 	Courses (Mandatory)
COMP 3044 	UNIX Essentials
COMP 3045 	Data Communications I
COMP 3046 	Technical Project I
COMP 3047 	Applied Electromagnetics
COMM 3054 	Narrowband Communications
COMP 3049 	Intermediate Wireless Technology

SEMESTER 6
Course Code 	Courses (Mandatory)
COMP 3050 	Ethics for IT Professionals
COMP 3051 	Data Communications II
COMP 3052 	Technical Project II
COMP 3053 	Wireless Service Techniques
COMP 3048 	Broadband Communications
COMP 3055 	Team Project

And here's the Computer and Information Systems Degree I'm looking at.

ADMN 233  	 Writing in Organizations  	(3)
COMP 200 	Introduction to Computing and Information
Systems 	(3)
COMP 268 	Introduction to Computer Programming (Java) 	(3)
COMP 272 	Data Structures (Java) 	(3)
COMP 314 	Computer Organization 	(3)
COMP 347 	Computer Networks 1 	(3)
COMP 361 	System Analysis and Design 	(3)
COMP 378 	Introduction to Database Management 	(3)
COMP 495 	Computer and Information Systems Projects I 	(3)
ENGL 255 	Introductory Composition 	(3)
MATH 209 	Finite Mathematics 	(3)
MATH 215 	Introduction to Statistics
or 	 
MATH 216 	Computer-Oriented Approach to Statistics 	(3)
MATH 265 	Introduction to Calculus I 	(3)
MATH 270 	Linear Algebra I 	(3)
MATH 309 	Discrete Mathematics 	(3)
MGSC 405 	Quantitative Approaches to Decision Making 	(3)
ORGB 364 	Organizational Behaviour 	(3)
PHIL 333 	Professional Ethics
or 	 
PHIL 371 	Ethics, Science, Technology, and the Environment 	(3)
SCIE 326 	Scientific Reasoning 	(3)
  	

and the following

Computer Science (COMP) or Computers and Management Information Systems (CMIS)
courses at the 300 level.
	(15)
  	Computer Science (COMP) courses at the 400 level.
	(1[IMG]https://us.v-cdn.net/6030959/uploads/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif[/IMG]

jaeusm

It really depends on what you want to do. If you want to work in IT, stick with the diploma. If you want to do heavy software development, get the degree.

QUIX0TIC

Im unsure how it works in Canada but it looks like the school you are going to is more of a tech college than a traditional college. Again, I am unsure so if I am wrong... excuse me for my ignorance on Canadian colleges.

If you plan to expand on any other fields... then getting a traditional degree with English, History, Math, and computer related classes that get you a B.S. or B.A. would always be the most beneficial in the long run. You can always get a certificate anywhere and it wont mean a thing unless the jobs require that specific certificate. But, I would imagine more positions would require you to obtain traditional college/University degrees.

strauchr

Its seems like the same in Australia. I have a Diploma in IT(Network Engineering) that focused heavily on NOS's, switches, routers and project management. I have never had any issues using this combined with my experience and certs to get work. However, I am planning a mangement degree specialising in IT as I feel my career progress will be hampered by lack of degree.

But it does also depend on what you want to do, software development is traditionally for Uni and other technology jobs are traditionally for College. Higher level jobs such as management, consultancy and project management often require degrees.

QUIX0TIC

Im always unsure why most people compare Comp Sci as only a software engineering degree. There are always EE degrees that help tremendously and a lot of companies look for them.

jaeusm

Im always unsure why most people compare Comp Sci as only a software engineering degree.

In computer science curriculums, the majority of the focus is on software development. Nearly all B.S. degrees in computer science contain the following courses:

- Object Oriented Programming (software development, obviously)
- Data Structures (necessary for any kind of substantial programming)
- Computer Architecture (assembly programming)
- Networking (network theory and network programming)
- Operating Systems (theory, implementation of an OS)
- Database (theory, construction, develop programs to interact with a DB)
- Algorithms (programs are implementations of algorithms)
- Software Engineering (use engineering methodology to develop software)

Much of the focus of computer science at the undergraduate level is centered on developing software.

KGhaleon

I received some little paper certificates saying that I completed my Cisco Academy classes a while back. Do you usually put those on your resume?
I've never thought of Cisco academy being a "special" program.

KG

mbroberson

I am in a similiar situation. I am a network administrator for a hospital. I don't have a degree, but I am contemplating on going back to school. After gathering advice from those with and without degrees it seems that the best option would be to get a degree. After thinking about it, my current situation I am 28 yrs/old. I am not sure if I want to be doing what I doing now when I am 40, 50, etc... Having the degree it seems mkaes you a little more flexible and an added sence of security. A degree no one can take away from you. Cisco, Microsoft, or any other company could be gone tomorrow. I will be pursuing a BS in Management, mainly becasue that's about all my local college offers with the night program. Getting a degree is really a small price to pay for your career. It will pay for itself many times over.

DarklyWise

Don't limit yourself to what a local college offers! In the day and age of the internet, and distance learning being at your fingertips....

I'm in Canada and am pursuing my degree at http://www.fhsu.edu/int - Fort Hays State University. Check out http://www.degreeinfo.com for your distance learning questions ASAP!

DW

raross

Employers do not look at distant degrees very highly =/

determinedgerman

I have to disagree with raross. First it won't show on your degree that you got it online and second it depends what school you are getting it from. I am looking into getting my Masters in MIS or Network Security and I have looked at a lot of online degrees in that area.

In my case for example I am looking for a school that is accredited by the NSA and is a center of academic excellence. Security related of course. If you go to a school like that and you get the degree it doesn't matter if you got it only or not.

raross

I was talking more about the universities that only have online programs so employers do know, and are heavily advertised. But any online degree you get, you defintly will not learn as much as you would if you were actually there forced to get to lectures etc. It is a principle of motivation.

qsub

The thing is, they offer the exact same program in class.

So it's not just a online-only type of program. It's online or in class. Up to the student. The problem for me is, I no longer want to be in the class room setting. I decided instead of doing six semesters, I'm going to do four and graduate with a regular diploma instead of a advanced.

jmc724

FYI, if you should work for Lockheed Martin and if you have a 4 yr degree you will do quite well iwith promotions and salary increases. If you should pursue a master's degree then you will be looking at management opportunity. Think about it...

qsub

Unfortunetally I'm stuck in Canada.

I'm not sure exactly how canadian college diploma credits would transfer to american university credits. On top of that, you guys go straight for the bachelors degree, where as in canada. There's College Diploma (2-3 years), Bachelors (4 years), then Masters (another 4 years on top of the bachelors). (You can choose bachelors or college diploma first, i happend to choose diploma since really they don't offer a degree that is "networking")

I have no idea what Lockheed Martin is, I would most likely never know. Chances are slim for me to immigrate to America from Canada just because it's hard. And it would be hard as hell to get a temporary visa nowadays as well.

I most likely won't go for a bachelors in another field because 4 years part time will be tough and forever...

Munck

Why not opt for a distance learning degree in networking from the US?
Perhaps you can start at the Masters level if you have enough credits..

jaeusm

But any online degree you get, you defintly will not learn as much as you would if you were actually there forced to get to lectures etc. It is a principle of motivation.

This is absolutely not true. I spent 9 years in a traditional university getting my graduate degree in computer science. I have also taken online courses for classes outside my degree. It takes more motivation and discipline to get through an online course, which usually results in learning more.

At some universities, like Illinois', the online courses are identical to the traditional courses. The lectures are video-taped and put online. The assignments are the same. There is a demo available on Illinois' website.

JDMurray

jaeusm wrote:

It takes more motivation and discipline to get through an online course, which usually results in learning more.

This is basically true. On-line learning is "self-directed" rather than "instructor-directed." It therefore takes more "self-motivation" and "self-discipline" to make it through an on-line course than the equivalent classroom course (IMHO).

raross

jdmurray wrote:

jaeusm wrote:

It takes more motivation and discipline to get through an online course, which usually results in learning more.

This is basically true. On-line learning is "self-directed" rather than "instructor-directed." It therefore takes more "self-motivation" and "self-discipline" to make it through an on-line course than the equivalent classroom course (IMHO).

I dont find this true at all for many reasons. Sure you could go through the book and complete the tests online and even pass the course. But lectures at "good" uni's dont come from the textbooks, they come from the professors. Thus you dont learn as much, plus the hands on experience you get at a university. For instance an engineering degree etc.

From my experience the people who take online classes and ofcourse this is a generalization but are extremely lazy. That is why they are taking the online classes instead of the real thing.

For these reasons and many more is why employers look down on "many" of the online degrees.

raross

I also believe you are using motivation as a vehicle. In respect to your argument, you're saying it takes motivation to complete whatever assignment you have at your class. Which most classes only have about 3 tests, and maybe some assignments. So that means really all you have to do is take the tests, and do the assignments and you "might" pass. Where is the motivation? It seems to me like you would be doing just enough to pass the class.

As if you actually went to the class you would have to be motivated enough to know you had to get up everyday at a specific time and get your ass to class. This is the #1 reason why most people drop out of college, for not coming to class. I believe this is a major factor in an employers decision also, not only what degree you have obtained. But a degree proves you had to work hard and you were motivated enough to get through college and go through all the responsibilities.

jaeusm

But lectures at "good" uni's dont come from the textbooks, they come from the professors. Thus you dont learn as much

That's a rather naive statement. I checked out your website, and since you list the year of your degree as 2009, I'm assuming you are a freshman. First, "good uni's" do not necessarily mean "good professors". Second, your textbooks contain far more information than the sum of your lectures.

plus the hands on experience you get at a university. For instance an engineering degree etc.

For engineering courses, I agree with you to some extent. For computer science courses, I disagree. "Hands on" for CS is programming.

I also believe you are using motivation as a vehicle.

Actually, you mentioned motivation. I quoted it in my previous post.

you're saying it takes motivation to complete whatever assignment you have at your class. Which most classes only have about 3 tests, and maybe some assignments. So that means really all you have to do is take the tests, and do the assignments and you "might" pass. Where is the motivation? It seems to me like you would be doing just enough to pass the class.

The same could be said for traditional classes. In fact, it's true.

As if you actually went to the class you would have to be motivated enough to know you had to get up everyday at a specific time and get your ass to class. This is the #1 reason why most people drop out of college, for not coming to class.

Where did you get that statistic? Maybe it comes as a shock to you, but attending class is not required to master the material of a course. However, yes, you should go to class. I know I'm a bit jaded, but after 9 years, attending classes is not only unappealing, but unnecessary. I can learn more from a textbook on my own than in a lecture setting. In fact, I prefer it that way.

I suppose I can empathize with you, though. When I first started college, I had a similar view.

For these reasons and many more is why employers look down on "many" of the online degrees.

Which employers? Which online degrees?

From my experience the people who take online classes and ofcourse this is a generalization but are extremely lazy. That is why they are taking the online classes instead of the real thing.

Lazy people would fail online courses. Besides, as I already mentioned, some online classes are identical to their offline counter parts -- with all the students lumped together having the same deadlines and assignments.

determinedgerman

raross,

Well......As you said it is just a generalization but I have to take offense to it. I mean you are entiltled to you opinion but there are a lot of people out there that can't physically show up for a class. For instance. I am working 4 10hour days from Fri. to Mon.6PM -5AM. Now you would say ok you have 3 complete days to go to college. Doesn't work that way. My wife works Mon-Fri 8AM-5PM. When she is working I am watching our daughter. The classes that I could take at local colleges or universities start around 6PM. There is no way to be in the classroom at that time. Therefore participation in a class room setting is not possible for me at least not at this time without putting my daughter in daycare which I am not willing to pay the money for. But I want to get my Masters Degree. So what can I do? Take classes online and study when my daughter is sleeping!

Here are a couple other facts. I have not found a university or college yet that has only an online program and not regular classes. Also I am trying to get my Masters in Infosec as I previously stated and again the degree will not state that you have gotten it from the online program.

So saying that people that get their degree online are lazy even as generalization! SORRY BUT NO, NOT TRUE!

It takes a lot of dedication and as jdmurray said a lot of self-motivation and self-discipline to finish your online degree with a good grade and honors. Since I am paying myself for the degree you can be sure that I will get everything out of it.

To your point of:

"This is the #1 reason why most people drop out of college, for not coming to class. I believe this is a major factor in an employers decision also, not only what degree you have obtained."

I think employers look at if a person has a degree or not. It doesn't matter if you have a degree that you obtained online or in a class. Alone the fact that you do have the degree and you were able to design a path for yourself and follow it shows the empoyer that you are not just lazy sitting around the house.

raross

germangiant wrote:

raross,

Well......As you said it is just a generalization but I have to take offense to it. I mean you are entiltled to you opinion but there are a lot of people out there that can't physically show up for a class. For instance. I am working 4 10hour days from Fri. to Mon.6PM -5AM. Now you would say ok you have 3 complete days to go to college. Doesn't work that way. My wife works Mon-Fri 8AM-5PM. When she is working I am watching our daughter. The classes that I could take at local colleges or universities start around 6PM. There is no way to be in the classroom at that time. Therefore participation in a class room setting is not possible for me at least not at this time without putting my daughter in daycare which I am not willing to pay the money for. But I want to get my Masters Degree. So what can I do? Take classes online and study when my daughter is sleeping!

Here are a couple other facts. I have not found a university or college yet that has only an online program and not regular classes. Also I am trying to get my Masters in Infosec as I previously stated and again the degree will not state that you have gotten it from the online program.

So saying that people that get their degree online are lazy even as generalization! SORRY BUT NO, NOT TRUE!

It takes a lot of dedication and as jdmurray said a lot of self-motivation and self-discipline to finish your online degree with a good grade and honors. Since I am paying myself for the degree you can be sure that I will get everything out of it.

To your point of:

"This is the #1 reason why most people drop out of college, for not coming to class. I believe this is a major factor in an employers decision also, not only what degree you have obtained."

I think employers look at if a person has a degree or not. It doesn't matter if you have a degree that you obtained online or in a class. Alone the fact that you do have the degree and you were able to design a path for yourself and follow it shows the empoyer that you are not just lazy sitting around the house.

I understand where you're coming from. From the undergraduate point of view, most people who do online classes/degrees are lazy though. I dont know how it is at the graduate level, as there are probally a lot of people in your same situation and that is why I said as a generalization. But "most" people who take classes/degrees online do it so they do not have a schedule they have to follow. They could do their classes ANYTIME, even if it means not doing anything for a week and just partying. I was talking more towards the uni's that only have online programs and are known for it. Because like you said, if you got your degree from a traditional uni I am sure the employers would never know.

I was not trying to offend anyone, just offering my opinion.

JDMurray

raross wrote:

From my experience the people who take online classes and ofcourse this is a generalization but are extremely lazy. That is why they are taking the online classes instead of the real thing.

In my opinion, your "experience" reflects a complete lack of experience with higher-education on-line learning situations.

It is far easier to **** and "be lazy" in most classroom situations than it is in any of the on-line courses that I've taken at the Masters level. Due to the inability to apply "closed book" testing in on-line learning, the requirements on reading, comprehension, and especially properly expressing one's knowledge and opinions in writing are weighed much more heavily than in face-to-face learning. Anyone who says that on-line learning is too easy has never experienced it at a higher educational level.

raross

jdmurray wrote:

raross wrote:

From my experience the people who take online classes and ofcourse this is a generalization but are extremely lazy. That is why they are taking the online classes instead of the real thing.

In my opinion, your "experience" reflects a complete lack of experience with higher-education on-line learning situations.

It is far easier to **** and "be lazy" in most classroom situations than it is in any of the on-line courses that I've taken at the Masters level. Due to the inability to apply "closed book" testing in on-line learning, the requirements on reading, comprehension, and especially properly expressing one's knowledge and opinions in writing are weighed much more heavily than in face-to-face learning. Anyone who says that on-line learning is too easy has never experienced it at a higher educational level.

Like I said, from an under graduate point of view. Maybe it is different with masters? I dont know.

^^

garv221

You can never go wrong with an education.

keatron

raross wrote:

jdmurray wrote:

jaeusm wrote:

It takes more motivation and discipline to get through an online course, which usually results in learning more.

This is basically true. On-line learning is "self-directed" rather than "instructor-directed." It therefore takes more "self-motivation" and "self-discipline" to make it through an on-line course than the equivalent classroom course (IMHO).

I dont find this true at all for many reasons. Sure you could go through the book and complete the tests online and even pass the course. But lectures at "good" uni's dont come from the textbooks, they come from the professors. Thus you dont learn as much, plus the hands on experience you get at a university. For instance an engineering degree etc.

From my experience the people who take online classes and ofcourse this is a generalization but are extremely lazy. That is why they are taking the online classes instead of the real thing.

For these reasons and many more is why employers look down on "many" of the online degrees.

I don't know of any engineers who will tell me that the hands on experience they got in college was crucial to where they are now. Most of them tell me that everything they learned about engineering they learned on the job. These are engineers ranging from Civil, to Chemical and everything in between.

Consortiums such as ISC2 accepts (and even encourages) online master's programs at certain colleges. Also we have here in Chicago the following colleges; University of Chicago, Depaul, University of Illinois at Chicago, Northwestern University, and Loyola to name a few. All of these schools are top ranked in one or more departments and well respected schools. They also have HUGE online enrollments. Especially in their Master's programs. As a matter of fact, I'm enrolled right now in a Master's program at one of these schools. It is mostly online courses. We actually meet every 2 weeks for one class. All of us have management type jobs. The professor thinks it's the best idea of the 20th century to start doing these distance learnings. We also have on-line collaboration projects. So basically you got mostly executive people, most over 30 with a minimum of a few years experience in management. You wanna talk about some powerful and insightful discussion? You should read some of our collaboration project transcripts. And we do this mostly online. Sometimes (when I'm in town) I'll meet a few of the people for lunch or coffee. And let's not even start talking about networking opportunities. The people that do distance learning like this are usually people too busy at work to do the traditional class room thing. One professor told us that he really gets a lot out of these classes because those of us in there are actually out doing the work. He says that often times in our class he becomes the student and just listens to us. It helps him stay in touch with the real world and real issues we currently deal with. Which helps him in preparing the students in the traditional class room settings (who usually have no experience or minimal experience) for facing those real issues.

determinedgerman

THANK YOU KEATRON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

qsub

Any universities in the states offer all online degrees? I'm in Canada so I wouldn't be able to make any rides down to the states to write exams or anything.

Looking for a course preferably in Networking/Computer Science.

keatron

spfdz wrote:

Any universities in the states offer all online degrees? I'm in Canada so I wouldn't be able to make any rides down to the states to write exams or anything.

Looking for a course preferably in Networking/Computer Science.

A few come to mind, Kaplan, Phoenix, and Capella. You'll certainly need to do some research on all of these, because I don't have any experience with any of them. However, I do have a friend who's been enrolled at Capella for over a year now and she has nothing but good things to say about them. They also got good marks in a Consumer Report issue I was reading sometime last summer.

Munck

There are dozens of good US-based online universities. Check this forum out for more information:

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/