Education department auditing WGU

cyberguypr

The Education Department's inspector general is auditing Western Governors U over the faculty role in its competency-based programs.

In its annual work plan, the inspector general said it would “continue our work to determine whether Western Governors University complied with the Higher Education Act of 1965, as amended, and selected regulations governing institutional eligibility, program eligibility, disbursements and return of Title IV aid.”

A spokeswoman for the inspector general said Wednesday that the watchdog agency is auditing the university, and that the audit is ongoing. It's not clear how much risk the inquiry poses to Western Governors, but university officials and advocates for digital forms of education are taking it seriously.The inspector general’s interest in competency-based education so far has centered on federal definitions of what constitutes “distance education” versus correspondence courses.

Full story: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/15/education-departments-inspector-generals-high-stakes-audit-western-governors-u

iBrokeIT

Hahahaha well that probably explains why I received 3 unsolicited calls from the WGU course mentors in the last week when I previous received none in the past year+.

aderon

Anyone figure out the consequences of something like this? How would this affect the degree you receive from there? Is this something we should be worried about?

JoJoCal19

@aderon, unless there is an established precedent (I doubt there is), no one knows what the possible fallout of this would be. But I'm definitely keeping an eye on it.

ezy20004

I'm in the process of starting there March 1st. Is this a good idea to continue? I'm looking to get the degree so I can transfer it to other school's Master's program.

the_Grinch

It would seem to me that the only thing that would change is that courses would be considered correspondence courses instead and you might lose access to Federal financial aid. Seems the inspector general is very concerned in regards to Title IV and the requirement of regular-and-substantive contact between professors and students.

aspiringsoul

Well that's interesting....

On a personal note, I've had more interaction with my student and course mentors than I ever had with the facilitators in my online courses at my Brick and Mortar for my Bachelor.

Thanks for making us aware cyberguypr.

tpatt100

I think this is a good thing overall and this will spread the word to other schools who hopefully will take a proactive approach, audit themselves to make sure they are compliant.

Mike-Mike

i hope it turns out well for WGU, I had good experiences there. but if i am following along, it doesn't have any major impact on those of us who have already completed degrees correct?

colemic

Shouldn't impact those that have already graduated, outside of a potential impact to the perceived value of your WGU degree.

It's an interesting argument - on the surface, IMO WGU should be considered correspondence courses. Working on the MSML, the course 'mentors' hadn't posted in the online forums for a few of the classes in MONTHS. There were a lot of unanswered questions people were asking, and not getting any answers on.

OTOH, they need to get with the times and realize that their old model of seat time isn't a very effective measure for today's cutting-edge educational environment.

markulous

That's a good point, colemic. I went on the forums when I first started then basically never touched them afterwards. They seem pointless.

Better communication between the course mentors and taskstream would also be nice. If I can't figure out what taskstream is saying, then the mentors should be able to speak directly to the graders and give us better guidance.

sigsoldier

Just what I wanted to see as I'm finishing up my MSISA capstone, lol.

Dakinggamer87

Thanks for posting this I will keep an eye on this thread.

gespenstern

I'm not enthusiastic at all. First off, I'd like to point out that WGU education style is good for people, who are self-managed and self-disciplined and don't need much guidance on how to proceed. They just read materials and pass the tests.

This audit may force WGU and similar schools to employ more interactive approach when students will be bothered by constant calls from various mentors who'd just waste students' time.

But the worst thing here is the prices will go up and significantly because WGU will be forced to have more workforce to comply with all of this 'regular-and-substantive' BS regulations.

Some folks expressing here some frustration about questions unanswered on forums. Who cares as long as the price stays down? If you aren't a self-managed person and can't stand a self-paced approach (weren't you warned about that when you enrolled there?) where everything can be found on your own and you always need someone to guide you just because you can't read and understand what's written or understand videos -- then take a huge loan and go to a B&M school where someone will nurture you through all the process to your degree for a hefty sum that you'll be paying off for many years.

I personally hate this, these regulations is (amont other things) what causes tuition prices to go up.

Traditional education just can't keep up with the IT world volatility and that is why many companies don't ask for degree but certs instead. Basically, certs became a post-traditional education process in IT, but no, old style universities don't just want to go away -- they want your money and will make sure you pay.

dankadar

Having just graduated from WGU I really hope this doesn't affect my degree at all. Having a full time job made this the only degree I could have reasonably gotten since I could go at my own pace. I had a weekly call with my mentor throughout, although that call was mostly pointless. I could have gone to the specific course mentor anytime I wanted, but all the information I needed was readily available or could be found on Google so there was no need. The only time I interacted with a course mentor was for the final capstone project and he was extremely helpful.

plopbangcrash

To be fair they absolutely deserve to be audited. Between taskstream , lackadaisical involvement of course mentors. poor quality of course material in regards to testing. They have dropped or are actively dropping 3 multiple degree paths in the last year and have zero consistency in transfer policies. They need to either get themselves together otherwise they will most likely fall out of relevancy or worse.

sigsoldier

Check out this comment at the bottom of the article:

SammTheButcher- "Go to Glassdoor.com and read the reviews from employees about WGU. I am a former WGU employee and I can tell you that there is a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that are kept quiet due to high paid lawyers and coverups. While WGU is a great university at its surface its employees are treated like telemarketers and salespeople, they are more interested in forcing students to do the work to bring up their success numbers than paying their employees a salary commensurate with the national average at other universities. There is a high turnover rate for student mentors, and the further you go up the list of employees with 4+ years at the school the less there are. WGU has no tenure like other colleges, they are at will, they can terminate you at any time for anything. It is very rare to find an employee who has been there for 10 years because by then they have been overworked, underpaid, constantly threatened with their position over metrics that have nothing to do with their job or nothing the can do to change it.Mentors (both course and student) are expected to badger and constantly call students to get their work done but no matter what it is ultimately the student who has to do the work, you cannot force them to do it. All WGU is concerned with is the number and time of calls you make..they don't care about any other method of contact, but if you can't force a student to do the work and they fail, you are blamed and are written up for not doing your job, which basically amounts to harassment.
Tuition hasn't gone up in years, which equates to very low raises across the board. Bonuses (paltry at that) are based on metrics that most employees have no dealings with. Everything at WGU is done in the cheapest manner and that includes hiring of employees. I had to quit due to WGU not allowing me time to finish my PhD and forcing me to take vacation to do my sabbatical for my dissertation research, it was a major drain on my mental and personal resources not to mention WGU provides no tuition assistance for employees who want to get a post graduate degree. Most employees who finish their PhDs leave the university because they don't pay what is even remotely near the industry average.
WGU has devolved into a metrics driven university where students are numbers, not people...employees are told "We're a business not a Unversity" and upper management is being filled by people whose background is in sales or previous employees of Apollo group (UOP).
I wouldn't be surprised if WGU in the next 5 years falls to the same fate as UOP."

Mike R

I'd say not having Tenure is a good thing. There are tons of deadbeat professors out there who have no business teaching but nothing can be done about them till they choose to retire.

I can see where depending on where you live the https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Western-Governors-University-Salaries-E244719.htm might not be the greatest but considering it's a work from home job it's not shabby (at least in my state). I know plenty of people who would love a job like that with pay in that range.

aspiringsoul

Mike,

I could not disagree with you more in regard to your comment on tenure. The death of tenure is a bad deal for students, and especially teachers.

Imagine meeting your English professor by the trunk of her car for office hours, where she doles out information like a taco vendor in a food truck. Or getting an e-mail error message when you write your former biology professor asking for a recommendation because she is no longer employed at the same college. Or attending an afternoon lecture in which your anthropology professor seems a little distracted because he doesn’t have enough money for bus fare. This is an increasingly widespread reality of college education.
Many students—and parents who foot the bills—may assume that all college professors are adequately compensated professionals with a distinct arrangement in which they have a job for life. In actuality those are just tenured professors, who represent less than a quarter of all college faculty. Odds are that students will be taught by professors with less job security and lower pay than those tenured employees, which research shows results in diminished services for students.

Adjunct professors earn a median of $2,700 for a semester-long class, according to a survey of thousands of part-time faculty members. In 2013, NPR reportedthat the average annual pay for adjuncts is between $20,000 and $25,000, while a March 2015 survey conducted by Pacific Standard among nearly 500 adjuncts found that a majority earn less than $20,000 per year from teaching. Some live on less than that and supplement their income with public assistance: A recentreport from UC Berkeley found that nearly a quarter of all adjunct professors receive public assistance, such as Medicaid or food stamps. Indeed, many adjuncts earn less than the federal minimum wage. Unless they work 30 hours or more at one college, they’re not eligible for health insurance from that employer, and like other part-time employees, they do not qualify for other benefits.

Indeed, some suggest that many adjuncts are unable to provide students with the same quality instruction as do tenured faculty. Judy Olson, a longtime part-time professor who currently works as an adjunct at California State University, Los Angeles, acknowledged that her financial concerns sometimes detract time from lesson planning. She cited other adjuncts who she said are unable to maintain independent research that could otherwise enrich classroom discussions. When administrators hire adjuncts only days before the class begins, she added, they can’t properly prepare syllabi and order books.

Adjuncts readily admit they cannot support students outside the classroom, such as when students need extra help understanding an assignment, general college advisement, or a letter of recommendation for a graduate program. And even if they had the time to provide these services, many colleges don’t provide their adjuncts with office space, so they meet with their pupils in coffee shops or at library desks. Olson for her part said that in the past she’s had to meet with students by the trunk of her car, where she kept all her books and papers as she commuted between different college campuses. Without formal meeting spaces, students may find it difficult to locate their professors when they need assistance on their classwork.

The Cost of an Adjunct - The Atlantic

Adjuncts typically earn between $20,000 and $25,000 annually, NPR reports. Compare that to the average salary of $84,303 for full-time instructors and professors, according to the American Association of University Professors.

9 Reasons Why Being An Adjunct Faculty Member Is Terrible

Mike R

How many jobs out there have regular positions where your guaranteed a job year after year ? A perfect for instance is a English teacher I know who doesn't follow the pre planned syllabus, continually changes the requirements for a passing grade and then fails to communicate them to the students before papers are turned in leading to huge amounts of re writes. So complaints get called in and meetings are held between the teacher and student with a mediator and in the end the ruling is that however the teacher decides to teach is fine because she has been there for 20 years (ie tenure).

Performance should be the judging factor on whether a teacher stays or goes. If your students aren't learning and understanding then you don't deserve your job no matter how long you've been there. Teachers are no better or worse than anyone else they deserve the same benefits and pitfalls the rest of us deal with in the real world.

That being said sorry for hijacking the topic ! Back to productive comments.

colemic

gespenstern wrote: »

Some folks expressing here some frustration about questions unanswered on forums. Who cares as long as the price stays down? If you aren't a self-managed person and can't stand a self-paced approach (weren't you warned about that when you enrolled there?) where everything can be found on your own and you always need someone to guide you just because you can't read and understand what's written or understand videos -- then take a huge loan and go to a B&M school where someone will nurture you through all the process to your degree for a hefty sum that you'll be paying off for many years.

.

Are you serious? There should be no way to get clarification on a difficult concept, from a human being, that students should be forced to look it up, and learn it on their own? The Sstudent should care, if they are there to actually learn something useful. What service is WGU providing at that point? I'd be better off having Pookie U on my degree, since I wouldn't have any help with it.

cyberguypr

I am an extremely independent person when it comes to learning. Heck, most of the knowledge acquired throughout my career came from self-study. Enter WGU. I have zero issue with having to research. My GIANT issue is the way my some tasks worked for me:

WGU: "sorry, you failed, please revise"
CyberGuyPR: "Sure, can you clarify what the expectation of the task is? I fell like I addressed all the points correctly and in detail".
WGU: "You should do XYZ. Make sure you justify it off (insert framework here)"
CyberGuyPR: "Hmm... That is exactly what I did."
WGU: "Hmm.. I'm not sure why they didn't like it"

Well, then who the hell knows what the expectation is?

My wife was thinking about doing her Nursing Management Masters at WGU. I told her not to do it because she would either end up killing herself or killing me. She recently ended up choosing a somewhat expensive and known college. We were going through her courses and rubric yesterday and I was amazed at how everything is laid out and specified upfront. Each class has a detailed section that present expectations for each task. This is by no means a self-paced program like WGU but given the level of thought put into it they could run it that way of they wanted.

In my opinion WGU needs to either get real SMEs who can critically evaluate tasks and provide useful insight, better mentors, or do a better job of communicating expectation of tasks. The disconnect between mentors and evaluators is just too wide.

cshkuru

Here is the letter that the Dept. of Education issued last year regarding Competency Based Education programs. https://www.insidehighered.com/sites/default/server_files/files/ED%20letter%20to%20accreditors(1).pdf

It appears to me WGU meets the requirements.

Here is the common framework from the accrediting agencies - https://www.insidehighered.com/sites/default/server_files/files/C-RAC%20CBE%20Statement%20Press%20Release%206_2.pdf

Again it appears to me that WGU meets the requirements.

The important thing to remember is that the Department of Education does not accredit colleges or universities. That is up to the regional accrediting body. As far as I know WGU has no issues with accreditation at this point. If this becomes too much of an issue WGU could probably resolve it by requiring a phone call with the course mentor before each assessment.

whiteskies

Since 80% of the members here attend, going to attend, promote, and/or gradated with a degree from WGU I thought this was funny . I am in Northern Virginia and have been for some time. I will say that I know 0 people who graduated from WGU and 1 guy who is attending. I only know that 1 guy because he came for a pre-CCRI inspection and I heard him talking on the phone and asked him. I am just speaking for myself. Not saying nobody in N. VA has a degree from them and I am not saying anything good or bad about the school

Danielm7

whiteskies wrote: »

Since 80% of the members here attend, going to attend, promote, and/or gradated with a degree from WGU I thought this was funny . I am in Northern Virginia and have been for some time. I will say that I know 0 people who graduated from WGU and 1 guy who is attending. I only know that 1 guy because he came for a pre-CCRI inspection and I heard him talking on the phone and asked him. I am just speaking for myself. Not saying nobody in N. VA has a degree from them and I am not saying anything good or bad about the school

I'm not really sure what's so funny, but maybe it's just too early. Locally, I don't any large groups from specific colleges. Maybe a few that went to X local state school because it's a big name and right nearby. Maybe a few others that went to another big local school. Outside of that everyone else I know went to other random schools or didn't go to college at all. I know one other person locally who went to WGU. That doesn't really translate to anything.

Iristheangel

whiteskies wrote: »

Since 80% of the members here attend, going to attend, promote, and/or gradated with a degree from WGU I thought this was funny . I am in Northern Virginia and have been for some time. I will say that I know 0 people who graduated from WGU and 1 guy who is attending. I only know that 1 guy because he came for a pre-CCRI inspection and I heard him talking on the phone and asked him. I am just speaking for myself. Not saying nobody in N. VA has a degree from them and I am not saying anything good or bad about the school

That is a very odd response. I'm not sure what your point is in responding is.


Personally, I'm not terribly worried about this. At the most, it might make WGU have to change a couple things about how it stays in contact with the students but it's nothing compared to the charges and the investigations that schools like ITT, Corinthian colleges, etc have been a part in.

markulous

cyberguypr wrote: »

I am an extremely independent person when it comes to learning. Heck, most of the knowledge acquired throughout my career came from self-study. Enter WGU. I have zero issue with having to research. My GIANT issue is the way my some tasks worked for me:

WGU: "sorry, you failed, please revise"
CyberGuyPR: "Sure, can you clarify what the expectation of the task is? I fell like I addressed all the points correctly and in detail".
WGU: "You should do XYZ. Make sure you justify it off (insert framework here)"
CyberGuyPR: "Hmm... That is exactly what I did."
WGU: "Hmm.. I'm not sure why they didn't like it"

Well, then who the hell knows what the expectation is?

My wife was thinking about doing her Nursing Management Masters at WGU. I told her not to do it because she would either end up killing herself or killing me. She recently ended up choosing a somewhat expensive and known college. We were going through her courses and rubric yesterday and I was amazed at how everything is laid out and specified upfront. Each class has a detailed section that present expectations for each task. This is by no means a self-paced program like WGU but given the level of thought put into it they could run it that way of they wanted.

In my opinion WGU needs to either get real SMEs who can critically evaluate tasks and provide useful insight, better mentors, or do a better job of communicating expectation of tasks. The disconnect between mentors and evaluators is just too wide.

Agreed with this. If I have a question about a graded paper, I either get the, "Hmmm I dunno why they didn't accept it!" or I get several different people piping in with completely different ideas on their interpretation and they're somehow super confident about it.

I'm curious though what the increase in tuition would be. Would 500 a semester be enough to bring that up a notch?

cyberguypr

There's a very simple reason why WGU it not well known in the Virginia/DC area: their degrees do not have the word "Cyber" anywhere. That I am actually proud of.

cshkuru

Just as a completely unscientific point. I did a linked in search for WGU grads in the Washington DC area and came up with over 15 pages. Not that that really proves anything but the school isn't completely unknown in DC.

jm0202

I have a friend taht works at wgu.. this is what i know:
OIG does not have enforcement authority—they only make recommendations to the Secretary of Education, who may or may not agree with the OIG opinions.

WGU has been carefully reviewed for many years by the Department of Education and many accrediting organizations, all of which have approved WGU’s instructional model, faculty, curriculum, and financial aid processes. In addition, WGU enjoys strong support from the Obama administration, the Department of Education, and Congress[...]

so even if the OIG make a negative recommendation the department of education may disregard those....

colemic

cshkuru wrote: »

Here is the letter that the Dept. of Education issued last year regarding Competency Based Education programs. https://www.insidehighered.com/sites/default/server_files/files/ED%20letter%20to%20accreditors(1).pdf

It appears to me WGU meets the requirements.

Here is the common framework from the accrediting agencies - https://www.insidehighered.com/sites/default/server_files/files/C-RAC%20CBE%20Statement%20Press%20Release%206_2.pdf

Again it appears to me that WGU meets the requirements.

The important thing to remember is that the Department of Education does not accredit colleges or universities. That is up to the regional accrediting body. As far as I know WGU has no issues with accreditation at this point. If this becomes too much of an issue WGU could probably resolve it by requiring a phone call with the course mentor before each assessment.

On page 3 of the document in the link: 'It is incumbent on the institution to demonstrate that students are not left to 'educate themselves,' a chief characteristic of correspondence programs.'

My guess is that sentence sums up their concerns about WGU in a nutshell.