What's wrong with the market?

linuxlover

I'm looking for a 1st Line Support job in the UK and I don't believe what people require for this role. I've been applying since Thursday, so four days now, and have sent 54 applications so far not counting in today. I only received three calls from recruiters without further responses.

I'd say 90% of job requirements have the following on them:
- Active Directory
- Windows Server 2003 /2008 / SBS
- Microsoft Exchange 2007 / 2010

75% have the following:
- VoIP
- MacOS / iPad / Blackberry
- Call logging software knowledge
- 2 years of experience in a similar role

40% have the following:
- Citrix
- WMWare
- ITIL

In return they offer anywhere from 12k - 18k pa, long hours and some weekends. You wouldn't believe some actually list MCSE and CCNA as a requirement. Am I crazy or is all this excessive for a First Line Support position? I mean how do I even get a job with all these requirements? I came here from a foreign country all excited and built-up and now I'm beginning to think it will never happen for me. I don't believe this ****. I have saved up enough money to support myself for 4 to 5 months without work, looks like it's going right down the toilet. I'm applying for those 10% of jobs out there without AD/Server, minimum wages, positions that I know I am very much qualified for but still nothing.

Master Of Puppets

linuxlover wrote: »

I came here from a foreign country all excited and built-up and now I'm beginning to think it will never happen for me.

I don't want this to be interpreted the wrong way but part of it is right here. Where exactly do you come from? From all of Europe, the Brits are probably the ones who are the least fond of foreigners and especially foreigners from certain countries. They would much rather hire someone local. However, usually when you go abroad and you are qualified, people don't mind that much. I am, by no means, saying that this is what is holding you back but I'm pretty sure it plays a role.

Is it possible that there is something not quite right with your resume?

Asif Dasl

I was watching TV there a few weeks ago and they said 1 in 8 people in the UK are born outside of the UK. So they are very used to foreigners arriving looking for jobs. What part of the UK are you in (you can say the north, south, london - nothing specific) - that salary is very low.

I think the UK market is very competitive because there are so many people arriving there looking for work. Irish people generally head to London when they can't find work in Ireland - that and there is a huge expat community there.

You took a big risk going to the UK without a job lined up, have you looked at contracting jobs also? You've only been looking for 4 days, it's a little early to panic IMO.

pevangel

I would just apply for them anyway. We have a listing for an entry level position that requires 2 years networking experience but we hired a kid straight out of high school.

networker050184

Three calls in four days sounds pretty good to me.

linuxlover

Master Of Puppets
I'm coming from another EU country so I don't think that's the problem. I'm White, born European and don't need any work permits or visas. If anything this could be held against me since there are so many foreigners, mostly Indians, working in IT who I assume would prefer to hire one of their own over me.

Asif Dasl
I've worked and saved up money so that I can sustain myself without work for some time because getting a job from a foreign country is mission impossible. I think we discussed just that in a thread from few days ago. I've positioned myself in London because it's very easy to travel throughout the country from here, I'm looking for jobs anywhere not just in London.

I know it's been a week, but still this is a good indicator of how things are.

pevangel
Perhaps, if my CV could somehow magically pass through the fascist screening process of them recruiters. They're nothing but sales people so I don't expect much from them, but all the jobs are listed by them and not by companies themselves.

networker050184
I'm still waiting for that follow-up call which was promised and I got a finger instead.

EDIT: Now I'm studying for 70-680 (to get my MCSA W7) to increase my callback chances. In the mean time I'm all alone here freezing in a room without heating that costs an arm and a leg, smoking half a pack a day taking luke warm showers every other day. You start thinking about all kinds of things you know. I'll try and be patient for 30 days and then I'll see what to do next.

networker050184

You haven't even been applying for a week yet. Give it some time and have a little patience. I've never found a job that quick.

linuxlover

I just got another call, so I hope this trend will continue and things will pick up soon. I'm aware of that networker050184 but my point here was how silly requirements are for such a position. Is it like this in America as well?

Asif Dasl

See if it were me I would stay outside London and travel in if I had an interview. You see all those people looking for your Oyster cards when you are getting off at tube stations? They are working poor, and it's the same in any world city like New York or Tokyo (I have yet to visit, but I'm sure it's the same as NY & London). Any world city is cosmopolitan and really expensive. I'm sorry to hear you are freezing your butt off at the moment, but I'm sure you will find something and things will get better for you. Keep your head in the books and keep applying for jobs. I wish you luck.

Edit - I think the silly requirements are universal, employers want you as qualified as possible and pay you as little as possible - just keep applying and something will turn up then make the most of it.

Tyb

Also, I've noticed most employer's job postings have:
Required - A,B and C
Preferred D - Z

srabiee

I agree that MCSE for an entry-level position is a joke. Sounds like they are really stretching on that one. (Unless for some odd reason the pay rate is substantial?)

Just keep searching and don't let anyone jerk you around on stuff like that. If a company wants an MCSE or a VCP-DCV engineer, they're going to have to pay accordingly.

edzyyy

It's like that everywhere, OP. They've snuck level 2 roles into level 1 positions while still offering level 1 pay. I don't really mind the requirements, but they're some things you just can't learn at home or read in a book.

Issues you'll run into in an office setting are way different than what you'll run into at home.

A lot of employers don't really understand that.

linuxlover

I came across such a ridiculous job ad that I wanted to take a screen shot and post it here but I operate with limited resources on my EEE 1GB RAM nettop. It was a 1st - 3rd Line Position that asked for whole bunch of stuff for 12k pa which is like minimum wage here in the UK. They wanted a 3rd Line Engineer and pay him as a 1st Line, I don't know who actually applies for these kinds of jobs. Not to mention how many ads I see that list some bespoke software I've never heard of in my life and I was practically raised by computers.

Asif Dasl
London was actually most convenient for me since I can easily travel across the UK from London Bridge, King's Cross...if I were to set somewhere outside I would spend a lot of money just to get into London to take those trains out of London. So for me as an immigrant without a car, London is the best option. I would prefer to get a job somewhere else to be honest, I would save on transportation for sure and life here isn't that quality really. People pay a fortune to be in the center of the world even if it means being packed like sardines living in a house where you can't close the front doors properly and suspicious people hang around after dark. Well, thanks for the words of encouragement my Irish brother. I'm sure something will come up but it's hard to stay focused in a situation like this, mind wanders off quickly.

linuxlover

Don't want to open another thread, so I'll use this one for my personal issues.

What do you think about starting my IT career at a job working with bespoke software/services? How would that benefit or hurt my chances for progress? It is a technical job but it's for their custom made software, it's not normal Windows TS. So if there's no room for progress and I decide to change jobs, will that hurt me in finding a different higher paying job or will I have to look for helpdesk again and start all over? What's your take on this?

thenjduke

linuxlover the American market is very similiar. I agree with the requirements that some of these companies want. I have to say though I have applied for jobs before that listed requirements I did not have and was able to pass the interview process. The problem is that HR just takes a job description and puts certifications on it. What is really interesting is that my son is in high school and they have CCNA classes he is taking that when he finishes them he will be CCNA. Just keep your head up high buddy and you will land a gig. I been in this market for 22 years now and when I first started it was a different time. I could go from job to job but once this market turned around I had to start to focus really on my skill set and I did. Just keep working at it will change trust me.

DissonantData

And where exactly is the CCNA on that list? Perpahps VoIP counts as Cisco?

Cert Poor

I seriously doubt a 1st-line technical employee will be doing the same level of Active Directory/Windows Server work as a domain admin, so when these job listings put down "Active Directory" or "Windows Server" they really just mean the "Active Directory Users and Computers" management snap-in for unlocking accounts and resetting passwords and maybe creating/terminating users. Maybe basic group maintenance.

And when they list "VoIP" they aren't looking for a senior telecom network engineer but probably just someone who knows what it is and maybe someone who can reset voicemail passwords.

When they list "Citrix" they aren't looking for a full-time Citrix expert but someone who can do basic troubleshooting supporting applications that are virtualized in Citrix XenApp, most likely.

All of those things can be learned in 5 minutes. Maybe 30 minutes. Maybe a couple hours. Either way, no big deal.

Don't let the job listings deter you. They seem to be BS a lot of the times and want somebody "already perfectly trained" but if you are someone who can learn all that stuff on Day 1, then is it not logical to hire that person anyway?

You're doing great! Never give up!

linuxlover

Well thanks everyone, I really appreciate it. I would buy you all a beer if I could, maybe some day. Either way, I do agree with what you're saying and yes @Cert Poor I do understand that, however my biggest problem are recruiters. They don't forwards all applications to the employer, that's where my chances decrease. To come back to what @Cert Poor is saying, what if I list AD DS on my CV and then I get config&admin questions on the interview that I can't answer, I'll just look like a fool or someone faking his way into a job.

Today, I had to take a psycho-metric assessment (kind of like Lumosity games) as part of my application. That's some crazy stuff, took me more than an hour to complete. For a moment I wasn't sure if it was a trick to get me to partake in this or whether it was really a part of an application. I'll find out next week though.

Funny how I used to worry about the interview and I would browse around looking for tips compiling my interview Q&A to prepare myself, now I see the biggest problem is actually getting a damn interview haha.

I do have an additional question, which I posted above, regarding taking a job that doesn't do regular TS but involves supporting bespoke software. Should I one day decide to continue my career somewhere else, could this hurt my chances in getting a decent job? Or is it better to ignore these types of jobs and going for regular desk support?

edzyyy

Cert Poor wrote: »

I seriously doubt a 1st-line technical employee will be doing the same level of Active Directory/Windows Server work as a domain admin, so when these job listings put down "Active Directory" or "Windows Server" they really just mean the "Active Directory Users and Computers" management snap-in for unlocking accounts and resetting passwords and maybe creating/terminating users. Maybe basic group maintenance.

And when they list "VoIP" they aren't looking for a senior telecom network engineer but probably just someone who knows what it is and maybe someone who can reset voicemail passwords.

When they list "Citrix" they aren't looking for a full-time Citrix expert but someone who can do basic troubleshooting supporting applications that are virtualized in Citrix XenApp, most likely.

All of those things can be learned in 5 minutes. Maybe 30 minutes. Maybe a couple hours. Either way, no big deal.

Don't let the job listings deter you. They seem to be BS a lot of the times and want somebody "already perfectly trained" but if you are someone who can learn all that stuff on Day 1, then is it not logical to hire that person anyway?

You're doing great! Never give up!

In a perfect world, yes.


Two problems, though.


1. HR & recruiters not really knowing anything about the position & just matching key words from resumes to the description.

So yeah, the active directory portion of the level 1 gig might be resetting passwords & deleting accounts, but if you don't have those 2 key words on your resume.. it goes in the recycle bin.


2. IT managers not wanting to train any more... Seems like 99% of them want someone to come in running and mesh in with the team on day 1.


This goes back to my first post about only knowing how to do office oriented stuff in the office.

Certain things you'll never learn in a book and only on the job.

gorebrush

Welcome to the UK. Yes I've found that job specs are a bit over-optimistic.

Just keep applying. Apply for everything. You never know where it may lead.

miroa12004

linuxlover wrote: »

Is it like this in America as well?

Just read my post history

loxleynew

To get your "foot int he door" past HR you can use some tricks. First you can put down "studying for CCNA" or "preparing to take the MCDST" or whatever cert you are interested in. Obviously know a little about it and the basics so int he interview you can speak on it, but you don't have to be an expert.

Also like mentioned previously above you should just put down on your resume AD experience and server experience even if you only have the most basic of knowledge. As long as you are applying for a level 1 position then it's true you know that level of knowledge. If you go into the level 1 interview and they start asking you how to cluster servers then obv. they lied and it's not level 1 and it's their fault. True it wastes your times and theirs but it's the best way to get the interviews you want.

As for taking specific netapp or software jobs that are not mainstream, right now you have no job so if one is offered you should take it but continue to look for another more suitable job. If it comes along relatively fast like a few months then switch and you don't have to put that original one on your resume if you dont want. Sounds sketchy but whatever most of the companies are sketchy. Play the game or give up