How do you fight skill fade??

Ch@rl!3m0ng · September 2012

Hi Guys,

Thought this would be an interesting topic. We as IT proffessonal are always learning. Be it Microsoft, Cisco, linux or any other number of technologies. Unless you are always working with what you are certified in, you will start to loose the knowledge that you have spent time and money gaining.

I would like to get everyones intake on how they retain their knowledge??

I pesonally do alot of studying at home. (As do most of us) I try to keep any labs I set up, so that I can always go back to them and re-run through them. Failing that I like to keep the notes I make to have a look at and jog the old brain cells.

What are you thoughts and methods for retaining knowledge???

NetworkVeteran · September 2012

I have flashcards. 5-10 minutes/day is enough for 92% retention of a strong base of knowledge. Less over time. Mine covers CCNA, CCNP, CCIP, and many other networking factoids.

Spaced repetition is theoretically and practically quite effective.

Essendon · September 2012

I dont fight it, if I dont need it I let it fade. You'll know this too, but when studying for the EA you'd have gone through all that NAP stuff or through the RRAS stuff in the MCSA. How many people actually use that? I just studied it because I needed to, to pass the exam. I dont need to remember it anymore.

Sometimes it feels like some of these certs I have are useless for the most part. What part of the EA have I put to use at work, 5% of it. But I need to have them to be able to get past the HR filter. I guess people working for smaller MSP's may be able to use the knowledge more than someone like me who works for a large MSP. The VCP is an exception, all that I studied for it is real world. I actively use the knowledge gained from the certification. If Microsoft had certs more like the VCP/VCAP, I'm sure more people would study for them and be tempted to keep upgrading them. I have NO intention of upgrading my EA, because I wouldnt be able to put the knowledge to any use.

It's good you keep notes you made and run through them, more knowledge never hurt! How do you keep the labs, I keep blowing them away and build new ones to suit the next cert/topic.

Ch@rl!3m0ng · September 2012

That sounds like a very good idea. Flash cards instead of pages of notes. In fact think i may have to start making some.

Ch@rl!3m0ng · September 2012

Essendon wrote: »

I dont fight it, if I dont need it I let it fade. You'll know this too, but when studying for the EA you'd have gone through all that NAP stuff or through the RRAS stuff in the MCSA. How many people actually use that? I just studied it because I needed to, to pass the exam. I dont need to remember it anymore.

Sometimes it feels like some of these certs I have are useless for the most part. What part of the EA have I put to use at work, 5% of it. But I need to have them to be able to get past the HR filter. I guess people working for smaller MSP's may be able to use the knowledge more than someone like me who works for a large MSP. The VCP is an exception, all that I studied for it is real world. I actively use the knowledge gained from the certification. If Microsoft had certs more like the VCP/VCAP, I'm sure more people would study for them and be tempted to keep upgrading them. I have NO intention of upgrading my EA, because I wouldnt be able to put the knowledge to any use.

It's good you keep notes you made and run through them, more knowledge never hurt! How do you keep the labs, I keep blowing them away and build new ones to suit the next cert/topic.

This is true for alot of the stuff that you do for MS. When Am labbing I normally use the same VM's and just expand the amount of VM's am using. I have a small NAS (4TB) which when have finished using the VM's I archive them off to it. I think if i keep going at this rate i may have to invest in a SAN!!!!

While this is probably common practice for MS stuff (Letting the knowledge fade) as some of it is never used in the real world stuff like Cisco and Linux in my view does not normally have this problem.

KenC · September 2012

This is actually a big problem (for me anyway), in particular if it is something you have just studied as an exam objective. Documentation is key.

jmritenour · September 2012

I'm kind of with Essendon - if it's not in regular use, I let it go. I've only got so many brain cells, after all.

I don't know if I let stuff fade so much as I replace it with something else. There are things I used to do regularly 7-8 years ago as a desktop tech that are totally irrelevant to what I'm doing today, and I probably would have to rack my brain to remember half of it. It was a great skillset that served me well back in the day, but now, it has to make way for stuff like subnetting and PowerShell that is more useful to my daily tasks.

NetworkVeteran · September 2012

jmritenour wrote: »

I'm kind of with Essendon - if it's not in regular use, I let it go. I've only got so many brain cells, after all.

It's true that one need not remember everything. Some information--such as a client's phone number or how to repair 5.25" disk drives--may only be transient. However, remembering what we use regularly isn't enough imho. When a fire strikes, we'd better remember how to actually use a fire extinguisher (if you've never learned, it's not as obvious as it looks!). When a protocol's not working, we'd better remember how to troubleshoot it, and not have to Google it. But fine point, that the first step, is deciding if something's worth remembering at all.

jibbajabba · September 2012

It depends if I still enjoy these topics. If not then I let it fade ... my MS exams for example. I forgot all about NAP and what not - been four years since I passed my SA/EA. I was even tempted to remove them from my CV. At the end I enjoy VMware a lot more and retention comes by itself de to me enjoying labbing etc.

It just shows what I always say - no point in pursuing a certification just for the sake of it or because there is demand. You should always pursue certs of topics you love and become
expert in them - retention becomes natural.

Psoasman · September 2012

I maintain a lab and have copies of my notes saved from most of my certs and school studies to go over. I agree with jmritenour in that I replace knowledge with knowledge that I need. I am rapidly replacing the mostly worthless CIW certs from WGU, with more relevant knowledge.

DevilWAH · September 2012

I learn the theory and build up my knowledge from first principles. This way skills never fade, only need a gently reminder to get back in to.

Its a bit like riding a bike or skating, while I can no longer cycle on the back wheel for half a mile, I still know how to ride a bike and the it involves.

It is not about understanding facts and figures, its about the underlying \ fundamentals, cause these never change you just some times updated. And then learning the OS layout of the devices you work on. If you have this then its a simple process to go back to things you haven't touched for a while and work with them.

blargoe · September 2012

Essendon wrote: »

I dont fight it, if I dont need it I let it fade.

Exactly...

Claymoore · September 2012

I learn new skills to replace the old ones.

undomiel · September 2012

DevilWAH wrote: »

It is not about understanding facts and figures, its about the underlying \ fundamentals, cause these never change you just some times updated.

This is the key right here. Understand the theory and fundamentals then you'll be able to figure out the how this particular tool works pretty easily when you need it. It's something that I heard in art school a lot and I've found it to be true in IT. In art school it was all about learning color theory and design principles, learning brush technique and Photoshop was secondary since anyone with the basics will be able to pick up a program and learn how to make some good designs with it. I see it in IT like where you understand how a firewall works or how NAT works then you'll be able to figure out how to build a rule in a Cisco device, a SonicWall device, or even some no name Linux based device using iptables. Albeit if you're using iptables it would be a good idea to look at the documentation.

NetworkVeteran · September 2012

DevilWAH wrote: »

I learn the theory.. It is not about understanding facts and figures, its about the underlying \ fundamentals, cause these never change you just some times updated.

The theory of a feature or protocol consists mostly of a collection of facts, to which, when designing or troubleshooting networks, you apply reasoning skills.

1. What does "LLQ" stand for?
2. LLQ adds strict priority queuing to what existing queuing method?
3. What basic QoS tool does LLQ rely on to avoid starving other queues?
4. Can you configure LLQ for multiple classes of traffic in the same policy-map?
5. True/False: LLQ supports more than one strict priority queue.
6. What scheduling method is used within a strict priority queue?
7. What command enables LLQ for a traffic class and allocates it 64 kbps?
8. What command enables LLQ for a traffic class and allocates it 25% of bandwidth?
9. What command displays information about LLQ on interface s0/0?

Knowing related facts will, of course, improve how well you can retain and apply the above, assuming it's important to know when to use LLQ and how to config/troubleshoot it.

Roguetadhg · September 2012

Flash cards. I use CueCard (Freeware). I've been Obscenely obsessed with trying to retain the knowledge that has taken me months to learn.

I'm experimenting with the cards now with CCNA:Security. So far, I can say it's actually helping. In a big way. I make the questions not yes or no answered. I try to keep the questions as open ended, while pointing myself in the direction as to "What" I "Want".

My current card:

"The early stages of Designing and Implementing networks should have basic guidelines. What are these (4) guidelines?"

Audits, Policies, Least Privilege, Defense in Depth.

It's actually "Separation of Duties" not "Policies". I'd click the "Incorrect" button, and it'll keep a record of the percent I keep missing that question, and bring that up more often than the ones I always get correct:

"At all times, 'Networking Security' has three objectives. At the core, what the concepts for Networking Security?"
Confidentiality, Integrity, Accessibility (C.I.A).

It's pretty sweet deal.

DevilWAH · September 2012

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

The theory of a feature or protocol consists mostly of a collection of facts, to which, when designing or troubleshooting networks, you apply reasoning skills.

1. What does "LLQ" stand for?
2. LLQ adds strict priority queuing to what existing queuing method?
3. What basic QoS tool does LLQ rely on to avoid starving other queues?
4. Can you configure LLQ for multiple classes of traffic in the same policy-map?
5. True/False: LLQ supports more than one strict priority queue.
6. What scheduling method is used within a strict priority queue?
7. What command enables LLQ for a traffic class and allocates it 64 kbps?
8. What command enables LLQ for a traffic class and allocates it 25% of bandwidth?
9. What command displays information about LLQ on interface s0/0?

Knowing related facts will, of course, improve how well you can retain and apply the above, assuming it's important to know when to use LLQ and how to config/troubleshoot it.

Low Latency Queuing (LLQ) is a feature developed by Cisco to bring strict priority queuing (PQ) to Class-Based Weighted Fair Queuing (CBWFQ). LLQ allows delay-sensitive data (such as voice) to be given preferential treatment over other traffic by letting the data to be dequeued and sent first.^[1]

all you need is to understand that comment, not know it as a memory, but understand it, to be able to visualize a network that has it configured and see the packets in your mind obey its laws and logic. Then the surrounding facts you mention become common sense. No longer individual facts collected together but a single simple idea.

The wonderful thing about IT is it is all simply 0 and 1's yes/no answers. Learning is a simple case or breaking an idea down to these very basic fundamentals Very soon you relies that all it is the same, all very simple and the only thing that changes is the interface and the application.

it_consultant · September 2012

Skill fade happens. I have found that being able to very quickly read the manuals for something I haven't done in a while serves as the refresher that I need to get the job done. Even Doctors refer to the manual when they have too.

NetworkVeteran · September 2012

Devil, I don't mean to offend, but that sounds like nonsense to me.

You can read that statement twenty times over, grasp every word of it completely, and you won't magically know all the facts from #3 - #9. If you let your knowledge fade to the point that all that remains is that description of LLQ--then you're no longer capable of designing, configuring, or troubleshooting that feature without some form of outside help.

DevilWAH · September 2012

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Devil, I don't mean to offend, but that sounds like nonsense to me.

You can read that statement twenty times over, grasp every word of it completely, and you won't magically know all the facts from #3 - #9. If you let your knowledge fade to the point that all that remains is that description of LLQ--then you're no longer capable of designing, configuring, or troubleshooting that feature without some form of outside help.

OH lets assume you know every command how to set up LLQ by the book for a CISCO router... Now let me hand you a 3COM device.. or a juniper... or extream... are you going to learn every comman on every device possible??

however if you have a understanding of how LLQ works and what it is used for on the network you can trouble shoot it no matter what system you are presented with.

If I need to trouble shoot a network, i don't start by thinking what commands I might need to use, I start by looking at the symptoms and logicaly working out using knowledge off the technologies in use the possible causes. The same if i need to set up a network, If you know what the limits and specifications of a technology are, you don't need to know the specific command to design and trouble shoot the system. The specifics can been "worked" out as you go along. And while commands are specific and will be forgotten over time unless reinforced. Understanding of things are based on a different type of memory and are normally much better retained over time.

The classic example of this is in maths.

you could learn the Fibonacc sequence by just remebering ever number until they get to large with out ever knowing the theory behind it.

1,1,2,3,5,8,13........

but while you might remember 20 or 30 in the sequence, stop reciting it for a few months and you will forget.

learn the theory that it starts at 1 and each number is the sum of the two proceeding numbers. And not only at any one time will you be able to recite it to any length required, but 10 years down the line as long as you can remember that short simple rule you can still work it out if needed, with out cluttering up your memories. Its also a lot quicker to learn.

NetworkVeteran · September 2012

DevilWAH wrote: »

OH lets assume you know every command how to set up LLQ by the book for a CISCO router... Now let me hand you a 3COM device.. or a juniper... or extream... are you going to learn every comman on every device possible??

Devil, that's silly on so many counts. First, observe that only one third of those facts were commands. Second, one's options are not limited to learning only marketing blurbs or learning everything. Third, I work on a team, so personal expertise in every area isn't necessary.

Devil wrote:

if you have a understanding of how LLQ works and what it is used for on the network you can trouble shoot it no matter what system you are presented with.

Devil, this is what you presented as understanding--

Devil wrote:

Low Latency Queuing (LLQ) is a feature developed by Cisco to bring strict priority queuing (PQ) to Class-Based Weighted Fair Queuing (CBWFQ). LLQ allows delay-sensitive data (such as voice) to be given preferential treatment over other traffic by letting the data to be dequeued and sent first.

If you are armed with only that, you will be less effective than if you were armed with the nine facts I gave. (Note: I'm not presenting those 9 facts as the Valhalla of LLQ knowledge!)

DevilWAH · September 2012

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Devil, this is what you presented as understanding--

As i said in a previous quote

you need is to understand, not know it as a memory, but understand it, to be able to visualize a network that has it configured and see the packets in your mind obey its laws and logic. Then the surrounding facts and configuration become common sense, no longer individual facts collected together but a simple single idea.

I am not saying you should only know that one sentence i posted from Wikipedia about LLQ, but that you should "understand" what LLQ is, and why it was developed.

I work around lots of scientists, and what is notices is that there are two types.

Those who know facts and can recite information like parrots. They have a vast understanding of subjects but struggle to come up with new ideas, as there "understanding" is based purely static facts.

Then there are the ones who are much more idea based than facts. When they talk about their subjects they can on the fly take in new information and weave it in to there current knowledge to expand and develop there ideas.

What you see is the second class are with out exception the most successful of the two. They are able to approach a problem with an open mine, and looking at the whole picture, and then focus collating there knowledge in to a solution.

As Einstein would say "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler".

And that's exactly the point, you learn about a topic, you read around it, learn how it works, and then form a single concept around it in you head, from which with out external help you can rebuild the entire topic back up in your mind.

Ch@rl!3m0ng · September 2012

Wow massive response to this question. I kinda agree with devil, in that if you understand how something work then you can make an educated decission of what to do. Working with something and knowing how to do it are one thing where as remembering facts is also useful and it was this that I was getting at. I some times struggle to recall the facts but if you sit me infront of a system I would be able to setup configure or troubleshoot it.

veritas_libertas · September 2012

Interesting discussion. I've been thinking about this lately since it's been about a month since I touched my study material for the CCNA. I'm starting to get back into it after taking time off spend with the family and help around the house.

JDMurray · September 2012

The skills are fading because you don't need them or are not interested in them or both. If you don't feel motivated to renew your interest a skill, learn something new to take it place, and possibly push your career in a new direction in the process.

adfabus · September 2012

Sounds like a great idea!

Essendon wrote: »

I dont fight it, if I dont need it I let it fade. You'll know this too, but when studying for the EA you'd have gone through all that NAP stuff or through the RRAS stuff in the MCSA. How many people actually use that? I just studied it because I needed to, to pass the exam. I dont need to remember it anymore.

Sometimes it feels like some of these certs I have are useless for the most part. What part of the EA have I put to use at work, 5% of it. But I need to have them to be able to get past the HR filter. I guess people working for smaller MSP's may be able to use the knowledge more than someone like me who works for a large MSP. The VCP is an exception, all that I studied for it is real world. I actively use the knowledge gained from the certification. If Microsoft had certs more like the VCP/VCAP, I'm sure more people would study for them and be tempted to keep upgrading them. I have NO intention of upgrading my EA, because I wouldnt be able to put the knowledge to any use.

It's good you keep notes you made and run through them, more knowledge never hurt! How do you keep the labs, I keep blowing them away and build new ones to suit the next cert/topic.

onesaint · September 2012

I think Essendon had it right.

I find that things I needed to learn (and know off hand) some years back aren't as useful as I move up in my career and so they get moved out for new things. An example, knowing the A/B pinout for RJ-45. It's useful and was when I was pulling more cable as a Jr. Admin. However it's not as useful to know since I hardly ever pull cable anymore. So, move it out and make room for something like Regex, which I use a lot more these days.

Again though, as others have mentioned, a quick review of notes (I use Evernote to keep most of it) brings me up to date on previous studies. I try to take very detailed notes with annotations by the more pertinent points, which helps.

phoeneous · September 2012

2013 is all CCNP for me, need to get some flashcards.

I have nunchuck skill fade.

N2IT · September 2012

I let those skills fade I don't need. Like Clay mentioned I replace them with new ones. Skills that get you paid more money.

How do you fight skill fade??

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