Windows server knowledge, is it necessary?

--chris--

How vital is windows server know-how if I wanted to work on networking / network analysis focusing on the security aspect of those two areas? Is it possible to deep dive into networking subjects while knowing just enough to get by in Windows servers and have a successful career in networking (working towards a career in security in the long run).

I just passed the CCNA and have been planning on working towards MCSA 2012 but I have no drive to work on the MCSA stuff (I read a chapter, watched some videos...zero motivation). I have been playing with wireshark this weekend and cant get enough of this network analysis stuff (now that I understand what is going on). Watching the handshakes, DoS'ing my wireless network with the microwave then breaking this down in wireshark....its been fun.

I have always liked the advice that suggests you should simply "do what you like" i.e. study the subjects that interest you instead of working on knowledge you have no desire in obtaining. If I am going to follow that advice and keep working on my understanding of how networks function and how they are broken, will I be painting my self into a corner in regards to career growth?

TL;DR

I love learning about networking. Do you have to have moderate Windows server knowledge to have a successful career in IT (networking/security)?

N2IT

This is just my take, not specific to Windows server. I personally think IT has grown so large and vast that it's impossible to know everything. I always suggest people do what they like and that is all. You will always have knowledge gaps it doesn't matter.

Some of the my friends and peers have been at a specific technology for 20+ years. I think the trick is to not deviate from what you like and keep deep diving in it. This is just my opinion though.

For me for instance I deal with databases for the most part. I could learn C# and Windows Server and I have tried this strategy but at the end of the day I end up knowing just a little about a lot. I don't want that, I want to be great at something so I stick to my plan which is tightly scoped and specific to my career plans.

kohr-ah

Here is my take what I've learned so far. Do you need to know it ? No. Does it help? Yes.

Just as I feel all MCSAs should study the CCNA material so they understand networking I recommend at least basic servwr knowledge so you kbow how it and permissions work. Comes in handy in network work as well. May not need to go full mcsa but at least how ad and such works never hurts you.

netsysllc

If you plan on working at an ISP you likely wont need to. If you plan on doing business support you will would probably need to have a basic understanding of Windows Server features and protocols. Some of the things you would likely come across at some point on Windows Server could be DNS, DHCP, SMB, Virtual Switches, RSS, TCP offload, and multi-path IO.

LeBroke

--chris-- wrote: »

I have always liked the advice that suggests you should simply "do what you like" i.e. study the subjects that interest you instead of working on knowledge you have no desire in obtaining. If I am going to follow that advice and keep working on my understanding of how networks function and how they are broken, will I be painting my self into a corner in regards to career growth?

I learned what I liked in university and have nothing to show for it except $60k in student loans.

The choice is yours.

From what I've heard, you can get by without any Windows Server knowledge (if you're in a big enough company, or a place that doesn't use AD), but if that's the case, you need to know Linux inside and out.

The thing is, you will see people doing nothing but networking. What you won't see is the 5-10+ years work experience that got them to that point, at least a few of which were spent doing helpdesk or similar work in a Windows environment.

devils_haircut

My focus has been more on networking, but it is definitely beneficial to at least be familiar with the interfaces used on Windows server for things like DNS and DHCP, because those affect the network team as well. I wouldn't go for an MCSE if you plan on sticking in networking, but at least be familiar with the parts that affect your job.

srj

I think that many people avoid learning outside of their area of expertise. They do not want to be the "jack of all trades." That being said, I've met guys who gained a base level of knowledge in networking, operating systems, and scripting. They still specialize in one particular aspect of IT, but they are not deficient in any areas. I think that this is ideal.

I'm fortunate enough to be working in a Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X environment. While I'm not an expert in any of these (yet), I am starting to move in the direction of Linux. In my current workplace, there are many people with more experience than me. I would say that I might be the one of the team members with the most broad level of knowledge. Keep in mind that this is being in the IT field for just over a year, and at the admin level for roughly six months. If I can learn a decent amount about all of these operating systems in that time, then it shows that it cannot take that much time.

I just don't think it looks good when your coworkers have to explain basic Linux to the Windows guys (ls, cat, grep... basic stuff). Gaining the knowledge level of the RHCSA or MCSA certifications isn't going to waste years of your life. You're looking at a few months a piece studying part time.

We can't have expert level knowledge in every aspect of IT, but I would not want to be completely deficient in any area.

pevangel

I'm in a strictly networking position with a dab of perimeter security, and Windows server knowledge has not played a part in getting to where I am now. Like you, I am not motivated to study any of the Microsoft materials. My Windows server knowledge is limited to what I can remember from a Windows 2003 server class I took some years ago.

I don't know why people are tying DHCP and DNS to Windows servers. My knowledge of DHCP and DNS comes from my networking studies.

There will always be gaps, but I wouldn't invest a lot of time on something that I might do once or twice. Let Google fill in those gaps. The time it takes you to study MCSA materials are better spent studying networking materials.

joehalford01

You'll find that a lot of small companies are going to rely on Windows Servers to supply DNS, DHCP, and network services. I think basic knowledge of AD and other services built into windows server will help you in the long run so you know where it ties into your role. You don't need to certify in it though.

overthetop

I think having the Windows Server knowledge is only necessary depending on the road you are on or driving to in regards to the IT Field. Some roles use more of it than others. Go to a job search engine and look at job descriptions and that will tell you if you'll have or need any necessary experience. I try to gain experience in relation to the job I am currently at or the job I want to be at in the future. No need in wasting any time…especially mines.

N2IT

@ OvertheTop and @pevangel

+ 1

I agree with both of these approaches. I find what happens with myself if I try this, I end up going down a track that takes me off of my original focus. This is very toxic for my advancement.

"I have always liked the advice that suggests you should simply "do what you like" i.e. study the subjects that interest you instead of working on knowledge you have no desire in obtaining."
--Chris--

xnx

Yes at an entry level / in a small company

--chris--

Thanks everyone for the responses, they all have helped.

I currently work at an MSP and have lead a handful of server migrations.....I have some experience but not enough to pass a MCTS. When I sat down this week to start studying for 70-410 it was just aweful. At one point I looked forward to learning this stuff, but after spending months in Cisco-land it is different now. None of the material gets me excited to turn the page.

My next job wont be for a small business, I have done that before and do some now. I know that's not a field I want to go into any further. I just wanted to spend some time thinking about what my next study will be and I am thinking a networking technology will be it. I might read through a MCTS 70-410 study guide and watch some videos and do some labs but I wont be hammering on it like I need to pass a cert.

techfiend

I think if you have general knowlege, which appears you have, I'd move on to linux studies. I can relate to being uninterested to study microsoft certs. The study material is vastly different from A+, N+ exam crams and Lammle's ccent book that I've previously studied. Frankly I think microsoft documentation on a whole is terrible. Usually when I google for a microsoft problem I skip microsoft site results because a majority of the time they are misleading or broken links. Microsoft also changes software rapidly and they are often behind on documentation, sometimes by years.

That said I'll be studying for 2012 and 8.1 MCSA's through wgu and hope their study material is better than what I've demoed. Also my job is probably going to offer a nice pay raise once I get them and become the sys admin.

--chris--

Who is the joker that repped me with the simple comment of: CCNP!

lol, I would study for that...but I don't see CCNP level issues in my line of work. 95% of the network issues I work on are switching related, 4% UTM device and 1% other. Wouldn't CCNP "knowledge" without CCNP experience be a bad idea?

pinkydapimp

--chris-- wrote: »

Who is the joker that repped me with the simple comment of: CCNP!

lol, I would study for that...but I don't see CCNP level issues in my line of work. 95% of the network issues I work on are switching related, 4% UTM device and 1% other. Wouldn't CCNP "knowledge" without CCNP experience be a bad idea?

the goal is to learn that stuff to get you in a role to use it.

IIIMaster

It can help, have your specialization then your other competencies. If your going Cisco stricky be prepare to go for you CCNP and another Cisco area.

anhtran35

Windows? No. You don't need to get an MCSA or MCSE if you just want to know the basics of Windows System Administration. You can read Carpenter's book on Windows Sys Administration which focus on Server 2008R2. It's a simple book that deals with Installation, Administration and Install. 15 chapters and some basic labs. You are done.

CCNP? Yes. You want to be a Network guy. Keep working on the Cisco route. LAN/WAN etc...Additionally, get a Security + CE if you want to get into DOD/DOS/DHS government contracting sector.

hurricane1091

I have the CCNA R&S and next month hopefully the CCNA Sec. Like you, I don't feel like doing the MCSA. I'll probably do it though because I've only been out of school for a year, and if I can have 2 CCNAs, the MCSA, and a VCP + my other certs/degrees/experience by the end of this year, I'll pretty much have a lot of doors open hopefully. Unless someone wants to hire me for a Jr. Network Engineer job before then. Then I'll forget the MCSA and VCP and do the CCNP.

--chris--

Thanks for the ideas, they will help me to focus on what my next step will be.

@anhtran35, no government work around here or else I would. The nearest job like that is ~2 hour drive. And thanks for the reccomendation on the book! This one right?
http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-Server-Administration-Essentials/dp/1118016866/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421168250&sr=8-1&keywords=windows+system+administrator+carpenter

I was thinking about this question my self today...and I realized that simply knowing that a feature or technology exists within server 2008/2012 is what I really need at this point. I don't need to know how to setup/configure it, that's what technet is for. I find the majority of my questions to my colleges are, "I think this is what its doing...can you confirm windows server does that?"

hurricane1091

You should have some sort of idea by now what happens with Windows Server. You know what DHCP, DNS, etc does from CCNA, except Windows Server is usually responsible for the DHCP server and not the Cisco router in smaller environments. Know what a domain is, know what AD is and what group policies and security groups. If you don't have that knowledge at least, you should get it.

--chris--

hurricane1091 wrote: »

You should have some sort of idea by now what happens with Windows Server. You know what DHCP, DNS, etc does from CCNA, except Windows Server is usually responsible for the DHCP server and not the Cisco router in smaller environments. Know what a domain is, know what AD is and what group policies and security groups. If you don't have that knowledge at least, you should get it.

I feel like I am a little past that point, but not quite to MCSA. I have created GPO's to achieve different things, fixed a few DHCP issues and regularly migrate from server 2003 to 2008/2012. I just know I have gaps in my server knowledge because of my limited exposure to them.

hurricane1091

--chris-- wrote: »

I feel like I am a little past that point, but not quite to MCSA. I have created GPO's to achieve different things, fixed a few DHCP issues and regularly migrate from server 2003 to 2008/2012. I just know I have gaps in my server knowledge because of my limited exposure to them.

Then you are just like me.

LeBroke

They way I've noticed it works, is that senior jobs don't give one damn about Microsoft. You're an X type of engineer, and you for the most part do X, maybe a little Y, depending on your own skills, or job requirements.

The big part is getting to that senior job where you're a network engineer, or a Linux administrator, or anything else. And beyond extreme entry-level, most junior jobs are in a Microsoft environment, and often list MCSA, or even MCSE, as a part of their requirements.

How useful it is to being hired, no idea. But I've decided to go with an MCSA for immediate new-job hunting needs, rather than an RHCSA or a CEH that I plan to use more down the road.

anhtran35

It really depends on your goals. If you are a Network guy and want to hit that ladder, go to the Cisco certification route. If you prefer to be a System Administrator then you stick to a specific vendor( Linux/Unix or Windows ) of interest.

Now in the future, if you are just bored and peak at your specialty then I suggest you study up and test on some other certs just for self knowledge and padding the resume.

Chris, I'm going to PM you a link.

Jon_Cisco

I read all of the posts and agree with most of what's been said already. To satisfy the basic knowledge of windows server and active directory I am going to take the Microsoft 98-365 exam at some point. I have read most of the book you linked to and it's pretty easy to read and follow.

I think if you are working and happy where you are you should study what you like. Use that to advance your knowledge and keep your interest. Study things that don't interest you only to fill specific needs.

apr911

It is what you make of it. Is Windows knowledge a requirement in the network world? No but neither is Linux knowledge for that matter.

I have met plenty of Network Admins who barely could support the machine they were running on (if at all) let alone the servers in the company yet were high level network admins but their lack of skill in OS/Application knowledge limited their ability to resolve issues in a timely manner.

There are a number of OS side tools that are invaluable to a knowledgeable network admin and are not available on many Cisco/network devices. Now Cisco has started to improve things with their NX-OS for Nexus but old school routers/switches running traditional IOS's dont have some tools like tcpdump (though captures may be available) or ARPPING.

Personally, I think there are some skills that any network admin should have. In my opinion, the network admin should have sufficient skills and knowledge of the OS stack (Windows and Linux) to at least diagnosis transport layer issues and below. The number of times I've seen tickets kicked around because a user cant connect to FTP or HTTP or whatever service just to find out the FTP/HTTP/whatever service wasnt running on the right port (service was on but not on the "standard" port) because no one took the time to run a netstat command...

I also believe a network admin should have the ability to add a static IP address to a Win/Nix server.
I also believe a network admin should have a basic understanding of Applications (enough to know a server error message means its likely not the network).


Of course I also believe the opposite of Server Admins. I think they should know enough about the network to be able to give the network guy pertinent details.

Again, the number of times I've seen tickets kicked back and forth between network & server admins because of a lack of basic understanding what falls under the network and what falls under the server is outstanding.

In my last company, I started as a Windows Server Admin and made the switch to Network Admin. While working as network admin, I took my RHCSA and RHCE because I felt my lack of Linux knowledge was keeping me from resolving a large number of tickets that came my way (we were a mixed shop with 60-win/40-nix). No one else in my department seemed similarly inclined and I worked with some truly bright network engineers (and some not so bright but I digress) who like I said earlier could barely keep their machine running. As a result, I very quickly got the more "difficult" tickets which had been kicked around from department to department because I could understand both the OS and Network Stack.

These tickets often turned out to be easy solutions where the Server and Network teams just couldn't get on the same page but some of them did require deeper digging. In all though, they increased my exposure and gave me the experience needed to quickly move through the ranks.

Network admins more than anyone else can benefit from OS and scripting knowledge. What we do tends to be very structured, from the troubleshooting down to the configurations which lends itself to automation/scripting and more importantly, the network tends to be the catchall for the "I-dont-know-whats-wrong-but-something-clearly-isnt-working-right-so-it-must-be-the-network" groups. Being able to short-circuit the troubleshooting process and quickly & logically point out why it isnt the network or why it is the server will save you time.

philz1982

I just spent 3-16 hour days troubleshooting software. I will tell you that if I didn't have "server" knowledge I would have been screwed. The best thing I ever did was read all 1600 pages of Mastering Server 2012 R2.

philz1982

Now as to how that relates to security. Machines and people are often the exploited platforms not networks (usually). A poorly implemented web application can totally fubar your security. Knowing how to validate IIS and LAMP is critical.

--chris--

apr911 wrote: »

It is what you make of it. Is Windows knowledge a requirement in the network world? No but neither is Linux knowledge for that matter.

I have met plenty of Network Admins who barely could support the machine they were running on (if at all) let alone the servers in the company yet were high level network admins but their lack of skill in OS/Application knowledge limited their ability to resolve issues in a timely manner.

There are a number of OS side tools that are invaluable to a knowledgeable network admin and are not available on many Cisco/network devices. Now Cisco has started to improve things with their NX-OS for Nexus but old school routers/switches running traditional IOS's dont have some tools like tcpdump (though captures may be available) or ARPPING.

Personally, I think there are some skills that any network admin should have. In my opinion, the network admin should have sufficient skills and knowledge of the OS stack (Windows and Linux) to at least diagnosis transport layer issues and below. The number of times I've seen tickets kicked around because a user cant connect to FTP or HTTP or whatever service just to find out the FTP/HTTP/whatever service wasnt running on the right port (service was on but not on the "standard" port) because no one took the time to run a netstat command...

I also believe a network admin should have the ability to add a static IP address to a Win/Nix server.
I also believe a network admin should have a basic understanding of Applications (enough to know a server error message means its likely not the network).


Of course I also believe the opposite of Server Admins. I think they should know enough about the network to be able to give the network guy pertinent details.

Again, the number of times I've seen tickets kicked back and forth between network & server admins because of a lack of basic understanding what falls under the network and what falls under the server is outstanding.

In my last company, I started as a Windows Server Admin and made the switch to Network Admin. While working as network admin, I took my RHCSA and RHCE because I felt my lack of Linux knowledge was keeping me from resolving a large number of tickets that came my way (we were a mixed shop with 60-win/40-nix). No one else in my department seemed similarly inclined and I worked with some truly bright network engineers (and some not so bright but I digress) who like I said earlier could barely keep their machine running. As a result, I very quickly got the more "difficult" tickets which had been kicked around from department to department because I could understand both the OS and Network Stack.

These tickets often turned out to be easy solutions where the Server and Network teams just couldn't get on the same page but some of them did require deeper digging. In all though, they increased my exposure and gave me the experience needed to quickly move through the ranks.

Network admins more than anyone else can benefit from OS and scripting knowledge. What we do tends to be very structured, from the troubleshooting down to the configurations which lends itself to automation/scripting and more importantly, the network tends to be the catchall for the "I-dont-know-whats-wrong-but-something-clearly-isnt-working-right-so-it-must-be-the-network" groups. Being able to short-circuit the troubleshooting process and quickly & logically point out why it isnt the network or why it is the server will save you time.

great example and post. Thanks...I've been reading a 2008r2 I had laying around here at night and I'm actually warming up to the subjects. I've filled in a few gaps already, usually things that I do but had wondered "why do I have to do it this way".

i am putting together a lab here, focusing on recreating client sites and then applying different attack methods to see what works and why. I figure the process of building the infrastructures correctly will teach me the windows stuff and the attack portion will keep me motivated to learn.

anhtran35

Free training videos:

Windows Server 2008R2: https://www.youtube.com/user/itfreetraining/playlists

Windows Server 2012: https://www.youtube.com/user/elithecomputerguy/playlists