Each day my mind continues to be blown... religious request from potential employer

bloodshotbetty

cyberguypr wrote: »

Am I the only one who is not surprised by the stuff that religious or political entities get away with?

Not surprised in the least.

Thacker

LeBroke wrote: »

I swear I just saw this post at either r/Jobs or r/Sysadmin..

I posted this on r/jobs. It's the same screen name

BigTone

I actually just left a position like this. Before I accepted the position I did a google search because it also said something about tobacco use Exact wording here:

"we are committed to a lifestyle based on Biblical principles, deduced
from Scripture that guide us in our thoughts and actions. We have, therefore, established
some moderate standards to govern our community lifestyle.
We prohibit gambling, the use of non-commercial drugs, tobacco (in any form), drunkenness,
dishonesty, stealing, profanity, premarital sex, adultery, homosexual behavior, sexually explicit
material, and similar practices which are not consistent with XYZ Non profit standards.
We expect membership in and regular attendance at worship services of a Bible believing
local church on Sunday to make it a special day set apart from other activities of the week."


What I found especially with the tobacco use thing (at least in Illinois) they could actually make that request because the company was a non-profit.

It wasn't a deal breaker for me, I do enjoy a cigar once or twice a year, and I doubt they would ever have known, but turns out the job really sucked and I ended up getting a better position less than a year later.

Thacker

BigTone wrote: »

I actually just left a position like this. Before I accepted the position I did a google search because it also said something about tobacco use Exact wording here:

"we are committed to a lifestyle based on Biblical principles, deduced
from Scripture that guide us in our thoughts and actions. We have, therefore, established
some moderate standards to govern our community lifestyle.
We prohibit gambling, the use of non-commercial drugs, tobacco (in any form), drunkenness,
dishonesty, stealing, profanity, premarital sex, adultery, homosexual behavior, sexually explicit
material, and similar practices which are not consistent with XYZ Non profit standards.
We expect membership in and regular attendance at worship services of a Bible believing
local church on Sunday to make it a special day set apart from other activities of the week."


What I found especially with the tobacco use thing (at least in Illinois) they could actually make that request because the company was a non-profit.

It wasn't a deal breaker for me, I do enjoy a cigar once or twice a year, and I doubt they would ever have known, but turns out the job really sucked and I ended up getting a better position less than a year later.

Your quote about gambling really caught my attention.

I played poker professionally for almost 3 years, and it is listed as plain as day on my resume but I was still contacted by their HR which lead to what happened here.

Ironic, kinda.

BigTone

I didn't realize it until I was leaving but one of the employees (unmarried) was pregnant as well. I don't think they were going to do anything about her employment, but again being an at will company I suppose they could have if they wanted to.

jvrlopez

That's hilarious.

The first company I worked for after leaving the military used prayer as a big recruiting point. The interviewer mentioned it within the first 5 minutes of meeting him. The next interviewer mentioned it as well. The company also had weekly prayer sessions on Fridays during work hours. If you couldn't make it to the corporate office, they could make arrangements for you to video teleconference in!

The odd thing was I don't think the organization was religious based. I think the program manager just made it an agenda of his. Funny thing is when I didn't complete my 2 year contract at $12/hour and left for a position at $50k, he became very angry and said some things that I wouldn't have expected...

E Double U

jvrlopez wrote: »

Funny thing is when I didn't complete my 2 year contract at $12/hour and left for a position at $50k, he became very angry and said some things that I wouldn't have expected...

So he didn't say Godspeed. Hopefully you responded by saying that you will pray for him.

Heero

Russell77 wrote: »

This is religious discrimination plan and simple. It's the last line in the document that makes it so. I don't see anything wrong with pointing out the mission of the organization and asking potential candidates if they can respect the ideals of the organization but you can't hang a sign up and say convert from Judisam or other religions or you will not work here.

It certainly is religious discrimination. It is also perfectly legal, because they can prove that a BFOQ exists for the religious requirement due to the fact they are a Christian College.

Shdwmage

You applied for a religious institution. I'm really not surprised that they sent you this. I wouldn't have a problem signing it because it is based on my beliefs. That said I wouldn't choose to work for a religious organization that is different than what I believe. Everyone is entitled to their own belief set, but I wouldn't see a Muslim working in a Jewish school or the other way around. The religious discrimination is allowed because they are a religious institution. Now if this was just some company like Hobby Lobby trying to force this it would be another story.

I, for one, don't have a problem with religious discrimination for a religious institution. Everything they do functions around their beliefs, and if you don't believe their beliefs it makes it awfully difficult to follow.

The being said I don't like religious discrimination outside of this one context.

Thacker

Shdwmage wrote: »

You applied for a religious institution. I'm really not surprised that they sent you this. I wouldn't have a problem signing it because it is based on my beliefs. That said I wouldn't choose to work for a religious organization that is different than what I believe. Everyone is entitled to their own belief set, but I wouldn't see a Muslim working in a Jewish school or the other way around. The religious discrimination is allowed because they are a religious institution. Now if this was just some company like Hobby Lobby trying to force this it would be another story.

I, for one, don't have a problem with religious discrimination for a religious institution. Everything they do functions around their beliefs, and if you don't believe their beliefs it makes it awfully difficult to follow.

The being said I don't like religious discrimination outside of this one context.

I am going to have to definitely disagree with you there. A females rights organization refusing to hire males because they are pushing a feminist agenda is not above the law for discrimination. When you start making exceptions, the laws and protections in place really start to break down. With that said, religious organizations get away with far too much. Thankfully the up and coming generation is seeing it trend downward compared to how its been in the past, but the financial and legal restrictions that are put in place have always been out of hand.
/rantover

H3||scr3am

Take the job, and then create a network built on the bible....

whenever service goes out, tell them it'll be back (resurrect) in 3 days....

Make sure to turn off all IT equipment each Sunday via Cronjob, and leave it off for the entire day, as it needs rest....

Name the primary external firewall God, and the internal firewall Jesus....

core switches should be named after the apostles, and then just have fun from there.... Also make a script so that a PC named Cain kills a PC named Able every once in a while....

Shdwmage

Thacker wrote: »

I am going to have to definitely disagree with you there. A females rights organization refusing to hire males because they are pushing a feminist agenda is not above the law for discrimination. When you start making exceptions, the laws and protections in place really start to break down. With that said, religious organizations get away with far too much. Thankfully the up and coming generation is seeing it trend downward compared to how its been in the past, but the financial and legal restrictions that are put in place have always been out of hand.
/rantover

I am going to have to completely disagree with you. You are not comparing Apples to Apples here. A feminist organization isn't a religious institution. Religious institutions, in America, are explicitly separated from the state. The constitution was designed this way because of the interference of freedom of religion.

While in the case of IT it may not have any baring on the ability to do the job, for a teacher it means the difference between believing in the theory of evolution versus the theory of intelligent design. It matters in some contexts more than others. Additionally, it also matters in the fact that as a part of the employment at companies like this you are required to attend daily services.

Its not that I can't see your point, I just don't agree with it at all.

beads

One item no one has brought up is what do you tell your next employer about yourself and your career path after working for a Christian school? Are you going to be comfortable telling you next employer why you are seeking to leave or why you left? Your indicating something very personal about oneself as well. Can I assume if the network falls apart late on a Saturday night that you can be counted upon to help have it up and working on Monday or do you need to have Sunday off for religious reasons?

If your comfortable with these ideas, go for it. If not then find a more secular employer. I used to have fits having a mixture of different religions on a team to the point where I had several calendars available to tell me when NOT to schedule certain religious people around there particular holiday(s). Something I secretly will try to avoid again in the future. Yep! It's now a person prejudiced and if you read carefully, notice I said try to avoid.

- b/eads

dou2ble

Thacker wrote: »

I am going to have to definitely disagree with you there. A females rights organization refusing to hire males because they are pushing a feminist agenda is not above the law for discrimination. When you start making exceptions, the laws and protections in place really start to break down. With that said, religious organizations get away with far too much. Thankfully the up and coming generation is seeing it trend downward compared to how its been in the past, but the financial and legal restrictions that are put in place have always been out of hand.
/rantover

I also disagree with you. I believe in our constitution and it clearly separates state and religion. Feminism is not a religion. If they want to make it one then they have every right to do so. You say religious organizations get away with too much but I wonder if you're considering why the constitution clearly separates the two. What makes our nation great are these freedoms we enjoy. No other country in the world has them. I also don't understand why one would want to work for an organization if they disagree with the belief structure? If you're making fun of their beliefs here then you will probably undermine their beliefs if employed. I'd say it's equally advantageous for both parties to work in an environment where you agree with the beliefs or even policies in a non-religious corporation. I've moved on from a job over "new policies" I didn't like. I didn't cry discrimination. To me it sounds silly to be annoyed when there are plenty of other jobs out there.

olaHalo

A religious institution wants their employees to follow that religion? How dare they!

Joking aside if the job pays well Id go for it.

BradleyHU

while i'd never work at any religious place(christianity, jewish, muslim, hindu, etc) no matter the money, i don't see the problem with what they're asking you to sign, if thats what they want.

I tell ppl, i'm a mercenary, and i'll work for just about anyone that pays me well, but me & religion don't mix like oil & water.

kurosaki00

Hahaha thats awesome.

Was the pay enough to make you a believer? :P

Hmm I dont know, this document seems...
The pay is 150k $ plus benefits
By the lord almighty I shall sign this document!

aspiringsoul

As a graduate of Indiana Wesleyan Unviersity, I think this is a bit ridicolous...

Check this out though...not exactly illegal depending on the state's laws.

[h=1]Indiana Senate Says Yes To Faith-Based Hiring By State Contractors[/h]
Indiana Senate Says Yes To Faith-Based Hiring By State Contractors

"Non-Discrimination policy":

Non Discrimination Policy | HR | Indiana Wesleyan University

Basically what this says is that it's not legal or ethical to discriminate against someone based on their skin color, race, sex, age, disability, veteran status, but it is perfectly legal and ethical to discriminate against someone based on your religious beliefs.

Discriminate....

seigex

Simple solution. If you don't want to sign it, don't work there. They don't owe you a job, nor is it wrong that they ask people they hire to follow their biblical principles.

dou2ble

To the guy or gal who sent me this why don't you post it here, and include your opinion in relation to the current discussion.
"You obviously have no idea what separation of church and state actually means. Go look it up."

The actual wording "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution. It came from the Supreme Court when they referenced one of Thomas Jefferson's letters.

His words were, "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State"

I think he is saying that government, Federal or State, should not be telling any religious organization who they can or cannot employ, or what they can or cannot teach. And through the power of the constitution we got The Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Title VII

(e) Businesses or enterprises with personnel qualified on basis of religion, sex, or national origin; educational institutions with personnel of particular religion

Notwithstanding any other provision of this subchapter, (1) it shall not be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to hire and employ employees, for an employment agency to classify, or refer for employment any individual, for a labor organization to classify its membership or to classify or refer for employment any individual, or for an employer, labor organization, or joint labor­ management committee controlling apprenticeship or other training or retraining programs to admit or employ any individual in any such program, on the basis of his religion, sex, or national origin in those certain instances where religion, sex, or national origin is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of that particular business or enterprise, and (2) it shall not be an unlawful employment practice for a school, college, university, or other educational institution or institution of learning to hire and employ employees of a particular religion if such school, college, university, or other educational institution or institution of learning is, in whole or in substantial part, owned, supported, controlled, or managed by a particular religion or by a particular religious corporation, association, or society, or if the curriculum of such school, college, university, or other educational institution or institution of learning is directed toward the propagation of a particular religion.

Is this what you wanted me to look up?

olaHalo

dou2ble wrote: »

His words were, "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State"

I wasn't the one who pm'd you but my interpretation of that is to keep the state out of religious affairs.

ratbuddy

That went out the window when we made (state-endorsed) religions exempt from taxes.

BradleyHU

olaHalo wrote: »

I wasn't the one who pm'd you but my interpretation of that is to keep the state out of religious affairs.

and vice versa...

FloOz

Well this made my day...