Interesting education discrimination email I got today

dbzrfl

I should not have used such a broad Generalization, I am at working trying to post, while replacing a old patch panel.
I think higher certs count, I do not put as much faith in comptia certs, because they have a cert for just about everything now.
When a position opens up here, I want experince I want a degree that is IT related and the last thing I look at is certs.

apr911

dou2ble wrote: »

I agree that your response was a bad idea for a few reasons.

1) You're building your network
2) The same close minded people there have a network of their own.
3) They will mature/grow up and move to other positions that might intersect with your future path.
4) You might have dodged a bullet, but they're probably thinking the same thing based on your response.
5) Most importantly it's always better to be the bigger person.

In this case, I have to agree the OP was wrong to respond in the manner they did but not for the reasons listed... I dislike the reasons listed because:

1) Beware of building your bridges with the wrong people
2) Beware of building your bridges with the wrong groups
3) Someday your path may cross again and what you do may or may not come back to haunt you... Burning bridges doesnt have to be a bad thing. A burnt bridge prevents you from going back to a place you never should have been to begin with. I have burnt bridges with past managers whom I would likely not want to work for again and frankly, Im better for it. In the ashes of those bridges, I built stronger bridges with colleagues and other managers who have come to respect my opinion. While the OP doesnt have a stronger bridge to show for it, its unlikely the OP has left such an impression that they've permanently burned the bridge for themselves.
4) Who cares what they're thinking? Its impossible to please everybody so you shouldn't spend all your time caring what other people think about you. Frankly, most people dont care as much as you think they do.
5) Yes, we're all taught its better to be the bigger person but we all learned that sometimes being petty feels better and its human nature to seek out behaviors that make us feel good. That's not to say we should all stop trying to be the bigger person.

Now, as I said, I do agree the OP was wrong to respond in the manner they did but for different reasons:

1. The OP has now cemented the recruiter/hiring manager's opinion on WGU grads. This is similar to #3 and #4 but has less to do with opinions about one's self and more to do with opinion's about a group. By responding to the recruiter's inquiry about WGU, the OP took up the banner as a representative of WGU. Now instead of thinking of WGU grads as potential hires if they're primary school choices dont pan out, they'll think twice about bringing someone in from WGU because of the capricious nature exhibited by the OP. The OP, while not concerned about their own reputation or bridge, may have burned the reputation and bridge for anyone associated with WGU.

2. Contrary to what most people here see, I do not see an inherent insult in the comment of the recruiter that they are only looking at people from certain schools. Back when I graduated highschool, I had lived all of my life in a 100 mile or less radius from my parents house and I therefore had a bias towards B&M schools in that area when I chose a school. In some ways, I still do but having now lived in PA, TX and CA and having gradutated form WGU, I have been able to see past it. While I still have a preference for schools I know it does not however mean that Im not going to ask about a school I've never heard of before. Taking offense where no insult was intended is most certainly bad form.

Akaricloud wrote: »

You can post about ideally how the world should be, but the reality is this is how it's thought about. Could you have gone about it differently and easily overcome this? -Likely. The fact that you weren't willing to says a lot about you as a candidate. I do quite a bit of hiring myself and would never hire anyone with this idealistic, defensive attitude.

You can't expect every HR person to be perfect, but they CAN expect you to be.

Honestly, up until the OPs final response, I fail to see any issue with their responses. The initial response to the inquiry about WGU, while not how I personally would have explained it (Personally I would have used
srabiee's comment "simply tell them it's a state school in UT and leave it at that."), they were respectful and informative. Frankly, having done hiring myself, I always research the companies, positions, certificates, schools, etc on a persons resume... I'm still going to ask about it as if I dont know so that I can see the OPs response (are they disparaging towards their amma mater and the fact its online or are they supportive of it?) but I still know something about it.

I think the OP is right to ask the question why the recruiter didnt do their own research. If they had googled it, they would have known immediately that it wasn't what they were looking for and they wouldn't have had to engage with the OP at all.

N2IT wrote: »

I'm actually surprised this doesn't happen more often, let's face reality, Georgia Tech, Stanford etc are superior to almost every school including on line Universities.

Thats a rather bold statement... What makes them superior and what exactly are they superior to? Many jobs are recruiting college dropouts and many of the stalwarts of Silicon Valley (and thus our industry) are founded by people who didn't finish school. They may have attended Standford, Harvard, etc but they didnt finish. I suppose the argument could be made that these schools are so superior that they can turn out "better" educated people in less time but why then dont they confer degrees in less time?

dou2ble wrote: »

Sure HR can use Google but they don't need to sell you, you do.

I disagree, interviews are as much about selling yourself as the candidate for the company as it is about the company selling itself as the career choice for the candidate. Granted you're experience with the big 4 is almost certainly going to be different because they have already done such a bang up job of selling themselves as "THE" place to work.

Iristheangel wrote: »

I'm a little confused on your communication style. I guess you're still working up to those GE classes

As far as degrees/certs/experience == job, we all sell ourselves. I think the justification for my job title and pay is a combination of those things. Could I have this job without one of those things? My degree level (not my school) and certifications were subjects brought up in the multiple interviews I had for my current position. It gave my manager justification to give me the salary I asked for and it continues to be something that is highlighted in internal emails to our leadership. My academic achievements and my pursuit of continuous education is something that has rewarded me.

As far as whether a online degree is the same as a brick and mortar degree? It all depends. I think it depends on the school and how much you put into it. I've met idiots with CS degrees from great institutions and I've met people who've blown me away from DeVry

For the recruiter from the OP's original post, wash your hands and move on. I am sure that person giggled with her/his little HR buddies as they sent you that e-mail and they're small people in the scheme of things. When you finally get a great developer job and move up, you'll make more money, have more job security and enjoy a much better lifestyle so don't sweat the small petty people you'll meet. The best revenge is living well

And LoL on the reply. Yes, it could have been more professional and so could the recruiter but no one is perfect.

As usual Iris has hit the nail right on the head.

dou2ble

I'll admit I didn't read the whole thing but I can respond with something far shorter. Every working professional is always building their network. Word of mouth is very powerful. If person A responds unprofessionally to person B and Person C just happens to catch a bit of it without knowing all the details then their impression might be that both person A and B are unprofessional. Person A has now burned 2 bridges. Would of been easier to be professional, burn bridge B and possible build C in the future. Always better to act professionally. Not sure why I even have to explain this. lol! Sure you can always find exceptions but in general this is best practice.

At our level an interview might be 50/50 and we can pick and choose. But for the OP he's still proving himself, looking to enter the developer realm, and has far more selling/proving to do.

LeBroke

Honestly, despite the conversation, I personally think proper 4-year B&M degrees are (on average) still better than online courses, no matter how good. Here's my reasoning:

1. You get to hang out with people doing the same thing as you are. For example, you might be the only person who likes computers and programming in your social circle, but studying comp sci at a B&M school, you will interact with basically everyone else that is also into computers. You might bounce ideas, start projects together, perhaps build something useful that can eventually go on your portfolio. Sure, you might also watch Archer and smoke weed most of the time, but that's more a result of having too much free time than it is of going to a B&M school.

2. You get to talk to your professors and network with them. Especially with smaller schools or more hands-on programs. Most people will waste it (I certainly did for my non-related degree), but it's there if you want it. A mentor figure is always great to have, and they can often teach you many things you won't necessarily learn in class, or point you to things you might love but aren't covered in class.

3. You get to network. Sure, depending on how your online school is set up, you might talk to a few people on the forums, but you're missing out on networking with people that are your friends now, and will be your colleagues in the future. For example, what if one of your buddies gets a job at a company you really want to work at? Even if they won't hire you on his word, he can always let you know way ahead of time they may be looking for another person. Or simply you get a group of people that may have differing interests and career paths you can ask for advice and a second opinion.

Now, would I hire someone with an online degree? Hell yes. Why? Because people who come back for online degrees later in life are people who want to improve. Chances are, they'll be just as useful as people with better credentials that are complacent where they are. They are hungry, and showing it by getting that degree. Many work full time as well while they do it too, which shows ethic and dedication.

But for students, B&M degrees are IMO much better. The issue is, not everyone can afford them anymore, especially later in life where they have kids/partner/bills/mortgage/no parental support.

olaHalo

Thacker wrote: »

"
****,
Thanks for the update. After reading the glassdoor reviews for your company, I would no longer be interested in the position even if something was to change on your end.

Thank you,
*****
"

Good job!
Much better than saying "thanks for not hiring me because of my education"

dou2ble wrote: »

I agree that your response was a bad idea for a few reasons.

1) You're building your network
2) The same close minded people there have a network of their own.
3) They will mature/grow up and move to other positions that might intersect with your future path.
4) You might have dodged a bullet, but they're probably thinking the same thing based on your response.
5) Most importantly it's always better to be the bigger person.

No it doesnt matter. We're talking about some random company with BS policies and a low employee rating.
Calling them out for it might actually make them improve and realize it.

If more people responded this way instead of being a "yes man" things might actually change

NetworkNewb

Personally I think the OP kinda screwed himself when describing the college as a "online non profit offering self paced studies and personalized scheduling. ".

Should have just said that "WGU is a college that is located ______ (where ever WGU is located) and I currently live in the Atlanta area though." The link the to college isn't even necessary. I think the way he described it makes the college sounds a little sketchy. Especially calling it a "online non profit offering", you didn't even call it a college, but an "offering".... Just my 2 cents!

dou2ble

olaHalo wrote: »

Good job!
No it doesnt matter. We're talking about some random company with BS policies and a low employee rating.
Calling them out for it might actually make them improve and realize it.

If more people responded this way instead of being a "yes man" things might actually change

You really believe that? 100's of candidates and one responding like he did I'm sure will get them to change their ways. And he's in a market that's already tough to break into for developers. Being professional is very different from being a "yes man". I remember interviewing a guy for a big 4 position and he showed up in business casual with no tie. Everyone else was suit and tie because that's expected. This isn't being a "yes man" but about putting your best foot forward. But everyone's entitled to their own opinion. For the OP it's the opinion of those hiring that effects him most.

kly630

apr911 wrote: »

1. The OP has now cemented the recruiter/hiring manager's opinion on WGU grads. This is similar to #3 and #4 but has less to do with opinions about one's self and more to do with opinion's about a group. By responding to the recruiter's inquiry about WGU, the OP took up the banner as a representative of WGU. Now instead of thinking of WGU grads as potential hires if they're primary school choices dont pan out, they'll think twice about bringing someone in from WGU because of the capricious nature exhibited by the OP. The OP, while not concerned about their own reputation or bridge, may have burned the reputation and bridge for anyone associated with WGU.

I think this point can't be understated. All responding like this does is make it harder for the next guy coming along from the school.

I like to think about my brick and mortar college as a "brand" of sorts. I've been stamped by my school and people have expectations about what the product is like. And every interaction with an employer/org is a chance to grow the brand or diminish the brand (and by extension my own).

Brick and mortar schools have a lot of built up brand rep from past interactions from previous grads, so it's easier sometimes to get simple things like interviews based on that rep. You just don't have that same brand rep from an online school, so you have to learn to work around it however you can. Although, I'm not sure slightly rude responses to feeler emails from recruiters help work around those problems.

seigex

In the end it doesn't matter what you feel about what you were told. The company pays their own money for labor and has to satisfy their investors, and they get to choose who they hire, whether you like it or not. If they want people from a certain college, that's their prerogative. I have no degree, and regardless of 30 years of proven experience, there are some jobs I simply can't get. I will never complain about it, I'll just look elsewhere.

I agree with those who say don't burn a bridge. You never know when an HR person might be canned, or maybe they'll come back when they can't find someone suitable with a degree and give you a chance. Once that bridge is burned, you can count on that never happening again. Also with LinkedIn becoming so prevalent in recruitment, you never know who might be networked with the person who you sent that reply to. People talk.

To be honest, if I were able to link you (OP) up to someone in real life, I'd pass on you. To me you would cause me problems by complaining every time I make a decision you don't like.

JMHO

Good luck!

--chris--

This recent trend of putting a second tier rating on online schools feels awfully similar to the hard "Degree" requirement many companies clung to until about 15 years ago (could be longer, I am young).

This phase will probably pass just as the degree requirement seems like it lessened in the past 5-10 years.

I wish OP would reply to this email if only to put the facts out there and see what the HR and/or Manager would say about WGU carrying the same accreditation as other "Big" schools in the western states.

brewboy

lol... stigmata

brewboy

"but we all know the stigmata that go's along with online schools."

and "go's"
lol

Iristheangel

Stigmata? I never knew that online schools were so painful :P

ChickenNuggetz

brewboy wrote: »

"but we all know the stigmata that go's along with online schools."

and "go's"
lol

Iristheangel wrote: »

Stigmata? I never knew that online schools were so painful :P

Just fyi, "stigmata" used in this context is techinically correct as "stigma" and "stigmata" are synonymous in modern English. From a linguistics perspective, "stigmata" is actually the plural of "stigma".

Source: My undergraduate degree was in ancient philology and linguistics.

Iristheangel

LOL. Guess you learn some thing new every day...

beads

DoubleNNs wrote: »

Is WGU a state school? What's makes a school a "state school?"

A state school is one that is land chartered by the state in which it resides.

beads

There are a number of questionable pay-for-play (private) schools out there that have played well into the brick and mortar schools hands. I will not go into listing them but there are names you should at least recognize. Those schools should simply go away in my opinion. We probably have too many schools in the first place. Its a matter of market forces at work. Produce good quality graduates or get out of the business entirely and save my tax dollars for a more deserving school.

In the past 25 years, 132 private colleges have packed it up and quit the business. A short but interesting read. Also please see Mark Cuban's take on, in his view, the coming implosion of higher education. - College closings chart - Business Insider

For the record, I have attended both traditional brick and mortar as well as remote and online courses. I still lean heavily to the traditional even if its a pain to do so. Personally, I see more overall value in direct intervention with both classmates and instructors and added benefit of campus life (lectures, etc.) You only get out of it what you put into it (Garbage In Garbage Out).

- b/eads

UnixGuy

beads wrote: »

...
For the record, I have attended both traditional brick and mortar as well as remote and online courses. I still lean heavily to the traditional even if its a pain to do so. Personally, I see more overall value in direct intervention with both classmates and instructors and added benefit of campus life (lectures, etc.) You only get out of it what you put into it (Garbage In Garbage Out).

- b/eads

^^ And this has been my personal experience too.

Having said that, the key is knowing how to handle interviews and tough situations. If you're worth your salt and know how to talk and act (and back it up with experience) then you will make it in IT (even without a degree).

justanotherday

I just happened on this post and thought that the others in the thread got it right.

1. Don't feel bad or get down on yourself. You know you worked hard at attaining your degree.

2. Not to be a jerk but the way you described WGU wasn't good, in fact it was almost if you were trying to apologize for what WGU is. I think "sketchy" was the word someone used in this thread to describe it, which I would agree with. Just give them the link like you did. If they are too lazy to properly investigate and verify the accreditation while just make assumptions then you don't want to work for them anyway.

3. You wouldn't want to work there anyway and especially after they passively didn't describe why they didn't accept WGU.

4. The way you responded was fine after what they responded with. There are sooooo many other companies and recruiters out there and you will eventually find a job.

5. I just obtained a position at a fortune 50 financial organization and they didn't flinch at my degree from WGU. If it was good enough for them then I'm sure it is good enough. BTW my friend who has 2 bachelors degrees from a well known brick and mortar university got fired from this same bank and my position is 2 levels above his. Brick and mortar schools have their place for people who like to spend hours in traffic, and accruing debt.

6. The bottom line is they need to judge the person and they didn't even give you that chance.

7. Like any other school networking is almost as important as the degree. See if you can find other WGU students/graduates and network with them for learning and opportunities.

8. I always hear people telling others not to burn bridges and I think that is a good rule in general to TRY to follow. However, there are times when you just have to blow that bridge sky high and call it like it is.