Technical school or 4 year college?

aspiringsoul

You would be making a mistake to attend a for-profit college. Trust me, I know. Took me a lot longer to earn a regionally accredited Bachelor than it would have otherwise.

If it's a for profit school....or nationally accredited....then DO NOT enroll.

If it's a public or respected Private school...and it's regionally accredited, then you should consider enrolling.

Do your research before selecting a school. I strongly encourage you to either enroll in a community college, earn an associates and then transfer to a public university, or just go straight to the public university.

Here is a list of for-profit schools, and very comprehensive documentation about the predatory nature of these schools (which is actually perfectly legal at this time):

For-Profit Colleges

diggitle

I went to ITT tech (BS in information security) and have a Job as a penetration tester. It's not the school its the person.
I know plenty of people that went to ECPI, ITT Tech, Devry University, Strayer, Capella, etc that are more successful in IT than the folks that opted to go to "brick and morter" schools like UNC, Duke, RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology), MCC (Monroe community college), CPCC, etc.

Again its the person not the school. Do they cost more? Yes a lot more but so do any private schools. Look at Wake forest, and Gardner Webb, two schools that make ITT techs cost look dwarf.

Per Year Cost --->
Wake Forest Tuition = $46,200
Gardner Webb = $26,690
ITT Tech Tuition = $19,967
Appalachian State = $3,291.50
Western Governors = $2,890 per term
CPCC tuition = $1,153

My take:
Get your A+, Net+ and apply to teksystems, technisource, robert half, or the like. Do lots of contract work. Get exposed to rollouts vs doing help desk. You will meet a lot of people this way and get placed in a permanent job faster. Once you get a solid job go to a school like western governors and get a bachelours degree. Get the certs first, its much faster to get a job with those in my opinion. You will get more $$$ for having all the experience too.

aspiringsoul

Diggitle,

It's not the school, it's the person, I will grant you that. Many of the people that I work, and have worked with have degrees from for-profits, including myself. Nearly all of them regret it....because we know we could have saved so much money attending else where.

I remember my experience at ITT Tech...very well. The materials were old and deprecated. Some of the instructors were completely uninterested in what they were teaching (no doubt because they were paid poorly). A few times our instructors didn't even make it to class. More than half of my cohort dropped out.

By the way, in the 2010 school year at ITT: 33,733 students out of 64,921 dropped out. That is horrible student retention!

My AAS cost: $35,000. I could have earned an Associate degree at a community college for $9,408 (that's for the current cost of $147 per credit so it would have been even cheaper in 2006-2008 when I enrolled at ITT).

So, for the cost of less than $10,000...I could earn an Associates degree from a community college, and then transfer to a public university, without any difficulty transferring my credits.

1. For the 2012 academic year, a typical two-year associate degree with on-campus instruction requires 96 credit hours and costs almost $500 per hour ($48,000 total).
   
   So....for FIVE TIMES as much....I could earn an Associates degree that I can not transfer anywhere else! Is it really worth five times as much!? No, no it's not....
   
   That's not even considering the cost of a bachelor degree at ITT, which as of a couple of years ago COST $93,624!!!!! FAR more than a Bachelor at a Public university.
   
   In 2009, the school spent $252 million on marketing, and received $489 million in profit. These are public traded companies on wallstreet. They don't care about the student...They only care about getting the student signed up for student loans, so that money can go straight to the shareholders pockets!
   
   You might think that the Dean's salary at many Private universities is egregious.
   
   What about the salary of chairmen at ITT?
   
   Kevin M. Modany- Chairmen and CEO, 2009 Compensation: $7,628,172,

   ---

   2010 Compensation: $6,745,967
   Clark D. Elwood- Executive VP and CAO: 2009 Compensation: $1,827,591

   ---

   2010 Compensation: $1,425,939
   
   It's not just ITT Tech...it's nearly every for-profit college on that list. It's all about the bottom line...Many of those companies only care about profit (hence their business model)....not the student.
   
   I encourage any one to read this report before enrolling at ITT Tech:
   
   http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/for_profit_report/PartII/ITT.pdf
   
   And the information here before enrolling at any for-profit:
   
   For-Profit Colleges
   
   
   A couple of interesting videos for you to watch ( a bit funny too): Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Student Debt (HBO) - YouTube
   
   Real Time with Bill Maher: Flip a District Winner - Rep. John Kline (HBO) - YouTube
   
   Diggitle:
   
   You would be blind to ignore the predatory nature of many of these for-profit schools, and disillusioned to continue endorsing it.

darrincreamer@yahoo.com

It is totally up to you. I can tell you that I am 3 months from my bachelor's degree from ITT Tech in Information Systems Cyber-Security. I have had no issues finding and keeping good employment. Yes it is much more expensive than a typical school. ITT is just like any other school. The education you get depends on the how dedicated you are and how much time you put into the work.

I have met people who went to ITT and know little more than a high school kid who built his first computer. I have also met people with 4 year degrees from a university who were the same or worse.

Go with what you can afford and get your associates. Work for a bit and start going for your bachelors. That is what I did and it worked. I have not been without employment since I was a year and a half into my associates.

darrincreamer@yahoo.com

On a side note about ITT is that I did not have to take any of the BS government or history classes like you do at a university.

For those that say ITT credits don't transfer then why, when I was thinking about transferring to Texas A&M central texas (because it was closer to home) were they going to take all of my associates degree credits from ITT and I would have finished in the same amount of time?

aspiringsoul

As an ITT Tech Alumnus, I want to be very clear with my fellow alumni, that I am not trying to discredit your education whatsoever. I'm merely stating that the ROI is far greater for other degrees (especially when they are regionally accredited) and YOUR DEBT will be far greater if you attend a for-profit. I'm not trying to discredit anyone who has already attended or who is attending a for-profit. I'm just attempting to make sure that all potential students are aware of the predatory nature of for-profit schools, and are well informed before making a decision.

I have met people who obtained their criminal justice degrees from ITT Tech as well as Nursing students who were unable to find a job in their field because their degrees are NOT REGIONALLY accredited. Their resumes went straight to the trash bin when applying for positions and competing with applicants with regionally accredited degrees.

There is currently a lawsuit that was filed by the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) against ITT Tech.

FEB 26 2014[h=1]CFPB Sues For-Profit College Chain ITT For Predatory Lending[/h]ITT Pushed Consumers into High-Cost Student Loans Likely to Fail
WASHINGTON, D.C. — Today the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) filed a lawsuit against ITT Educational Services, Inc., accusing the for-profit college chain of predatory student lending. The CFPB alleges that ITT exploited its students and pushed them into high-cost private student loans that were very likely to end in default. The CFPB is seeking restitution for victims, a civil fine, and an injunction against the company.
“ITT marketed itself as improving consumers’ lives but it was really just improving its bottom line,” said CFPB Director Richard Cordray. “We believe ITT used high-pressure tactics to push many consumers into expensive loans destined to default. Today’s action should serve as a warning to the for-profit college industry that we will be vigilant about protecting students against predatory lending tactics.”
Like the mortgage market in the lead-up to the financial crisis, the for-profit college industry may be experiencing misaligned incentives. These colleges benefit when students take out large amounts of loans, regardless of the students’ long-term success. The CFPB is concerned that some of these corporations may be employing practices to coax consumers into taking out more federal and private student loans. Today’s announcement is the Bureau’s first public enforcement action against a company in the for-profit college industry.
ITT Educational Services, Inc. is an Indiana-based for-profit provider of post-secondary technical education. Tens of thousands of students are enrolled online or at one of ITT’s roughly 150 institutions in nearly 40 states. ITT’s tuition costs are among the highest in the country in the for-profit industry. Earning an associate’s degree at ITT can cost more than $44,000. Bachelor’s degree programs can cost $88,000. That is significantly higher than the cost of similar degrees at a community college or a public four-year institution.
Most of ITT’s students borrow large sums to pay the high tuition costs and the majority of this money is borrowed from federal student loan programs. But private student loans also provide critical revenue for ITT. Because most ITT students’ federal aid does not cover the full cost of an ITT program, most students face a “tuition gap” requiring them to find other sources of funding.
The CFPB’s lawsuit alleges that ITT encouraged new students to enroll at ITT by providing them funding for this tuition gap with a zero-interest loan called “Temporary Credit.” This loan typically had to be paid in full at the end of the student’s first academic year. But ITT knew from the outset that many students would not be able to repay their Temporary Credit balances or fund their next year’s tuition gap.
The CFPB lawsuit alleges that between July 2011 and December 2011, ITT pushed its students into repaying their Temporary Credit and funding their second-year tuition gaps through high-cost private student loan programs. Students were left in the dark about the fact that taking out these high-cost loans would be required to continue their studies. However, ITT’s CEO revealed in investor calls that converting the temporary loans to long-term loans was the company’s “plan all along.”
Under the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the CFPB has the authority to take action against institutions engaging in unfair, deceptive, or abusive practices. Specifically, in today’s lawsuit, the Bureau alleges the following conduct by ITT:

• Pressured into predatory loans: ITT used its financial aid staff to rush students through an automated application process without affording them a fair opportunity to understand the loan obligations involved. In some cases, students did not even know they had a private student loan until they started getting collection calls. The loans were high-cost. For borrowers with credit scores under 600, for example, the costs of the private student loans included 10 percent origination fees and interest rates as high as 16.25 percent.

• Credits not transferable: ITT was accredited by a national organization that accredits many for-profit schools, but the credits that students earned typically did not transfer to local community colleges or other nonprofit schools such as public or private colleges. ITT used the prospect of expulsion and the loss of the money already spent during the student’s first year to coerce students into taking out the private loans.

• Misleading future job prospects: The Bureau believes that ITT’s representations led students to think that when they graduated they were likely to land good jobs and enough salary to repay their private student loans. In this way, ITT exploited student expectations while it knew that a majority of students would default.

• Loans likely to fail: ITT knew that most of its students would ultimately default on their private student loans; it projected a default rate for its students of 64 percent. Defaulting on private student loans can have grave consequences for consumers. It can make it difficult to get any kind of loan for years and even affect a borrower’s job prospects. And, because private student loans are difficult to discharge in bankruptcy, the debt can be very difficult to recover from.

The complaint against ITT can be found at:http://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/201402_cfpb_complaint_ITT.pdf
The Bureau’s complaint is not a finding or ruling that the defendant has actually violated the law.
To assist student loan borrowers who may be in delinquency or default, the CFPB recently launched an updated version of the Repay Student Debt interactive tool.
The CFPB also recently finalized a rule allowing it to supervise certain nonbank servicers of federal and private student loans. The rule takes effect on March 1.

Please do your due diligence and be aware that a college degree does not guarantee you a job. You should consider the costs and what the return on inventment will be before enrolling in a program.

Why enroll at a for profit to earn an associates for nearly $50,000 when you will have the same job prospects after obtaining an Associates from a community college for under $10,000.

markulous

diggitle wrote: »

I went to ITT tech (BS in information security) and have a Job as a penetration tester. It's not the school its the person.
I know plenty of people that went to ECPI, ITT Tech, Devry University, Strayer, Capella, etc that are more successful in IT than the folks that opted to go to "brick and morter" schools like UNC, Duke, RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology), MCC (Monroe community college), CPCC, etc.

Again its the person not the school. Do they cost more? Yes a lot more but so do any private schools. Look at Wake forest, and Gardner Webb, two schools that make ITT techs cost look dwarf.

Per Year Cost --->
Wake Forest Tuition = $46,200
Gardner Webb = $26,690
ITT Tech Tuition = $19,967
Appalachian State = $3,291.50
Western Governors = $2,890 per term
CPCC tuition = $1,153

My take:
Get your A+, Net+ and apply to teksystems, technisource, robert half, or the like. Do lots of contract work. Get exposed to rollouts vs doing help desk. You will meet a lot of people this way and get placed in a permanent job faster. Once you get a solid job go to a school like western governors and get a bachelours degree. Get the certs first, its much faster to get a job with those in my opinion. You will get more $$$ for having all the experience too.

ITT Tech is a joke. If you're good at what you do then people are going to look past that and you can still have a successful career, but why go in debt for a crappy school? I went there for two semesters about a decade ago and I regret it (I didn't know any better). I ended up going to Kaplan later but I still wouldn't recommend it because it's for-profit and I racked up a large bill.

If i had to do it all over again I'd do what you recommend at the end of your post. Grab a cert and some experience and start banging out classes at WGU. Going to a cheap community college for an Associate's and transferring to WGU isn't a bad idea either, but the former is more accelerated.

aspiringsoul

The community college in my hometown accepted (some) of my credits from ITT Tech but not all. When I attempted to transfer to Public colleges in the state, no University would take them...so I had to start all over.

Your experience will vary depending on the location that you attend. You may have more difficulty in some states when attempting to transfer credits.

Research the difference between Nationally and regionally accredited degrees:

[h=2]Regional accreditation vs. national accreditation/COLOR][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Regional_accreditation&action=edit&section=3"]edit[/URL][COLOR=#555555[/h]Regionally accredited higher education institutions are predominantly academically oriented, non-profit institutions.^[11][12][13] Nationally accredited schools are predominantly for-profit and offer vocational, career or technical programs.^[11][12]
Every college has the right to set standards and refuse to accept transfer credits.^[14] However, if a student has gone to a school that is only nationally accredited and not regionally accredited, it may be particularly difficult to transfer credits (or even credit for a degree earned) if he or she then applies to a regionally accredited college.^[12] A 2005 study by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) found that, in making decisions on credit transfer, about 84 percent of U.S. higher education institutions considered whether the sending institution is accredited, and many had policies stating that they would accept credits only from regionally accredited institutions.^[15] About 63 percent of institutions told the GAO that they would accept credit from any regionally accredited institution, but only 14 percent similarly accepted credits from nationally accredited schools.^[15] Regional institutions are reluctant to accept credits from nationally accredited institutions due, in part, to national accreditors' less stringent standards for criteria such as faculty qualifications and library resources.^[15] Students who are planning to transfer credits from a nationally accredited school to a regionally accredited school are advised to ensure that the regionally accredited school will accept the credits before they enroll.^[11][12][14]
In general, the names of U.S. post-secondary institutions and their degree titles do not indicate whether the institution is accredited or the type of accreditation it holds. Rules on this topic vary from state to state. Regulations of theTennessee Higher Education Commission require that post-secondary institutions in the state of Tennessee must be regionally accredited to use the word "university" in their names, and that a school lacking regional accreditation may not use the word "college" in its name without adding a qualifier such as "career", "vocational", "business", "technical", "art", "Bible", or "Christian". Tennessee rules also specify that only regionally accredited schools can issue "liberal arts" degrees or degree titles such as Associate of Arts or Science and Bachelor of Arts or Science.^[16]

I know MANY former students who are unable to transfer their credits to regionally accredited schools.

ITT Tech is far less stringent when accepting students (nearly all for profits are) because they want to maximize their profits by securing federal student loans. Because of their lax standards, many institutions will not accept their credits, and many employers look down upon for-profit schools.

I attended ITT with some very intelligent people, but there were many that were accepted that should not have been so that the school could receive the federal loans from the government.

puertorico1985

This thread has plenty of great information, but always take someone's experience with a grain of salt. I have met individuals that have gone to for-profit schools and have nothing but great things to say, while others have had horrible experiences. I believe the take away from this thread is to understand the different between a for-profit and not-for-profit school, understand the difference between regional and national accreditation and make the best decision you can make to determine which school will get your money and time. This process will eliminate some of the struggles that most of us have (myself included) with job prospects and transferring credits between schools.

RomBUS

I went to a "technical school" (DeVry still fits in that right?) and I turned out OK (for now). I knew I was not going to get a recognized Bachelor's about half way in but made the best of it and did the extra work to get a better grasp on things. Personally I met some cool people there I still keep in touch with...I guess I got lucky...

aspiringsoul

RomBUS,

Devry falls into the for-profit category as well, but it's certainly not one of the worse offenders of the for-profits.

One of the best IT pros that I know has a Bachelor degree from Devry. He has pretty much every CCNA level certification, a few CCNP, and he's studying for the CCIE right now.

The degree has little to do with how successful you can be in your career, but it can certainly impede your progress when it comes to transferring credits, and it can certainly take more time to pay off your loans in comparison to a degree from a non-profit school.

I've seen so many people get screwed over by for-profits (it's absolutely appalling to read about these institutions taking advantage of veterans). Many people have obtained certificates or degrees that simply hold no weight in the job market (this is especially true for Law, medical, and criminal justice students) and they are left with nothing but debt, wasted time, and a worthless credential.

It's a bit different in IT. You don't necessarily have to have a "Regionally" accredited degree in order to be competitive in the job market. Employers typically value skill and certifications.

I didn't earn my BS until I was 27, but I could have had it when I was 23 if I had went to the community college instead. It also would have saved me $26,000....which could have paid for my Bachelor degree.....or a car.

Everyone has a different experience...I'm just saying that if you do a google search about for-profit students experiences...You're going to find A LOT more.

If anyone is really interested in learning more about for-profit schools....I strongly encourage you to read the report published by Senator Tom Harkin and the Help committee. A lot of useful info there...

For-Profit Colleges

aspiringsoul

• Between 2008 and 2009, over a million students started attending schools owned by the companies examined by the Committee. By mid-2010, fully half (54 percent) of those students had left school without a degree or certificate. For Associates-degree students, 63 percent left without a degree.
• Most for-profit colleges charge much higher tuition than comparable programs at community colleges and flagship State public universities. The investigation found Associate degree and certificate programs averaged four times the cost of degree programs at comparable community colleges. Bachelor's degree programs averaged 20 percent more than the cost of analogous programs at flagship public universities despite the credits being largely non-transferrable.
• Because 96 percent of students starting a for-profit college take federal student loans to attend a for-profit college (compared to 13 percent at community colleges), nearly all students who leave have student loan debt, even when they don't have a degree or diploma or increased earning power.
• Students who attended a for-profit college accounted for 47 percent of all Federal student loan defaults in 2008 and 2009. More than 1 in 5 students enrolling in a for-profit college-22 percent-default within 3 years of entering repayment on their student loans.
• Despite dismal outcomes and high defaults, for-profit colleges enroll between 10 and 13 percent of students but receive 25 percent of all federal financial aid dollars. In 2009-10, this amounted to 25 percent of the total Department of Education student aid program funds.
• The final report estimates that the 15 publicly traded companies operating "for-profit" colleges received 86 percent of their revenues from federal taxpayer dollars.
• For-profit colleges spend these taxpayer dollars primarily on non-education related expenses: In fiscal year 2009, the companies examined by the committee spent:
  • $4.2 billion or 22.7 percent of all revenue on marketing, advertising, recruiting, and admissions staffing.
  • $3.6 billion or 19.4 percent of all revenue on pre-tax profit.
  • $3.2 billion or 17.2 percent of all revenue on instruction.
  • In 2009 the CEOs of the publicly traded, for-profit education companies took home, on average, $7.3 million. In contrast, the five highest paid leaders of large public universities averaged compensation of $1 million, while the five highest paid leaders at non-profit colleges and universities averaged $3 million.
• The investigation also documented that many companies recruiting tactics misled prospective students with regard to the cost of the program, the graduation rates of other students, the job placement of other students, and the transferability of the credit.

srabiee

Something that should also be stated about predatory for-profit unaccredited schools is that their recruiters use extremely high-pressure sales tactics and will purposely lie to your face without batting an eye. They will contradict everything stated in this thread and promise everything under the sun to get you to sign on the dotted line. Do your own thorough research and don't trust anything these people tell you until you verify it for yourself.

Jon_Cisco

GaryV wrote: »

What jobs can I get with a degree in Information Technology

I understand your desire for easy answers. However when planning your future simple questions like this will not benefit you. There is no easy answer and you would be several years away from graduating so everything will have changed by then.

Spend a bit of time on Dice searching for IT jobs and reading the requirements. You will see the line below a lot.


REQUIREMENTS:
* Bachelor's degree from four-year college or university in Computer Science or a related field


If I had the chance to attend a 4 year college after high school I would take it. Your life will change a lot in 4 years but that degree will travel with you forever. There are a lot of other options for you so if school does not fit in make a realistic plan and get started.

Good Luck!

diggitle

markulous wrote: »

ITT Tech is a joke. If you're good at what you do then people are going to look past that and you can still have a successful career, but why go in debt for a crappy school? I went there for two semesters about a decade ago and I regret it (I didn't know any better). I ended up going to Kaplan later but I still wouldn't recommend it because it's for-profit and I racked up a large bill.

If i had to do it all over again I'd do what you recommend at the end of your post. Grab a cert and some experience and start banging out classes at WGU. Going to a cheap community college for an Associate's and transferring to WGU isn't a bad idea either, but the former is more accelerated.

I went there because I didn't know about WGU at the time. As far as cost goes it was all paid for by my Post 911/GI bill + Academic Competitiveness/National Science and Mathematics Access to Retain Talent and PELL Grant....

rtd

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and just say that I have been to both and my opinion seems to differ from the rest of the USA. I went to University for a BS in Computer Science for 3.5 years. I decided not to finish my bachelors degree because I was going to have to stay a semester or two longer and I was not really learning anything.

I am perfectly ok with teaching myself things but my personal experience was that the BS was a waste of my time and money. At my University most professors could not teach well at all. In an example we had a simple Gen Ed. Macroeconomics where out of 120 students the class average was a 60% and a 50% was a C in this guy's class.

Then I took a web programming course ( PHP MySQL Javascript ) and in the final 3 classes he mentioned that he had forgotten to teach PHP and MySQL but we would still be required to create a website that pulled books from a database; making a mock bookstore website. My point being that what should have been taught in a semester he jammed into a day or two towards then end of the term. I have many many more examples of incompetent professors.

My opinion is that it is important to learn something. Sounds fair yes? I'm currently finishing interviewing for a position in Software QA without even my Associates yet for another year from a technical college. At this school my professors do not have PHD's but rather Bachelors or Associates and they have been more insightful and helpful than I could have imagined. My tech school is not a really well known school however like DeVry or ITT or something like that.

Now, if people reading this thread had an amazing college experience and value their time input and education fantastic! That's all that matters! On the other hand a friend of mine who did finish his BS there is now a Store Manager at Rite Aid and could not find any job.

My point is that you should not discount community colleges and technical schools because of the societal perception of them. In my opinion they have tried much harder to keep me happy and we have an 88% placement rate because the federal government mandates they release that information.

From where I sit now as a youngin' I just wanted to bring this up to you. I learned a lot in college but I taught myself everything. I took programming courses where 18 / 60 students finished and not all of them passed. Many who passed were repeating it. I feel like in my future more will rely on me and my input into my career than a degree. However I understand it may help the career move faster by having that higher degree.

Cheers!

Verities

How successful you are in any school is based on how much you put into it. I received an associates from ITT in Computer Network Systems. I think it was a great step for me and they even helped me get an internship, that helped me launch my career in IT. I've had no problems finding jobs or being looked down upon because my degree is from ITT. I did use my Post 9/11 GI-Bill for it, so I didn't pay a dime. However, it is expensive and I don't think it's worth the cost, it just happened to be convenient for me as I transitioned out of the military.

N2IT

RouteMyPacket wrote: »

Agreed! Then again I don't see the big deal about degrees in the IT field. I can honestly say that my expensive waste of paper called a degree never helped me and is one of the biggest mistakes I ever made.

Or certs for that matter. Pretty much any IT function can be learned on the job.