Finding a job without a bachelors

cloudyknight

I'm strongly considering going for my bachelors in business information technology from a state university online program or WGU. Studying part time while continuing to work full time.

I'm over 2 years into my career, working as a DBA. I currently have an A.A.S., A+, Net+ and Sec+. I just had the A.A.S. when I was hired for support. I moved to the data side of things sometime after I got the certifications. I can't say whether or not any of it made a difference.

Anyway I'm thinking I'm at a good point to get the degree now that I've established a career path. I manage data for the company but I'm also becoming more involved with the business side of things. I feel like a degree will fill in more knowledge gaps I may have and help me for life. I can get more specialized certifications later.

Is my thinking correct? Is it time to go for the bachelors? If not what should I be doing instead? If so what do you say about WGU vs state school online programs?

dave330i

N2IT wrote: »

In business roles, degrees count for a lot more, IT not so much experience is king. Of course certifications can help depending on what you want to do.

Knowledge is king. Experience is a pale imitator.

networker050184

Sure knowledge is king, but it's hard to ascertain knowledge from reading a resume. So unfortunately you still need the experience to go along with it for the most part. At least some sort of quantifiable experience to get yourself called anyway.

networker050184

cloudyknight wrote: »

Is my thinking correct? Is it time to go for the bachelors? If not what should I be doing instead? If so what do you say about WGU vs state school online programs?

If you have the time and means to go for the degree definitely do it. The more you have going for you the better.

aspiringsoul

You'll never make it past HR in some organizations. You would be more competitive in the marketplace with a Bachelor degree. There are people in the marketplace that meet your qualifications who also have degrees. Whether those jobs should actually require a bachelor degree is certainly up for debate.

The Bachelor degree is the new high school diploma.

hurricane1091

I recently decided to get a Bachelor's (Have two different Associate's degrees). The CTO told me I could become a Network Engineer without it (Finding it hard to land an interview currently - he doesn't know that though) but if I ever wanted some sort of leadership role, then I would need the Bachelor's without a doubt. Will I learn much? Nah, probably not. Sucks having a year experience and two 2 year degrees and some good certifications and making such a low wage. Definitely convinced it's because of a lack of a Bachelor's.

aspiringsoul

There is a good article that you can read here at Forbes

In summary:

The sad thing is that a high school diploma is simply the price of admission to the real world, but it doesn’t do anything for your career. College opens more doors, but even then, it just gets you what a high school diploma did 20 years ago. The key is that you have to differentiate yourself from other college graduates, and “more education” or fancier degrees don’t do it. What employers want to see is experience, skill, and value. Companies will trade experience for degrees 9 times out of 10. So as you start your journey to college, ask yourself: what skills am I developing, not what degree am I getting.

So basically, if you are competing for a position that "requires" a Bachelor degree, that employer might use your lack of a Bachelor degree as something to hold over your head during negotiation, especially if they get the impression that you're desparate for the position.

If the HR manager (or the company) has a strict Bachelor degree required policy for their Salary positions, then your resume might be thrown out even if you are the most qualified for the position.

Do I feel that my position should require a Bachelor degree? No, I think that it should only require experience and relevant certifications. Does it require a Bachelor degree? Yes. That is the new trend my friends. At least certain schools offer programs that are affordable and convenient for working professionals with families and obligations.

Stay away from For-Profit schools...

broli720

All I have to say is if you want a seat at the table, then you have to be willing to dance. Yeah it is risky because of cost, but you'll learn critical intangibles (dealing with people, critical thinking, exposure to different cultures) that will follow you for the rest of your life. Go to college because it is pretty much mandatory if you want to make it in this new economy.

Cyberscum

Murph2390 wrote: »

To give you an idea of this in the last 2 weeks I've passed CompTIA A+, Net+, Security+ and CCENT routing and switching.

Professional cert tester?

Ok, on a serious note....You seem smart, start a business and you wont have an employment problem.

Talonize

One of my professors has no bachelor's degree but has well over 100 certs. He is also a Microsoft MVP. He had no problem finding a job as a network engineer/systems engineer.

However, my other professor who does have a bachelor's degree cannot find a job. But I think that's because he likes to joke around and start educating the people that are interviewing him on tech issues. He told us how he ended up lecturing an interviewer on how to subnet because the test subnetting problems that they gave him made no sense. They never called him back after that.

So they way I understand it, like with anything else in IT... it depends. I think if you mention that you are at least taking your bachelor's degree, that would help tremendously.

I don't want a bachelor's degree myself, but I feel that it won't hurt. Better to have it and flaunt it around than need it, not have it, and lose a potential job offer. I'd prefer to just finish my associate's degree, get a good job, and just take non-credit classes for the next big tech cert until I grow old. But things just might not work that way.

IIIMaster

I wonder how one of your professors can not have a bachelors degree and is able to teach ? From my understanding you will need at the least a bachelors degree to teach at the 2 year level.

But yeah you can sit on associates degree and still end up in great shape. I only have an associates and have dramatically my income within 2 years by gaining certs, experience and education. Once I have my bachelors I will add more to my resume and upgrade my skill sets. The only people who really state education is not necessary are the individuals who got into IT when it was easy, probably in the 90's. Now they have 10 years of experience and honestly is set. But from my experience those are the one who most likely do not know how to fully use the technology as they only know what have been told or shown to them. Those are the guys who lean hard on support to resolve their issue.

aspiringsoul

You might not hit that wall in your career now, or within the next five years...but there will come a point that you're unable to advance in an organization or compete with other candidates for a desired position, because you don't possess a Bachelor degree. Human Resources use the Bachelor degree as a requirement to filter through the candidates for the position.

Personally, I think it's a good idea to encourage everyone to further their education, but it definitely has its downsides. We're seeing the effects of credential inflation in the job market, and this will only get WORSE over time. I don't believe that College is for everyone, but employers are clearly taking advantage of the abundance of college educated individuals in the labor market.

Read below:

• Employers now require bachelor’s degrees for a wide range of jobs, but the shift has been dramatic for some of the occupations historically dominated by workers without a college degree. The credential gap can amount to 25 percentage points or more for middle skill jobs in some occupational families, like Office and Administrative and Business and Financial Operations. For example, 65% of postings for Executive Secretaries and Executive Assistants now call for a bachelor’s degree. Only 19% of those currently employed in these roles have a B.A.
• In some roles, employers prefer bachelor’s credentials even when that makes the position harder to fill. For example, Construction Supervisor positions that require a B.A. take 61 days to fill on average, compared to 28 days for postings that don’t require a bachelor’s degree.
• In other occupations, such as entry level IT help desk positions, the skill sets indicated in job postings don’t include skills typically taught at the bachelor’s level, and there is little difference in skill requirements for jobs requiring a college degree from those that do not. Yet the preference for a bachelor’s degree has increased. This suggests that employers may be relying on a B.A. as a broad recruitment filter that may or may not correspond to specific capabilities needed to do the job.
• Jobs resist credential inflation when there are good alternatives for identifying skill proficiency. Many health care and engineering technician jobs, such as Respiratory Therapists, show little sign of upcredentialing. That is likely because those positions are governed by strict licensing or certification standards, well-developed training programs, or by measurable skill standards such that employers do not need to look at a college degree as a proxy for capability.

​[h=2]Implications[/h]

• One implication of this trend is that many middle-skill career pathways are becoming closed off to those without a bachelor’s degree – a group that still comprises nearly two-thirds of the U.S. workforce. Frequently these positions, such as IT help desk technicians, serve as the first step on the career ladder to better jobs, so job seekers without a bachelor’s degree may lose out on future advancement as well as current positions.
• This trend could exacerbate the problems employers face as they seek to replace workers amidst an aging workforce. Some of the occupations with the greatest credentials gap have older-than-average workforces, and will have significant turnover as workers retire. Raising credential requirements will make those employees even harder to replace.
• In many of those occupations with a growing credentials gap, it is worth examining exactly why employers prefer employees with a college education. In some cases, the skills needed in that occupation have objectively increased, as reflected in upgraded skill requirements as workers use advanced technology or apply more sophisticated analysis and judgment in their jobs. However, in many other cases — particularly those where the substance of the work does not appear to be changing or to be different based on whether or not a B.A. is required — employers may be using the bachelor’s degree as a rough, rule-of-thumb screening system to recruit better workers. In the latter case, greater alignment between K-12 schools, job training programs, and employers might accomplish the same goal with greater precision.
• Jobs in fields with strong certification or licensure standards, or with discreet, measurable skill requirements seem to resist this trend. This suggests that developing certifications that better reflect industry needs, together with industry acceptance of these alternative credentials, could reduce pressure on job seekers to pursue a bachelor’s degree and ensure that middle-skill Americans continue to have opportunities for rewarding careers, while continuing to provide employers with access to the talent they need.

Source

MeanDrunkR2D2

As a fellow Iowan, I can understand the frustration that will come when trying to find IT jobs in that state. I finished my BS in 2006 and had a heck of a time finding anything at all in the DSM area. Of course that was when IT jobs were cooling off a bit and I wasn't having much luck in finding a good IT job anywhere. I expanded my search down to KC and ended up relocating there as I had several offers to pick from. Of course, being new to IT I made a poor choice for my first post degree IT job, but quickly found better opportunities. Eventually I moved to Ft Worth, TX and now I'm in Wichita. The last place probably wouldn't have been on my radar except for my wife getting a job here. At this point in my career I knew that as long as there are IT jobs nearby, I will always get a job.

Back to Iowa though, IT jobs have improved in the DSM area and there will be much competition that you will encounter from new grads with degrees. Now, to help yourself out, you need to leverage yourself above others that will have the degree that many HR departments will use to grade candidates. It's not always fair, but sometimes it's the requirements certain positions may hold in certain areas. It's not impossible to get a great paying job without a degree, but keep in mind that you'll need to lean heavily on your experience and certifications for them to overlook that aspect. It may not be a bad idea to slowly work on getting a degree (AS/AA) at a local community college when you aren't working. There are a few big employers as you know there in DSM if that is an area you are looking at moving to or are close enough to commute. I believe Google still has a place in Council Bluffs, but well, that's also Council Bluffs and I wouldn't want to live there. lol. Iowa City/Cedar Rapids will also have many opportunities as well, but not as many as you will find in DSM. As far as certs go, you really need to step back and envision where you want to be in IT long term. Server? Absolutely get your MCSA/MCSE to leverage yourself against others. To start out though, you will likely find yourself doing Desktop/Helpdesk type of work to get started off. If you see yourself more working with Networking/Telecom, then you'll probably want to focus heavier on Cisco certs that will get you ahead of others and look for network admin/NOC type of positions.

But if you are young enough, I would seriously consider college and getting a BS as it will check off another box for HR departments and would only be a help for your long term growth and career. You don't need to jump all in and not try working and just get your education. I would highly recommend finding a Helpdesk job in the DSM area, and start courses at DMACC and pick up your AS in an IT related degree and then switch to a 4 year school in the area to get your BS in IT (Whichever intrigues you most). That will keep your costs lower and get you the education that you need as well as experience at the same time. The bonus you will have over others that may be in college classes with you is that you are earning experience while getting your education, where they are just going to school and not working in that field. That would put you well above others come graduation time. A degree doesn't mean you know more or are better than someone without a degree, but it does prove that you are capable and able to learn and stick with a degree to finish it and if you get good enough grades that you can excel while also working at the same time.

aspiringsoul

MeanDrunkR2D2 (wow that's an epic name),

+1

Employers tend to prefer candidates with Bachelor degrees because it shows dedication. I agree that it is much more cost effective to attend a Community College, earn an Associates, and then attend a four year non-profit University.

Stay far, far away from For-profit schools.

hurricane1091

I'll update this with my 2 cents again.

So I have two Associate's (one in IT) and CCNA, MTA, A+, Network+... worked an XP to 7 upgrade for $17/hr which was easy for 5 months (really this was overpaid, no one should of been paid this much), then unemployed for the summer, and started as "Help Desk Intern" in September for $14/hr (About $29k/yr assuming I miss no time but really less due to holidays, so about $28k/yr in reality). Low, but I took it since the experience is good and it's not help desk - it's desktop support with jr. systems admin roles and some business work involved too.

Was just offered a permanent position for $37,500/yr and new job title of Jr. Systems Analyst, plus end of the year bonus and raise. Happy for both things. Still a little low but I've only been out of school for a year and it's more than I thought I'd get out of it (especially job title change). Like the job since it's close to home, free lunch every day, feel like I am well-liked, etc. So anyway, I could probably stay here and get VCP and MCSA over the next year and jump to $50k+ some time in 2016, then continue to study and advance more. But I'm going to finish my Bachelor's. Really want to be a network engineer and not systems engineer, and want to lead the troops one day.

TL;DR I'm a year out of school with two 2 year degrees, have a decent job with decent pay and good experience, believe I could double my pay in the next 4 years without a Bachelor's, but going to pursue one anyway for good measure.

IIIMaster

That is great news to hear man congrats. I recall when I was first looking at IT jobs and I spoke to many successful IT heads. They advise me of the 3 requirements needed to have a successful future in IT...a degree, experience and certifications. A lot of newbies attempt to compensate for their lack of another and over do it. No one want to take an entry level job paying peanuts but it is call paying dues. Although a few was lucky enough to jump straight into jr. or engineer roles right after college the majority of us will have to pay the dues.

Chevel

This was an interesting read a few co-workers and myself were discussing this topic recently. I was informed that I would struggle in the IT world with just an Associates. I'm still paying on my student loans and don't to rack up any more debt if I can it.

hurricane1091

So I can update this I guess.

Before I was offered a permanent position last week, I had recently applied for some positions. One "required" a Bachelor's for Jr. Systems Admin that called me today for an interview. Of course I just have 2 Associate's though. Still think it's harder without the 4 year degree but not impossible. Also was called yesterday for a position I applied to but they would not tell me the pay range so I didn't bother. I got a reasonable bump and title change and just enrolled into WGU, so not really looking to leave my job at the moment now unless it's a Jr. Network Engineer position or the like (the SysAdmin job is an hour away, I just cannot drive that far now that I'm going back to school).

vtrader

There is always the old fashioned way of getting a job, networking(as in social not cisco). The who you know improves your chances more then anything else. I once got a job that required a degree when I don't have one because I knew someone who knew the supervisor. This was a large worldwide company.
Out of the entire company I think everyone had a degree and some were post grad, apart from me and the cleaner. During my interview with the manager my education was never asked about. The goal is to get past the hr firewall. But is is important that you can sell yourself that you can do the job.
But networking takes as much time as well, usually start with the people you know, putting word out there that your looking.
Thats why I am currently having problems looking for entry level jobs in IT, have no background in it.

katiesss

what about the good old follow your heart stredegy?

dont follow the system follow the heart,
no offense to degree holders but most people get that paper because its not their passionn but because HR wants to but they and everyone know deep inside its not relavanet to do your job.
experience and your history is.

foollow your hearts people
screw the system.
it is so sad to see so many people who are already in IT and has progressed through going to online univeristies not to learn but just to get that paper,
its just sad,

vtrader

True, if you follow your heart you better become a really good SME and become a creator not just a doer in that field.

katiesss wrote: »

what about the good old follow your heart stredegy?

dont follow the system follow the heart,
no offense to degree holders but most people get that paper because its not their passionn but because HR wants to but they and everyone know deep inside its not relavanet to do your job.
experience and your history is.

foollow your hearts people
screw the system.
it is so sad to see so many people who are already in IT and has progressed through going to online univeristies not to learn but just to get that paper,
its just sad,

MeanDrunkR2D2

My heart led to me go to college and achieve my BS in CIS. I wasn't working in IT prior to getting my degree because many contractors/employers in my area required at least an AS and preferred the BS. I know for a fact that most of the jobs I got afterwards were partly due to my education, the rest fell to my experience and personality. Sure, just getting a BS just to have that paper doesn't mean as much as someone who actually put their time, effort and heart into getting that degree.

At some point down the road, not having a degree will be a hindrance and limit your growth abilities, unless you stick with the same employer for a very long time would someone hire a person without a higher level education. That comes across in many ways, not related to IT, such as communication. I can easily see that is something that could truly benefit many who are in IT, but didn't want to get the education because they hate math, or English, or whatever non-IT related requirement. Who would want someone as a C level if their writing and email, communication abilities look to be on par with the average 8th grader? The system didn't screw me. It taught me to be well rounded Katiesss and not just learn the techniques to improve myself in many more ways than just job experience will give. I have a built in network of fellow graduates and my University that I can reach out to and network with to assist when it comes time to look for another position.

You may have been able to get your job and move upwards, but that wall will be there at some point and you'll find it harder to get that position that many of us dream about. There will be employers that will never interview you because you haven't shown the ability to stick to college and get that degree. If you were to look at 2 candidates that are similar when it comes to experience, but one has that degree, they will stand out and likely get the offer all things else being equal.

I and many others didn't go to college and get our degrees just for the paper. We went there to learn and improve ourselves in many ways. I followed my passion and it took me down this path. Yea, I have a boat load of student loans that I'll be paying on for a few more years, but the payback long term will be better than if I just skipped college.

Having issues with typing and spelling and grammar can show a lack of intellect, no matter how much of an expert you may be at your job. If you aren't able to properly communicate by email to others and they fully understand what you are saying makes everyones job much easier. I have encountered many in IT that are horrid spellers and horrid with grammar. It comes off in a bad light in my personal opinion. You don't go to college to just get a piece of paper, but to better yourself.

vtrader

I think the bottom line is for those of us with degrees we need to be more creative and use other means to aquire work. I wonder what people used to do before recruitment agencies and HR?