Explain to me the disrespect I see many tech people show to college degrees

Claymoore

Itrimble wrote: »

A growing number of companies, managers, and HR representatives are repeatedly saying that the next generation of the workforce doesn't have the essential skills needed to perform at their jobs. Read this article.

The skills gap is a myth. Either the candidates with those skills won't work for that salary, or HR is looking for a purple squirrel that doesn't exist. Like posting a req that requires 10 years experience as a Java coder and a CCIE, masters degree required with PhD preferred - salary starting at 75k.

Numerous economists have noted that when employers raise wages, skilled employees suddenly become easier to find – and Cappelli notes that much of the discussion about a skills gap appears to be driven by employers looking to hire workers on the cheap.

Why Employers Are to Blame for the

The reason I value certs over degrees for most of IT is that certifications are current. I studied biochemistry in college, which is about as useful for me today as if i had studied cutting edge IT like NT 3.51 or Novell 3.5 in college 20 years ago. I was required to take 1 of 3 computer classes as a biologist - fortran, pascal, or survey of computing. I opted for survey of computing and took the easy A without having to show up for class. But I'll have those WordPerfect 5 DOS skills for life.

College shows you were willing to put in the work a few (or many) years ago. Certifications show me that you are still willing to put in the work to stay current. I need to know that you are staying current and using today's methods, rather than still trying to do things the same way you learned them 15 years ago.

Degrees have more value once you get out of the day to day operations grind, where the knowledge that doesn't expire is more important. Like good communication skills - writing, speaking - that are critical when interfacing with departments outside of IT. An MBA can give you the common business framework and language to work with other executives. (Although an MBA by itself isn't worth as much as you might think. My wife has an MBA and she has only briefly earned half as much as I do.)

I have considered going back to school to get a BS it IT and then move on to a masters program. I think both would help me when I finally want to transition out of consulting and move on to an IT management role. But right now I have a whole list of AWS skills I want to learn.

beaucaldwell

From my experience, you're more likely to get a job in IT having hands on experience and no college degree than a degree with no experience. I work for the gov't and have no degree, and my certs aren't even worth mentioning (don't even have an A+). A degree in IT seems to really only come into play when you're looking at intermediate/advanced IT positions or management. A lot of places do require a degree but if you havn't step foot on a job or haven't been working in IT for several years that degree isn't going to do much for you; hand's on experience always prevails. Always seems best to get your foot in the door somewhere even if it's a helpdesk, and work on some certs (which are more current and more relivant) and then slowly do school if you so choose. From speaking to many recruiters over the years its this order 1) job experience 2) certs 3) degree. Odds are if you're going for a position that requires a degree you already have several years on the job and several certs.

edit: food for thought, I make about 55k/yr and have no degree and only an HP APS cert and a Mac Integration cert...

networker050184

Claymoore wrote: »

The skills gap is a myth. Either the candidates with those skills won't work for that salary, or HR is looking for a purple squirrel that doesn't exist. Like posting a req that requires 10 years experience as a Java coder and a CCIE, masters degree required with PhD preferred - salary starting at 75k.

I think the whole deal with "skills gap" is that people seem to confuse someone having the qualifications on paper as being skilled. I can't tell you how many CCIEs (or high level certs in general) with Bachelors I have interviewed that lack the skills to do a high level technical job. So sure, plenty people have the on paper qualifications to do these jobs. Do they have the actual skill to get the job done though? The latter are extremely hard to find in my experience which I think is the big reason people in this industry care first and foremost about experience.

DigitalZeroOne

jaycrewz wrote: »

Hey, I was thinking about this for years actually....but definitely a lot more so recently, now that Ive decided to make a career for myself in IT. Why is it that many tech folks call a college degree unnecessary, useless, waste of time, etc etc...

Speaking generally, the main issue that I see are people who go to school, and immediately expect to earn a very large salary. No offense to anyone, but for-profit colleges also seem to contribute to the problem a lot. People will go to these schools, pay an exorbitant of money (well, usually borrow the money and then pay it back), and fall for the promise of 50k+ a year job as soon as they graduate.

I'm all for a degree depending on the individual, but I've read and seen far too many people who believe that they are entitled to a high paying job, just because they graduated from college. I'm picking on for-profit schools because of their advertising and the scrutiny that the government has had on them in recent years, but other colleges are guilty as well.

I was in IT long before I obtained my degree, and speaking for myself of course, my degree didn't teach me anything that relates to my job, that I didn't already know. I didn't actually expect to learn anything new, I just needed a degree because companies want it, especially if/when an individual starts looking into Management positions.

I can go on and on about this, but in summary:

Many people feel entitled to a job because they have a degree
College in general is too expensive
College isn't needed for a lot of positions (education is)

colemic

I agree w/ Clay - there are LOADS of people who want in the InfoSec industry, for example. And we continue to search for people that already have experience, to do analyst-level work or lower - we shouldn't focus on experience, we should focus on competencies, and to me, that word includes education. How many junior positions are on Dice, that want a CCNP, MCSE, and CISSP?

notes from a slide in a InfoSec leadership preso I am working on, concerning hiring in InfoSec:



Hiring the Right People
1998 Draft: Top rated QBs in CFB. Roughly equal in stats – Senior year of college, Manning threw 36 TDs, and 11 picks. Leaf threw 34 TDs and 11 picks. Experience wise, they were the pretty much the same.

Before the draft, Leaf blew off his interview w/ Colts. Fined 10k before season for missing Draftee meeting w/ Chargers before the season even started. Chargers paid him 31.25 million, including a guaranteed $11.25 million signing bonus, and got almost no return on their investment.

Our industry is in trouble because we can’t seem to match the right people to the right task, from the bottom all the way to the top. I am sure most of you have a hard time finding ‘qualified’ people… but are you looking for the right things? Technical skills will only get you so far…

Focus on the Top 4: Integrity, Culture Fit, Attitude, and Aptitude – in that order.

*According to the Bureau of National Affairs, U.S. businesses lose a total of $11 billion annually (and growing) as a result of employee turnover, and 80% of turnover is caused by bad hires. That’s 9 zeros. That’s a lot.

According to a study conducted by Link Humans and reported by UndercoverRecruiter, a second-level manager (employed at an organization of any size) who earns $62,000 per year and has been terminated after 2.5 years, the bottom line costs to a company over these 30 months are $840,000; this includes:

Total compensation
Hiring costs
Cost of maintaining employee
Disruption costs
Severance
Mistakes, failures and missed business opportunities

However you choose to, you have to gauge your prospect’s integrity and competency. No one wants to hire someone only to find out they can’t be trusted or are incompetent, especially in InfoSec. Often overlooked.

Lots of InfoSec folk with amazing skillsets and awful/non-existent soft skills. Personality/team fit/culture goes a long way, and is arguably more important than technical skills, which can be taught. It is a balancing act, because no one wants to take the time to train someone… but focus on competencies, not just skills.

Competencies are skill + knowledge + behavior. Chargers focused on skill, not competencies. (Education falls here)

Focus on finding people with the right attitude, and the ability to gain the right aptitude.

Soft is hard – soft skills are hard to get right, hard to develop. Tech skills can be taught!

Already have your team? Align/distribute them to the right task, based on ability and desire

Find the balance that works for your team and organization

Grass is always greener on the other side? No, when it is watered and fertilized

Identify employee opportunities and plan their path to success.

NOC-Ninja

I see it as a checklist but not necessary to do your job and break 100k.
I have co workers that can deploy and school guys that have certs and degrees.

nster

One thing I'd like to mention again. Location

Most (not all) jobs I look at that are moderately interesting for me (starting around 55K CAD) require a Bachelors or your CV is thrown out. Some do have an exception for people who have 6+ years minimum experience in that exact role. Many Sys/Server Admin job ask for a Bachelor's in a relevant field (which means anything IT related), MCSA/MCSE is only a bonus but not needed though... In bigger companies (ie: our public transport (STM) or hydroelectric (Hydro-Quebec)), even for basic IT support you need a bachelor's. However, with a bachelor's (even better if you have Ing. title) within 10 years, you are guaranteed 6 figures, even if you are doing an A+ level job. In other companies, you are stuck at HelpDesk if you don't have a Bachelor's... It is an odd job market

jaycrewz

beaucaldwell wrote: »

From my experience, you're more likely to get a job in IT having hands on experience and no college degree than a degree with no experience. I work for the gov't and have no degree, and my certs aren't even worth mentioning (don't even have an A+). A degree in IT seems to really only come into play when you're looking at intermediate/advanced IT positions or management. A lot of places do require a degree but if you havn't step foot on a job or haven't been working in IT for several years that degree isn't going to do much for you; hand's on experience always prevails. Always seems best to get your foot in the door somewhere even if it's a helpdesk, and work on some certs (which are more current and more relivant) and then slowly do school if you so choose. From speaking to many recruiters over the years its this order 1) job experience 2) certs 3) degree. Odds are if you're going for a position that requires a degree you already have several years on the job and several certs.

edit: food for thought, I make about 55k/yr and have no degree and only an HP APS cert and a Mac Integration cert...

And here's the rub...why do many people, such as yourself, always make this an either/or situation. One can have a degree, certs, AND experience. Ive seen more than enough posts online of an IT professional saying a degree got them a bump in position and pay when coupled with their certs and experience.

Thats the thing I cannot understand...that when some people downplay a degree...they always dream up a degree holder with zero certs and zero experience.

Jon_Cisco

My personal feeling is that the debate between needing a degree or not is much like religion or politics.
There is no right or wrong people are just going about life in different ways.

For myself I like to think about the bigger picture. Statistically a degree will provide better opportunities over a lifetime. This is not necessarily true to any given situation but when taken as a whole education at least in the U.S. has provided additional opportunities.

I would say that while I know some people that complain about the cost of their degree I don't know any that wish they did not have one.

kly630

I think it's one thing to claim college is a waste of money, but it's entirely different to claim it's a waste of time. There are things still worth studying in college. Business and engineering have loads of immediate, practical knowledge you can apply to your life and work, and very few people wouldn't benefit from studying more things like that.

College being a waste of money is an entirely different claim and needs some real proof. I like to evaluate these claims like businesses do, using methods from finance like the net present value method. It's the best way to make capital budgeting decisions. I personally used this method to avoid going to law school a few years back and it's turned out to be a shrewd move. Of course, I learned of this method from the business school at my college, so I'm not sure what to make of that. It's a catch 22 I suppose.

dou2ble

Normally a BS degree alone won't get you over 6 figures in an IT position, but an advanced cert like CISSP, MCSE or CCIE (maybe even CCNA?) and without a BS will get you there.

Now once that techie with only an advanced cert gets to 6 figures he/she probably won't get to upper management without a degree. Some make it but most don't. My previous VP only had a HS diploma and worked his way up, but the companies new requirement was minimum BS degree for management.

My certs have helped me more then my BS monetarily, but eventually with my BS and MS I'll be managing the other techie's without the degrees and we all already know that. I view them as technically proficient and experts in their field, but not necessarily managers. They don't want to be managers and want to be viewed as experts in their field. It all works out.

So it all depends on your career goals. If someone is looking down on the other that's just low self-esteem because it isn't the degree or cert that proves their worth, it's only another very important tool in the shed.

bermovick

jaycrewz wrote: »

And here's the rub...why do many people, such as yourself, always make this an either/or situation. One can have a degree, certs, AND experience. Ive seen more than enough posts online of an IT professional saying a degree got them a bump in position and pay when coupled with their certs and experience.

Thats the thing I cannot understand...that when some people downplay a degree...they always dream up a degree holder with zero certs and zero experience.

From what I've seen, it's always been stated that having all 3 is optimal, BUT you also have to rate the 3 in order of importance, so if someone only has 2 of the 3 (or even 1 of the 3), which ones are better?

Personally I have no degree, but I expect at some point I will go get a bachelors (and possibly a masters). The certification track is more focused, and considerably cheaper, so it's a better ROI both in time and $ spent.

colemic

Thanks to whoever erepped me - but it doesn't show who you are, so PM me to get the preso... thanks!

N2IT

If you ever want to move into a business unit, such as procurement, finance etc (even in a hybrid role) the degree or masters degree, assuming it's accredited and aligned with your role, will help tremendously.

I work in a procurement department aligned with finance and strategy, degrees matter here, in fact my MBA has already gotten me noticed, since you have to have a higher level degree to move up to the next level. Certifications can mean something depending on what role you are assuming. They like for our enterprise architects to have TOGAF or SOA, I have seen this in our job descriptions we post out. My point, certification have a purpose, but so do degrees.

Of course it all depends on your situation, that's what makes the determination IMO.

hurricane1091

Food for thought, I have an AS and a CCNA, and no one really calls me for jr. network engineering roles. So take that for what it's worth. Is it because I only have a year of IT experience? Probably. Do I believe they would call me if I had a BS? Yes. So instead of waiting around for experience, I am going to do what I can do facilitate the process a bit.

Comparing things really is tough though. I'm smarter than a guy that's also 23 with just a BS and no certs, I can tell you that. And if I can get in the door for an interview for example, I could prove that. But what if I cannot get in the door because I do not have a BS? Or if I get in the door and someone has the same certs, but a BS? Impossible task to overcome? No, but it is still another obstacle.


The guy with all three is the guy that will be the most successful, and it's just the bottom line.

NOC-Ninja

I forgot to say that the thing that is missing with guys that are new with a degree is experience. A lot of the guys that i have met who just graduated feels that they can do it. I also feel that there is a anger inside senior engineers. I never understood that before. The new grad is missing a lot. Like deploying and connecting the dots. The thing that pisses them off too is they have to teach this new grad guy. Remember, not all people like to show their knowledge and tricks. I dont think its their fault since their school taught them that they have made it or they are teaching them everything they need to know.

This is the same problem as guys with lots of certs but cannot deploy or implement technologies. This will make sense when you get to the top.

discount81

I think education is very important I'd never put down anyone with a degree it is hard work, however a degree is definitely less important in 2015 than it was 15 years ago when I first began looking for work.
Personally speaking now that I am hiring people for technical positions I don't even take into consideration if they have university education or not, experience is far more important for technical roles.

My only issue with getting a degree for Americans is the cost, generally speaking a degree in computer science would probably pay itself off in the long run, but going to a University in America is awfully expensive, and the ROI is probably 10-15 years.
Obviously if you plan on going into management you will most likely need a degree, but if you just want to stay on the technical side of things you can get by without a degree.

When you take into consideration that you have 4 years to gain experience, certifications and work your way into a more senior role, you won't have a huge debt over your head, then you may end up better without a degree.
I've seen people with and without degree's earn over $150k a year, it comes down to the individual in the end.

AwesomeGarrett

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

The thing that pisses them off too is they have to teach this new grad guy.

I'm on the less popular side of this argument. I don't have time to teach L2 and L3 engineers technology, I have technology that I want to learn.

I feel that this thread got derailed.

Hondabuff

AwesomeGarrett wrote: »

I'm on the less popular side of this argument. I don't have time to teach L2 and L3 engineers technology, I have technology that I want to learn.

I feel that this thread got derailed.

This is good advice for someone in High School who is looking to get into the IT field. Find a school where when you are earning your degree, you will also be taking your CCNA/MCSE certifications. Aim for a 2 year degree coupled with certifications that will give you some experience by working hands on with equipment. If you plan on going into IT management then you are better off putting in the extra 2 years for your BS. While sitting in meetings you will be expected to act a certain way while conducting business with upper mgt. ROI on the operations side of IT is where you can make excellent money and will require you to job hop a few times to get to your Network Engineer / Admin role. My boss has said to before to that I'm an excellent Engineer on the operations side but a terrible communicator to how our upper managers want to hear things. So when we have projects to do, I meet with my boss and fill in the gaps with all the technical stuff that he doesn't speak and spins it back to upper management. No fault of my own but this is where if I took some classes in management I could probably bridge this gap. Some of upper managers are a pure pleasure to hear them speak and I wish I had that knack!

Networking_Student

TeKniques wrote: »

Here's my advice and 0.02 - if you go to college just major in something with a high ROI that's beneficial and you can use to grow your career. There's nothing wrong with going to college and getting a respectable degree.



Quite misleading to say the least. People who major in degrees with a low ROI have trouble in the job market. You can Google the list and it's not that surprising what's on it. Those who major in something that is actually worth something (Computer Science, Math, Business, Accounting, Law, Medicine, etc.) will have very little trouble finding a decent job.



Talk about anecdotal evidence. Where are these people? Coming up in IT most if not all of the executives and managers I reported to were college educated and never said anything like that to me. As a manager if I said that to one of my employees I would be embarrassed, and any manager that says that is not a good one.

Funny thing is, less than 15% of BBA, BSA, BBAA, actually keep their jobs after 90 days. Engineers? Less than 20% are able to keep careers as engineers. I had a Ph.D in Engineering dude unloading trucks with me at Walmart. Funny and amazing thing about Walmart is the sheer volume of degree holders of bachelors and higher degrees in business, accounting, art degrees, bachelor of art degrees.

Law Degrees? 51% of Law School Graduates with $120k+ debt are not able to get into law firms. Two hourly employees at $9.80 an hour working with me at Walmart had J.Ds. One in the bakery, the other was a cart attendant. You'd be truly shocked how many graduates really don't get work, or can't keep work in their respective fields of study.

Business degrees are practically a dime a dozen, buddy who is a McDonalds Manager with his GED in the UW District, hangs his GED in a plaque over his desk for his employees to see his education vs his position. He hires almost exclusively bachellor degree holders. Of his 42 employees, 30 of them are business degree holders. The rest are students pursuing or have other degrees.

That said, there are bachellor degree programs that really just seem to waste money. For example, USMA, West Point. Their information technology program (I have a friend in it right now) only teaches you for your CCENT, MTA Certs for Server, Security, and training in Python. (After seeing my friends projects in Python, it feels like they are just using CodeAcademy) and that's about it. This is for a BS in Information Technology.

My Associates in Technical Arts Program, will get me Server+, Linux+, CCNA, A+, Security+, and the MTA certs. Including certification for CEH. This is an Associates Degree in Computer Information Systems.

Even school to school can differ dramatically. Techies with certs, can get their degrees by auditing their certs. Two Network Engineers I know with their CCNAs, CISSP, CASP, Azure, and C++ Certification, and tested out of english math and science education via tests, they got all but 30 college credits for their bachelor degrees at CWU and EWU.

Another with Linux+, CCNA, and CASP with A+ got all credits for his ATA excluding english math and business classes. Certifications are what colleges educate towards, and make the difference massively of whether or not a program is worth it. I am not saying a college degree is useless, or whatever. But the only reason I'm studying for mine at all, is for the certifications I gain when I am finished with my program.

Same reason why I plan to pursue ITAM once I am finished with my Associates for Cyber Security. Since I'll already have a decent computer networking background from my ATA.

AwesomeGarrett

I believe these are the individuals people are looking down upon, the "I put in all this work for a degree and I'm just gonna coast through life on auto pilot" person.

Networking_Student

Nersesian wrote: »

- Funny thing is, less than 15% of BBA, BSA, BBAA, actually keep their jobs after 90 days. Engineers? Less than 20% are able to keep careers as engineers.

Citation needed.

NP looking for the news article.

Overall, Bachelor Degree in Business, Business Administration, and Business Administration and Accounting are the most common degrees in the world. Even three of my own family members have their Bachelor Degrees in business. ITAM are totally different overall, but business degrees are the single most common degrees to come by.

When I find the article I will be posting it.

The engineers issue is with Mechanical and Civil engineers. Being the two most commonly found engineering degrees globally as well, less than 20% actually work as development engineers. With the other 80% works as Millwrights, tradesmen in the construction trades, or work as mechanics.

Same reason why machine maintenance jobs require a BS in Mechanical Engineering. They are the two most saturated engineering degrees globally.

Zartanasaurus

I think "disrespect" is a bit harsh. But the fact is, you can rise up the ranks in IT without a college degree. Based on the RoI it really is unnecessary. That doesn't mean that the pursuit of higher education is wrong or should be scorned, just that the numbers don't add up in this industry.

Jon_Cisco

Networking_Student wrote: »

Business degrees are practically a dime a dozen, buddy who is a McDonalds Manager with his GED in the UW District, hangs his GED in a plaque over his desk for his employees to see his education vs his position. He hires almost exclusively bachellor degree holders. Of his 42 employees, 30 of them are business degree holders. The rest are students pursuing or have other degrees.

What is missing from this story is the long term effect of having a degree. It would be interesting to go 30 years in the future and see how the lifetime earnings match up between the employees and manager. My guess is unless your buddy buys the McDonald's he will eventually hit a ceiling in his position.

Networking_Student

Jon_Cisco wrote: »

What is missing from this story is the long term effect of having a degree. It would be interesting to go 30 years in the future and see how the lifetime earnings match up between the employees and manager. My guess is unless your buddy buys the McDonald's he will eventually hit a ceiling in his position.

As the General Manager of his McDonalds near a college, he makes more than $90,000. Has a 3200 sq ft house and a 2015 Mercedes to show for it. He lives in the same neighborhood as doctors and lawyers with a network server that I built with a router, three switches, four hubs and two desk tops per room hardwired, PS4 and XBOXONE per room, and a coffee maker that talks to him. He's yet to have a business degree employee leave and make anymore than $40k. With the exception of one who is a general manager of a Taco Bell several miles from his McDonalds with a $75,000 salary. Said employees Tax Transcript is in a frame sitting by my friends GED.

Walmart Store Manager is $120k and no college required, Walmart pays for education and training to perform the job of managing 400 employees. (My Walmart had 400) and Home Depot Store Managers are upwards of $75,000. And no positions require degrees outside of the retail companies IT Departments.

My Home Depot Store General Manager, she made $150k salary managing 105 employees and a $30 million store. 7 years working there, and had gotten her GED at 45 years old, only seven months of me being there. She left my store to manage a bigger one with an $30,000 increase in pay.

The notion someone would think a job would top out, simply because of a lack of degree is mind boggling.

Elegyx

Networking_Student wrote: »

As the General Manager of his McDonalds near a college, he makes more than $90,000. Has a 3200 sq ft house and a 2015 Mercedes to show for it. He lives in the same neighborhood as doctors and lawyers with a network server that I built with a router, three switches, four hubs and two desk tops per room hardwired, PS4 and XBOXONE per room, and a coffee maker that talks to him. He's yet to have a business degree employee leave and make anymore than $40k. With the exception of one who is a general manager of a Taco Bell several miles from his McDonalds with a $75,000 salary. Said employees Tax Transcript is in a frame sitting by my friends GED.

Walmart Store Manager is $120k and no college required, Walmart pays for education and training to perform the job of managing 400 employees. (My Walmart had 400) and Home Depot Store Managers are upwards of $75,000. And no positions require degrees outside of the retail companies IT Departments.

My Home Depot Store General Manager, she made $150k salary managing 105 employees and a $30 million store. 7 years working there, and had gotten her GED at 45 years old, only seven months of me being there. She left my store to manage a bigger one with an $30,000 increase in pay.

The notion someone would think a job would top out, simply because of a lack of degree is mind boggling.

Comparing people that work at WalMart and Home Depot is just silly in this case. Having a degree gives you your best shot at climbing the ranks in the corporate world. Outside of the rare cases where people just get lucky.

AwesomeGarrett

Lucky? What happened to just going after it and doing the darn thing.

Jon_Cisco

I don't find it mind boggling at all. A quick glance at glass door indicates the average McDonalds manager makes 28-58k. I don't expect that generic number to match any give situation but I needed to work with what was quickly available.

If you read my posts you will see that I always express individuals can succeed when they have the drive to. However I always revert back to statistics when faced with the generic should I get a degree question. Your post does not resolve my desire to see the outcomes 30 years from now. We simply do not have that information available to us.

colemic

Jon_Cisco wrote: »

What is missing from this story is the long term effect of having a degree. It would be interesting to go 30 years in the future and see how the lifetime earnings match up between the employees and manager. My guess is unless your buddy buys the McDonald's he will eventually hit a ceiling in his position.

That disparity is actually well documented and indiputable: I believe it's in the neighborhood of 500k over the average lifespan. While there may be outlier in the tech field, they are still outliers, and eventually not having a degree will become a glass ceiling as you progress higher and higher.

Fast Facts

Earnings and unemployment rates by educational attainment

Education: The Rising Cost of Not Going to College | Pew Research Center

networker050184

I think we all know these statistics are quite skewed when it comes to our little tech world. This doesn't take into consideration the fact that these people earning the high salaries could still be making them without the degree. In IT they certainly still can. Comparing a Physicist with a PHD salary to a drive through worker at McDonalds with a GED is not really revealing any useful information to us here as IT professionals. Especially at the 1000 ft view of these statistics.

A degree is just like anything else in this field. The more qualifications you have on paper the better. Take any single qualification off and you don't look as good. Get every qualification to help yourself you can, but don't be discouraged that you can't be successful in this field if you are missing one.