Explain to me the disrespect I see many tech people show to college degrees

LeBroke

Keep in mind that any longitudinal data over how much a grad vs. a non-grad will make throughout their lifespan is no longer relevant.

The data we are currently seeing is for people who got their degrees 30+ years ago. I.e. when degrees meant something almost right off the bat, and cost a fraction of what they do now. Universities didn't hand out BA degrees like candy, either.

Also, many people attending college 30 years ago would have been either from a higher SES, or had more drive/ambition than a typical college student now that is told to attend college by everyone, ignoring his desire or financial ability to do so.

Both of these factors serve as confounds for how much a graduate will actually make over a lifespan. For all we know, our kids might be having a discussion along the lines of, "I should have gone to trades, but I didn't work hard enough, dropped out, and had to do comp sci instead for my fallback. Guess I won't be seeing a good life for myself."

TeKniques wrote: »

Here's my advice and 0.02 - if you go to college just major in something with a high ROI that's beneficial and you can use to grow your career. There's nothing wrong with going to college and getting a respectable degree.

True, but what most millenials are told in high schools is, "Go to college and get a degree! Employers will respect you for it, and you will certainly be ahead of those who don't have one. Even an Art History degree is better than a diploma, or *gasp*, trade school!" without being told the nitty gritty details of how long they'll actually be able to pay it off. Hell, in my high schools, everyone from shop teacher to guidance councellors and the principal made it out that not getting a college degree or doing trades is the equivalent of grilling burgers and cleaning toilets at McDonalds for the rest of your life.

Quite misleading to say the least. People who major in degrees with a low ROI have trouble in the job market. You can Google the list and it's not that surprising what's on it. Those who major in something that is actually worth something (Computer Science, Math, Business, Accounting, Law, Medicine, etc.) will have very little trouble finding a decent job.

Someone above me already addressed it, but really, only comp sci and accounting still have a good ROI on this list. Law = $120-200k+ debt. Medicine = $200k+ debt, and making $50k for the first 3-4 years out of med school, although good job security. Also, both are explicitly doctoral degrees that require a Bachelor's first. Typical pre-reqs mean you will usually be stuck with an otherwise useless degree like philosophy or pre-med if you don't get in to med/law, and only about 1-10% of applicants actually manage to get in.

Talk about anecdotal evidence. Where are these people? Coming up in IT most if not all of the executives and managers I reported to were college educated and never said anything like that to me. As a manager if I said that to one of my employees I would be embarrassed, and any manager that says that is not a good one.

They've learned better by the time they're managers. First day on the job fresh out of college? Hah.

kly630

Networking_Student wrote: »

As the General Manager of his McDonalds near a college, he makes more than $90,000. Has a 3200 sq ft house and a 2015 Mercedes to show for it. He lives in the same neighborhood as doctors and lawyers with a network server that I built with a router, three switches, four hubs and two desk tops per room hardwired, PS4 and XBOXONE per room, and a coffee maker that talks to him. He's yet to have a business degree employee leave and make anymore than $40k. With the exception of one who is a general manager of a Taco Bell several miles from his McDonalds with a $75,000 salary. Said employees Tax Transcript is in a frame sitting by my friends GED.

Walmart Store Manager is $120k and no college required, Walmart pays for education and training to perform the job of managing 400 employees. (My Walmart had 400) and Home Depot Store Managers are upwards of $75,000. And no positions require degrees outside of the retail companies IT Departments.

My Home Depot Store General Manager, she made $150k salary managing 105 employees and a $30 million store. 7 years working there, and had gotten her GED at 45 years old, only seven months of me being there. She left my store to manage a bigger one with an $30,000 increase in pay.

The notion someone would think a job would top out, simply because of a lack of degree is mind boggling.

That salary sounds a bit inflated, but might be the region and timing in their career. I worked the deli and then accounting office at Walmart immediately after my bachelors degree at a pretty good school in Michigan (instead of heading to law school), and the new assistant managers there were starting at under 40K and more experienced assistants (8 years) were hitting 60 - 70K. So there's a bit of a path to make it to the store manager level in an org like walmart.

All in all though, I think the financial return of a degree is highly dependent on a couple of variables. Whether or not you take on debt, the interest rates and time period you repay loans, the likelihood of getting a better job, and the amount you'll be paid at said better jobs all matter. I'd agree that given the market conditions out there, you'd be hard pressed to prove most degrees were good financial decisions. And we're seeing people figuring that out that in some areas right away. I think the decline of law schools is the perfect example of that.

philz1982

I've got a BS in Business Studies making 150k. The BS was just to pass HR screening. Its harder to get out of operations without a BS.

These statistics are scewed. Also managers of stores make a low base with a profitability incentive so totally salary is variable. Also store managers have no bearing on IT jobs.

Also who cares what a person who works at Mcds or walmart has? I must not be running into the Drs and Lawyers at Mcds and Walmart based on the people I've dealt with.....

Finally you don't need a degree to make 6 figures. It just makes it easier and comparing accounting and jd degrees to IT work makes no sense not sure why that was brought up.

jaycrewz

Networking_Student wrote: »

Funny thing is, less than 15% of BBA, BSA, BBAA, actually keep their jobs after 90 days. Engineers? Less than 20% are able to keep careers as engineers. I had a Ph.D in Engineering dude unloading trucks with me at Walmart. Funny and amazing thing about Walmart is the sheer volume of degree holders of bachelors and higher degrees in business, accounting, art degrees, bachelor of art degrees.

Law Degrees? 51% of Law School Graduates with $120k+ debt are not able to get into law firms. Two hourly employees at $9.80 an hour working with me at Walmart had J.Ds. One in the bakery, the other was a cart attendant. You'd be truly shocked how many graduates really don't get work, or can't keep work in their respective fields of study.

Business degrees are practically a dime a dozen, buddy who is a McDonalds Manager with his GED in the UW District, hangs his GED in a plaque over his desk for his employees to see his education vs his position. He hires almost exclusively bachellor degree holders. Of his 42 employees, 30 of them are business degree holders. The rest are students pursuing or have other degrees.

That said, there are bachellor degree programs that really just seem to waste money. For example, USMA, West Point. Their information technology program (I have a friend in it right now) only teaches you for your CCENT, MTA Certs for Server, Security, and training in Python. (After seeing my friends projects in Python, it feels like they are just using CodeAcademy) and that's about it. This is for a BS in Information Technology.

My Associates in Technical Arts Program, will get me Server+, Linux+, CCNA, A+, Security+, and the MTA certs. Including certification for CEH. This is an Associates Degree in Computer Information Systems.

Even school to school can differ dramatically. Techies with certs, can get their degrees by auditing their certs. Two Network Engineers I know with their CCNAs, CISSP, CASP, Azure, and C++ Certification, and tested out of english math and science education via tests, they got all but 30 college credits for their bachelor degrees at CWU and EWU.

Another with Linux+, CCNA, and CASP with A+ got all credits for his ATA excluding english math and business classes. Certifications are what colleges educate towards, and make the difference massively of whether or not a program is worth it. I am not saying a college degree is useless, or whatever. But the only reason I'm studying for mine at all, is for the certifications I gain when I am finished with my program.

Same reason why I plan to pursue ITAM once I am finished with my Associates for Cyber Security. Since I'll already have a decent computer networking background from my ATA.

I'll be honest and say I'm taking what you say with a grain of salt. Fact of the matter is that the stats bear out that a person's average salary over their lifetime is much higher if they have a bachelors degree or higher. That's the simple reality.

Plus let's not pretend that there are not tons of people with certifications who cannot find jobs. The job market can be very tough on us all.

TeKniques

So OP - forget about a degree and IT jobs, you need to focus on becoming a store manager at Walmart, Home Depot, or run a fast food restaurant. Not only that, but you'll have a 3200 sq. foot house and a 2015 Mercedes. Who would of thought?

Still waiting for all the citations for some of the claims made. I tried to do the research, but all I could validate was that only 51% of law degree students get jobs at law firms:
Law School And Student Loan Debt: Be Careful - Forbes

But then again ... from the same source all these degrees apparently have a solid ROI:
Surprise: Humanities Degrees Provide Great Return On Investment - Forbes

LeBroke wrote: »

They've learned better by the time they're managers. First day on the job fresh out of college? Hah.

zzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZ

discount81

kly630 wrote: »

That salary sounds a bit inflated, but might be the region and timing in their career.

Retail can pay very well depending on the companies incentive structure, generally speaking it is a low paying position but I've worked with some sales aces who made over $200k a year working in a retail position.

I worked in a cell phone store for a few years, after I made store manager my base salary was $48k.
I had a monthly sales target for the store, if I reached 100% I received an extra $2000, the more I went over, the more money I made, my store was a busy store so I regularly made 120% or so, which was $2500 in bonuses.

That wasn't all, every month there was always incentives from phone manufacturers, sell this product and you get $10-$15 extra per sale.
In a normal month if I did my job, hit my target and sold 100 or so bonus phones, I'd get $3000-$5000 extra on top of my base salary.
This was when I was 20-23 (10+ years ago) with not much other experience, in my best year I took home $110k.

So an experienced retail manager running a walmart/home depot type store, I would not be surprised if they made $150k.

The retail companies who pay well, expect results and put an incredible amount of stress on their staff to deliver every month, if you miss target for 2 months straight you better have another job lined up.

I took a help desk job paying peanuts just to get out, the stress wasn't worth it, and other retail companies who weren't as pressure sales driven did not pay well enough for me to bother staying.

Networking_Student

jaycrewz wrote: »

I'll be honest and say I'm taking what you say with a grain of salt. Fact of the matter is that the stats bear out that a person's average salary over their lifetime is much higher if they have a bachelors degree or higher. That's the simple reality.

Plus let's not pretend that there are not tons of people with certifications who cannot find jobs. The job market can be very tough on us all.

With data that is old. My point, was that a substantial amount of people with degrees, end up in lower paying jobs anyway, and that even those without degrees, can make substantially more than some with degrees. You're looking at examples, and not the message being conveyed.

TeKniques, I'm pulling the articles I've come across. I never saved links, and you are missing the story from 2010 of a JD Graduate with $200k debt that is working for $8.55 at Target. That article linked a great deal of data concerning lack of jobs for those with JDs.

And I'm still looking for the article of over saturation of business major BAs, BSs, BBAs, and BAAs in the american, and international markets. Making up the largest body of student majors, and graduates from bachelor level programs being dominantly business majors.

The University of New York was one of the institutions cited in it, with more than 30% of their graduates in 2012 if I remember correctly being business majors. The article went on to cite UW Bothell, UCLA, TSU, and ASU. With 2012 having business majors making up around 1/3rd of the total graduates of those schools as well. Or a least they were around 1/3rd.

The same article went on to discuss job issues because of the saturation of business majors, which "forces" companies to require Master Degrees for positions that would originally have been bachelor degrees.

Networking_Student

philz1982 wrote: »

I've got a BS in Business Studies making 150k. The BS was just to pass HR screening. Its harder to get out of operations without a BS.

These statistics are scewed. Also managers of stores make a low base with a profitability incentive so totally salary is variable. Also store managers have no bearing on IT jobs.

Also who cares what a person who works at Mcds or walmart has? I must not be running into the Drs and Lawyers at Mcds and Walmart based on the people I've dealt with.....

Finally you don't need a degree to make 6 figures. It just makes it easier and comparing accounting and jd degrees to IT work makes no sense not sure why that was brought up.

Same, and only reason why I am even considering going through school for my IT Certs and Degree. And suffering the classes totally worthless to my chosen career field.

And studying for certs on the side of my school and school certs to get ahead with college credits. Overall I find general ed classes unnecessary since none of them further any kind of knowledge or skills related to the field.

The core classes related to IT I greatly enjoy, just wish I could just get to the training and education I need, over the education that has no bearing on my career.

TeKniques

@ Networking_Student - A JD Graduate with $200k debt working at Target for $8.55 /hr. to me means there is more going on than a bad job market. It's an extreme case which I think we can all agree are out there. I agree that a vast majority of graduates end up in lower paying jobs struggling to make it, but a major reason for this is because of the student loan racket and a lot of people getting degrees with poor ROI.

MeanDrunkR2D2

Wow... Had I known, I should have never gone to college to get into IT and stayed working at RadioShack. I made over 50k a year as a sales person there and later became a manager. Oh yea, I kept the same salary, but worked double the hours as a manager at RadioShack, but had I stuck with that path, I could have become manager at a better store, and possibly made 60-70k a year. After more years of that grind, I could have really moved up and become Regional Manager at RadioShack and brought home a fat 80k a year and maybe I'd own a 2013 c class Mercedes and a 2400 Sq Ft house down the road from Dr's and Lawyers. Man, I could just imagine how great a career in retail would have been had I stuck it out with RadioShack and forgot about my degree and love of IT and tech in general.

Oh wait, I don't miss that at all. I don't regret getting my degree at all and I do believe that it has helped me greatly in my IT Career. Sure, that guy who makes bank managing a McDonalds may look like he has a great life, until you realize that he manages a McDonalds (Or manages a Wal-Mart, or really any fast food/retail company). I wouldn't feel the pride of doing those jobs for those companies. I know how they eat up and chew people and will usually set them up to fail. When I was with RadioShack, it was literally killing me. I gained weight. I drank to extremes when I got off work (Would usually polish off a 18-24 pack A NIGHT) and would work 80+ hours a week. I wouldn't wish that type of job on anyone. Now, I make good money, in a field that I love and I actually enjoy coming into work and doing my job. That wasn't the case when I worked retail.

The only regret I have with my degree is that I still owe a ton on student loans. I wish I would have done it smarter and worked while I was going to school so I could have paid for most, if not all of it at that time. I'll have it paid off in less than 3 years, which will be great to have that done and gone with. But I don't think that I would have had half the interviews I've had, nor the offers that I've had without my degree. If you were to sit 2 people down and they have the same certs, experience and they both have great personalities and the only difference is that one has a degree, I'd pick the guy/girl with the degree over the other. Why not better yourself and get that degree? Anything to put yourself in a better position down the road. And if you are already working in IT, there is nothing wrong with doing online/night/weekend classes and taking a few extra years to get that degree while you continue to work and fully pay for your education and get that degree debt free. Heck, most companies will even PAY you a portion for relevant courses in your college plans. Sure, you have to promise to stay there for so long after you get that money, but if you have been paying it off as you go and taking only a few classes every semester you can get that degree with no debt. How cool is that? Even better if the college you choose also gets you discounts or on paths to get certs at the same time. That's a win win win.

jaycrewz

MeanDrunk,

Dude my first job out of college was a retail management job. Gosh did I hate that. I just couldnt deal with the rolling schedule and weird hours. Plus I hated that I was managing mostly highschool and college kids. I envisioned myself being in the office world or some other world with adults.

The company itself was not bad, they did invest in me, sent me away for training for a week, and my boss was amazing. He really thought I could go places with the company. He was very successful himself and the company traveled him around a bit and put a lot of trust in him.

Anyways, retail is a grind and not for everyone...and Im glad Im not there anymore.

TeKniques wrote: »

@ Networking_Student - A JD Graduate with $200k debt working at Target for $8.55 /hr. to me means there is more going on than a bad job market. It's an extreme case which I think we can all agree are out there. I agree that a vast majority of graduates end up in lower paying jobs struggling to make it, but a major reason for this is because of the student loan racket and a lot of people getting degrees with poor ROI.

This.

In my second job after college, we had a recent JD grad there doing real estate research while he tried to break into financial law. He was making likely double that about at $18 an hour which was the average for the entry level jobs we were doing. And these jobs were not the hardest to get.

While that still isnt a super great salary, if someone with a graduate degree of some kind is making retail money, they likely are not looking hard enough for better work. Btw, the JD guy ended up leaving in 3 months onto better pastures...and in a tough job market...and in a big metro area thats mega competitive when it comes to law.

MrAgent

I just want to chime in.
Before I started my degree I was making over 100k. I was a systems engineer for a govt agency. This was in 2006. I graduated in 2010. Back then I didn't feel like I needed the degree (I also didn't have a single certification), just years of experience and a clearance.

Ill be finishing my Masters degree in May, and my current salary is ~150k. I don't know that i'll get a bonus for completing this while working here or not.
I don't know that I would have been contacted by the recruiter for my current employer (Lockheed Martin) had I not had my degree and working towards my masters.

I will say that having my BS and almost having completed my MS has certainly unlocked more doors for me, and will eventually allow me to move on to executive roles, which is my end goal.

The ROI for my BS is there, I won't know if its there for my MS for some time. I do feel it has all been worth it, and its a personal accomplishment, as no one in my immediate family has gone to college, let alone be on the cusp of finishing a Masters.

Enough of my rambling.

tldr: Everyone's situation is different.

NetworkNewb

I think it comes down to, yes, you can do just fine and make a bunch of money without out a degree. Having one just opens more doors and possibilities for you. I know alot of companies that won't hire anyone without one.

Is the ROI for a degree there? maybe, maybe not. Maybe you would've gotten farther faster if you had one. Maybe you would just be where you're at now still. I know I definitely like my odds of getting a job over someone without one and being able to get a job at those companies that require one though.