How to tell my employer to pay for my "unofficial" work

yzT

Since mid June, I've been meeting with the CEO of a company about brand new services they are going to provide, services which I will be responsible for.


During this past month I have been spending lot of time researching the market, thinking which services we're going to provide, etc. The CEO is going on vacation in few days so he wants me to start working officially on September 1, but, also he wants me to do some work while he's on vacation like preparing Power Point presentation to show our services to the clients, write a template for a pentesting report, research the SIEM market and a couple of things more.


I know he's not going to pay me for the time spent before September. He thinks like those tasks are not part of the job, but just a preparation of what is going to come in September. However, they're part of the job, and he should pay me.

Today I took my chances and tried to get a little raise (2k) before signing the contract, arguing that my first offer was about a technical position but now it's a combination of technical and management, but he denied the raise with some good statements I hadn't think about.

I don't want to look greedy, just want to get what I deserve. What makes me feel bad is that he didn't care about my little experience and gave me this great opportunity, which is a really good risk to him if I (we) fail to do implement the business model.

What's your opinion of my situation? What would you do? Tomorrow I'm meeting with him again to sign the contract, and really don't know what to do

Plantwiz

I think you may find yourself downsized.

Probably best to start looking for another job. From what I read, I do not see why anything you are doing is requiring additional pay. Obviously, whatever you were hired for is not occupying ALL your working hours, and therefore the company feels you have the skills and abilities to assist on a different project.

If it were me, I would do all I was asked to do that pertained to work, I do not understand this "unofficial" work. At one time, "unofficial" work meant compromising favors or such for one of power, so if being asked to do anything that benefits the company is now considered "unofficial" I am wondering what the latter is considered?


Did you ever consider your employer LIKES your input, and this assignment isn't punishment, but rather a way to test your abilities to developed a new role for you in the next year?





Wait

yzT wrote:

I know he's not going to pay me for the time spent before September. He thinks like those tasks are not part of the job, but just a preparation of what is going to come in September. However, they're part of the job, and he should pay me.

Did you NOT receive any pay during this time? Because if you were not paid, then I will adjust my answer, but if you received a paycheck during this time, my comment stands.

Asif Dasl

I think you had a similar post about this "business proposition". But the more accurate assessment is that this person is older than you, and they have the money for this opportunity that you don't. You look at it as a paycheck, they look at you as an expense and you are going to have to pay your way.

Now they wont pay you until September cause the boss is away and you are not on equal footing for starters. He owns the business if it's successful, you own the failure if it's not successful - so either way he wins. You think it'll work out because you don't have much experience and if it works out it's a shortcut. I think you would be better finding an actual job or setting up the business yourself if it's that lucrative. If I'm wrong in my assessment please tell me where and we'll hammer it out before tomorrow?

colemic

@plantwiz this thread has background info: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/102006-have-you-ever-signed-pre-contract.html#post863709

@OP, did you sign the pre-contract agreement? Or is this meeting to sign that document?

imo, you have put yourself in a bad situation... you signed an agreement, which did not include compensation (as far as I know) for the 'pre'work you are doing now.

edit - agree w/ asif.

If you can walk away, I would. There really isn't an upside for you in this.

Danielm7

I would be very concerned about someone asking me to do months worth of work, for free, before I even start a job. My biggest worry is they would use the power point templates and pen test outlines to sell services, then just outsource them to another security company, using you for the sales material work and never even bringing you on.

GoodBishop

Payment should be for hours worked. If he asks you to do work, then you need to say "show me the money!"

TeKniques

Just read the other thread and my impression is that something just doesn't seem right here. What I would do is not sign that contract, but rather tell the CEO that you want to have it reviewed by an attorney first. It's in your best interest, and unless this is an offer for some insane amount of money that you just can't pass up I would start looking for other options.

Unless you signed any sort of agreement for compensation prior to starting the actual job I think you're out on collecting the money.

cyberguypr

Said it in the other thread and will says it again: extremely weird deal you got going on. Don't take this wrong, but the word that came to my mind was actually "stupid". Not calling you that, just that the situation seems stupid as it lacks common sense. How on earth does anyone expect a person to work for free is beyond me. You start in September, so that's when preparation starts. If he wants stuff done now, he needs to pay you now.

I don't want to jump to conclusions too early but my gut tells me once you do this "pre-work" there will be some sort of issue where he will rescind the offer. I bet this will happen on August 30th.

Plantwiz

colemic wrote: »

@plantwiz this thread has background info: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/102006-have-you-ever-signed-pre-contract.html#post863709

Thanks colemic,

Oh good grief...something doesn't add up right about this situation. At this point, to me, it seems some facts are missing or slanted.

Nevertheless, if it is true, then it is time to move forward...but I do not to think we have a full picture and likely never will have one.

Ukimokia

yzT wrote: »

I don't want to look greedy, just want to get what I deserve. What makes me feel bad is that he didn't care about my little experience and gave me this great opportunity

Along with what everyone else has been saying, he could easily be using this against you. You don't really owe him anything until you've taken the job and see him come through on his end. Employement is a two way agreement, you do work for a company/person and the company/person supplies you with benefits (if any included) and payment. You shouldn't owe him anything.

If someone wants you to do work, and they're not willing to pay you that seems very fishy.

yzT

At the end there was no pre-contract. Tomorrow I'm going to sign the final contract.

Some of you are talking about leaving the job... heck! if I have not even started it! xD

I understand what this guy is doing, he wants to start Sep 1 with everything set and ready to show (sell) the new services to his clients base, the point is that in order to have everything set, time has to be spent, whose time? Mine.

There isn't anything fishy, just that with his hurry attitude to start to sell services ASAP, he is not bearing in mind that these things have a work before.

Tomorrow, depending on the situation, I'm going to tell him about this. Otherwise, I will just do the Power Point. Power Point that he's not getting till Sep 1 anyway.

Plantwiz

What is fishy is the 'not-paid' part.

If you were an employee, then you should be paid. If you were hired for contract work, then you are paid based upon the agreement.

Obviously, something about this situation seemed to be in your interest when you started, I only know of volunteers who work without payment...and frequently their payment is in other forms (gratification, knowledge gain, networking, etc...)

If everything is on the up and up, then I do not see why you have any apprehension.

Asif Dasl

The only thing I would say in addition to what has already been said, is - there is a whole thread, full of people saying somethings not right - so you must be working with some details that are not apparent to us for you to be still confident to go ahead. I don't know what kind of training you have to do pen-testing but I do know you'd need more than Security+.

I don't think anybody is trying to rain on your parade - it's just somethings not right for someone to promise you a director of security position and management of other people with just Sec+. For business opportunities, you usually have to bring something to the table, such as money or experience worth something to the business owner. I suspect you will go ahead anyways so keep this thread updated with how you get on...

Polynomial

yzT wrote: »

I don't want to look greedy, just want to get what I deserve. What makes me feel bad is that he didn't care about my little experience and gave me this great opportunity, which is a really good risk to him if I (we) fail to do implement the business model.

There's no risk to him. With this frankly insane story you've told us, it's all you buddy.

Hammer80

Dude you're getting screwed. The only people I do free work for are family, friends, some good cause for which I hope i get some karma from. This guy is filling your head and yea sorry just like everybody else has said no way are you becoming a real Director of Security with just a Security+, this reminds of companies with a sales teams where everybody is a Vice President. Even if you are putting in your dues you are still getting paid, he is asking for you to work for the next 2 months for free that is insane unless it's a killer internship which allows you to get your hands on everything under the sun and it opens doors for you left and right. I say walk and find something else. Not to sound like that but you saying that you understand what he's doing is crap, you are playing checkers while he is playing chess, the only person that stands to benefit from this arrangement is him. If this is even remotely legit than have that contract be reviewed by either a lawyer , accountant not a bookkeeper but an actual accountant, or a paralegal. All three of those will be well versed in reading contracts and legal language.

Cisc0kidd

Yep, things just don't add up. Looks like this guy is using you to sketch out his plan and then drop you like a hot potato.

xnx

Dodgy as ****

iBrokeIT

If he needs this stuff done now why can't he pay you now? If the pay can wait so can the work.

Nemowolf

yzT wrote: »

At the end there was no pre-contract. Tomorrow I'm going to sign the final contract.

Some of you are talking about leaving the job... heck! if I have not even started it! xD

I understand what this guy is doing, he wants to start Sep 1 with everything set and ready to show (sell) the new services to his clients base, the point is that in order to have everything set, time has to be spent, whose time? Mine.

There isn't anything fishy, just that with his hurry attitude to start to sell services ASAP, he is not bearing in mind that these things have a work before.

Tomorrow, depending on the situation, I'm going to tell him about this. Otherwise, I will just do the Power Point. Power Point that he's not getting till Sep 1 anyway.

So im not disagreeing with anyone because i think they are all correct. That aside, I'm more curious as to your line of thinking.

Your signing a contract to do work starting effective September 1st. That gives you approximately 1 month of time between now and then, are you on an existing contract or employed by them that IS paying you for work being done? I think part of confusion is that we don't have a full picture of the situation because your trying to answer questions and give us "pertinent" details.

So if you are currently on another contract, why not bill the work you are doing for the next contract to the current contract since you clearly have continued business with this client? If you are not currently on contract or employed, why are you working without being employed or contracted?



My 2-cents is that if you value yourself and your time, you charge for your work. What you are conveying to us is that you want/need to work for free to keep this contract and that means you don't value your own work or time and neither does your employer since they obviously want to get free work out of you.

Either way, i would consider bring up the advanced timeline and ask to have the contract start much sooner to reflect the CEO's desire to have lead time for R&D.

yzT

Contract broken (literally).

So today I went to sign the contract and first of all, I noticed his hurry to make me sign. He gave me a copy and he started "well, that's your data, below is your title, on the back is the salary we had agreed and it's a permanent contract, and that's it", but still there were four more pages...

When I was for the second page, he told me that those were just common clauses in a job contract, and when I reached the last page, bingo! the penultimate clause basically said that I couldn't work in a similar position. It didn't state that specifically but it was about "unfair competition" (don't know the English term for this, that's a literal translation). It says that if I leave the company, I couldn't "steal" clients. However, I told him and the HR woman:

"what if a company wants to provide similar services and offers me a better conditions? Then this company does its marketing and some of your clients decide they are offering better services and leave you. And then you know that I'm working for this company and you may argue that it was me the one who "stole" the clients?

Or another scenario, what if I decide to begin my own business and I do a marketing research contacting every possible client? I'm not using your client base but a shotgun approach, however some of your client decide to come to me and leave you. You can say it was "unfair competition" and sue me, so I won't sign this contract".

They tried to contact their lawyer to talk about this clause and see if they could remove it, because guess what? It's a pre-contract and I would sign a new one in September (yesterday the CEO said it was the final contract). The lawyer was busy for ten minutes so I told the HR woman whether she may leave because we had to talk about other things.

First we spoke about the title. The first clause said something like "[...] title of Systems Engineer, which belongs to the group System Engineer of the legal system [...], to perform the functions of Systems Engineer according to the categories of the company". I told him that I wasn't a System Engineer. He argued that in our legal system there is only that group and I told him that that's true, I belong to the Systems Engineer group, but the title and the functions are not System Engineer's functions. He agreed to change the first and third Systems Engineer to Head of Information Security and Security Engineer, respectively.

Then, the conversation was like:

- Me: Another thing. You want the services ready for September 1st, right?
- CEO: Well, I want you to work during this month and then we keep working in September to offer the services as soon as possible.
- Me: But look... I've been researching the market thinking for which services we are going to provide. Now you are telling me that you want me to do a presentation, a presentation which is not trivial. I need to do tests, set a lab, etc, to get screenshots for the presentation. Also you're telling me to research the SIEM market and to write a template for the report of a penetration testing. These tasks are part of my job already. My job is not just to meet with clients and perform the services. I need to prepare things, write documentation, research... What I'm telling you is that I'm not going to do this for free. We start in September or do you need to change my start date to August.
- CEO: (he stands up and get mad): I'm giving your this very great opportunity to grow in the business world, and all what you're doing is to ask me for more and more.
- Me: I'm not asking your for more, I'm just telling you that these tasks you want me to do are part of my job and I'm not going to do them for free
- CEO: (again with the opportunity speak)
- Me: Yes, you're giving me this opportunity. But also I can look for this kind of opportunity elsewhere.
- CEO: Screw you. (and he breaks the contract)


there were a couple of more "lies" that we didn't talk about. For example, he had told me that I had flexibility to work. I could work from home and the hours I wanted. He only care about meet the goals in time. However the contract says I need to work 40h and at their place.

petedude

Cisc0kidd wrote: »

Yep, things just don't add up. Looks like this guy is using you to sketch out his plan and then drop you like a hot potato.

Well, that, and. . .

Something I'm not seeing anyone point out here yet is that it could become more common to do unpaid "work" to get jobs. Internships, work trials, etc. In fact, I'm seeing some well-known and trusted career advisors (e.g. asktheheadhunter.com) advise in favor of finding ways to demonstrate to potential employers that you can do the work. To me, the dividing line is where you feel uncomfortable or getting taken advantage of. if you like a certain employer and/or role enough that you're willing to do a certain amount of prep work to demonstrate competency, fine. The second you feel like you're getting taken, get out. (Personally, I think the more worthwhile potential employers would at least offer up a minimum wage while they're trying you out, but that's just me.) When people try to tie you to contracts beyond basic internship-style waivers, it's probably a bad sign.

Anytime someone is rushing you to sign contracts, it's a bad thing-- whether it's getting a job or buying a car, whatever.

I don't know about the Canary Islands, but in California, non-compete agreements are unenforceable. In most US states, only "reasonable" non-competes are allowed. Then, there's the "burden of proof" thing. I don't know how courts work in the Canary Islands, but if the burden of proof is on the firm you signed the contract with how can they prove you stole clients? Will courts there expect them to prove this solidly if they sue?

And. . . whenever there are contracts involved, go by what's written on paper, not by what anyone says verbally. What people say can be debated, misconstrued, misunderstood, etc.

cyberguypr

Just the type of CEO that we all dream working for

Another one saved by the TE community. You are welcome.

yzT

Our first meeting ended up with me doing a penetration test on their systems. He asked me to do that to show my skills and I agreed knowing that I wouldn't get any buck for it. But all these new things he did want me to do, they were part of the job already. They weren't to demonstrate more skills, like the pentest, but to get income ASAP.

Btw, to all of you interested in my education, I don't have just a Security+. I have a Bachelor and a Master as well.

Danielm7

Sounds like you dodged a bullet on that one. One of those cases of something sounding too good to be true, because it isn't true.

loxleynew

What a shady deal. He wanted to steal your ideas for his own basically. Do you have his client list still? I would send a mass email to them warning them not to do business with him.

Danielm7

loxleynew wrote: »

What a shady deal. He wanted to steal your ideas for his own basically. Do you have his client list still? I would send a mass email to them warning them not to do business with him.

This is a great idea... if you want to get sued. Otherwise just be happy you didn't sign on with them and keep looking for a good opportunity.

MTciscoguy

It is not advisable to try and do harm to their business, in this day and age, companies are suing and winning against people who leave poor reviews on internet websites here in the states and business's are putting "No bad review" clauses in their contracts, I know several websites as well as business owners that have these types of clauses in their agreements.

Just feel good that you found out this before hand and keep looking for what you want, I am sure it is out there, sometimes it takes a lot of crap to wade through to find the good stuff.

Polynomial

Funny. Maybe we were all wrong.

I actually don't see anything unusual from the CEO's point of view. Seems like standard stuff. Lots of miscommunication =P

CyberfiSecurity

It depends on what type of employee you are.

Hourly - Deserve to get paid for those extra working hours
Salary - No, I am sure you signed the agreement on salary employee that you have to provide minimum 40 hours per week.
Contract - Absolutely, you get paid for those hours.

CyberfiSecurity

Danielm7 wrote: »

This is a great idea... if you want to get sued. Otherwise just be happy you didn't sign on with them and keep looking for a good opportunity.

I agree, if you are trying to destroy the business. You'll expect to get sued by your employer. I am sure you have signed the NDA, non-compete, and organizational policy.

colemic

While I certainly don't condone attempting to damage the business, even if signed, I am not sure that an NDA/non-compete/org policy are enforcable if technically you never worked for the company. NDA maybe, but org policy? tell 'em to pound sand... that policy only applies if they have jurisdiction over your activities, which only occurs if you are a paid employee.