Does Master's degree + limited experience = unemployable?

Christian.

dudnwoko wrote: »

I thought it was clear from my initial post that I'm not expecting or trying to walk into a CIO/CTO role with no experience, but I guess not. Thanks to those who offered useful feedback.

The military has an unfortunate number of people who were treated like garbage when they were junior officers/lower enlisted. As they move up the ranks, rather than remembering what it felt like and breaking the cycle, most of them perpetuate it. I thought IT was a little more meritocratic than that, but it seems there's more of that mentality than I expected. "I spent seven years suffering at the helpdesk before I got my break, so I'm going to make sure you suffer too."

But I guess that's why I posted, to see what kind of opposition I'd be up against.

I think you are looking at it wrong. IT is more meritocratic than you think, and no one is making anyone suffer. In fact a majority of the more senior people working in IT don't mistreat the ones that are just starting, they usually help them if they have a good attitude. This is a community filled with experienced people that offer advice and help others while gaining nothing in return. There are people like you describe everywhere, but I don't feel is the norm in IT. The problem with your meritocratic statement lies that you hold formal education higher than experience, and in the real world, that's not how it works. You were in the military, so think about this, would you take someone to go on a mission with you that has been on the field for 5 years and did several tours, or would you take someone that has been 5 years learning theory and never handled a real gun or faced combat?

An employer is going to select -for the position you want- people that has experience working at a similar level in other companies. If they can't find it for what they are offering, they may lower their standards for someone with a little less experience. But you are not bringing even that to the table, so you will have to point to positions that are level-entry and focus more on those candidates that have some experience, or show some promise in that area to developed (which a master and a ccnp could prove). That position doesn't mean helpdesk, but a SOC, or network admin junior or similar are good positions to start with your career. You asked "can I find a network engineer job at that level" referring to the ccnp, and the answer is a blatant no.

TheFORCE

There are plenty of IT positions that are not Helpdesk related. Business analysts are also in demand maybe you should look into that first to get your foot in the door.

The question i had though was, if you spend some years in IT already, why didn't you pursuit your chances and opportunities earlier? People get stuck in jobs all the time, and some times they use other jobs and role as spring board to other jobs that they want.

We all have made mistakes and probably have some regrets on the direction we took to get to where we are, the difference with you and the people in this forum though is that you complain about how you think the IT situation is unfair for the choices and decisions you made.

Stop complaining, pay the dues, get education, get experience and move on. The negative attitude will only hurt you. If there was one thing I've learned about IT is that the more you learn the more humble you have to become. Even then, there will be always someone knowing more than you.

The moment you start complaining and becoming frustrated, it's the moment you lose focus.

Danielm7

Fadakartel wrote: »

I`ve seen a CCNP with experience get picked over a guy with a CCIE and a MSC and no experience. I would be pissed if i got a ccie and a msc and lost to a guy with just with just a CCNP.

I don't know anyone who runs large enterprise networks who would put a CCIE with NO experience in charge of their network.

E Double U

Fadakartel wrote: »

I`ve seen a CCNP with experience get picked over a guy with a CCIE and a MSC and no experience. I would be pissed if i got a ccie and a msc and lost to a guy with just with just a CCNP.

Why pay more money for a CCIE with no experience when the CCNP guy can open a Cisco TAC case just as fast as the next guy.

JockVSJock

dudnwoko wrote: »

I'm sure someone is going to say to start in the helpdesk, but I have zero interest in working another crap helpdesk-type position. That's what drove me away from IT to begin with. I spent half my time in the military working night shifts, so I'm over that too. I have a family and I like sunlight (i.e. not interested in low level NOC positions). It's pretty hard to justify taking a $30k IT job in 2+ years when I can easily get a finance job that pays twice that by the end of the year. Frankly, I can drop out today and make more than 30k fixing and selling cars out of the garage.

Alot of folks have given solid advise, however let me give you my take.

As someone with a Masters in Mngt of Information Systems, your college degrees mean very little and will open few doors, especially is you don't have the experience or don't know the right people. There is nothing special about you little snow flake and the public schools in this country are a sham.

I'm sure the school will promise you that getting your Masters will change your life and career. I'm here to tell you, it won't. The school is a business and they have to tell lies to get people to commit so they can pay the bills and their employees.

I can't blame you for not working the help desk: dead end jobs with no real skill set, no training and people above you ******** on you because they can or taking their frustration out on you because they can. And in my experience if you work hard, your kept from promotion to make up for the other employees who are slacking.

My advise would be to start working on certs and building experience. Have you thought about doing temp work like kforce? Im sure there are a few others where you can temp and build up experience. Keep building experience and getting certs till you can land a non-help desk job, yet its technical.

If I had to do it over, I would have done this and not worked on getting my Masters until once I had built up more experience and knowledge.

JockVSJock

the_Grinch wrote: »

On another note, since you have finance experience, auditing or business analyst might be up your ally as well. Typically, both of those positions start off higher and don't deal with help desk functions.

While this is true that the business analysis doesn't deal with help desk, however the three that I have been in, the work has typically been repetitive tasks such as cleaning data in the database, writing business processes or updating them. Not technical work at all.

In all three of my roles, I tried to automate various processes using scripts such as SQL and was told that was not the reason I was hired for.

Because of that, I've never worked in that role again.

Fadakartel

Danielm7 wrote: »

I don't know anyone who runs large enterprise networks who would put a CCIE with NO experience in charge of their network.

I agree also this was for a ISP/MSP network with close to 1M customers.

kiki162

I think what some ppl on this post are saying to you is from your original post, and that you wanted to get your CCNP and Masters thinking you could get a job with that. Here's the reality, everyone on here has started at the bottom, and you will have to as well. You probably won't get $30K, but if you get a job, work hard, and show continued growth (Certs, degree, etc) that will help you in the long run.

I did take a look at the curriculum for that Masters degree you were looking into, I think it's good, but maybe pursue that at a later date. Right now, your focus should be on getting your CCNA. I would highly recommend for you to get additional certs outside of networking. Maybe look into a few Microsoft or CompTIA certifications. You can also look at network security type of certs, as those are just as valuable. The broader range of experience you have, the more attractable you will be to a perspective employer. Once you DO get that entry level IT job, THEN you want to finish up your CCNP. There's no reason for you to complete it before you try and get yourself that first job, because that won't help you in the long run.

I totally understand about the whole military thing, and yes many do not get setup well after they separate or retire. I have family members in your position now, and they feel under pressure about bringing in a "certain amount" to maintain the current lifestyle.

I recently went to a recruiting event for my employer to talk to college kids. They asked a lot of questions about "What can I do to get a internship...or a job?" I talked to a college senior that said he wanted to do something with networking, but wasn't really sure as to where he wanted to go in the future. He said that he wanted an entry level job to get as much experience as possible. I told him what I'm telling you now. Do the self-study route, tell a perspective employer about your "home lab", or projects that you are doing in school.

Another option that you can use with the GI Bill is bootcamps. Now a lot of ppl here would frown upon that, as most are easy to do on your own once you get a few under your belt. Some of the bootcamps are good if you are pressed for time, or have time to go for a week or two. I would probably use that option for "other" certifications outside of networking. Having a CCNA and MCSE (or close to it) isn't that bad, but keep in mind it's NOT going to get you a comfy salary right off the bat. If you get $45-$60K consider yourself lucky.

For the time being, focus on getting yourself the CCNA, and maybe a few certifications. Be willing to start off at the bottom, and work your way up. It will take some time!

james43026

I agree with a few things that most people are saying. Experience will always trump any degree or work experience, and in the IT industry this is especially true. People care about your work experience because it provides a glimpse into things that you may have dealt with, that almost no certification, or degree will allow you to see. With that being said, in the work of networking, I would argue that a CCIE would show any employer that you know what you are doing without experience on the resume. Gaining a CCIE without real world experience becomes a big challenge though.

Unfortunately in IT most people have to start at the bottom and work their way up, often times bouncing from company to company for those opportunities. This also means making mediocre money in some cases, you can find a great helpdesk job that could pay between $15-$25 an hour depending on your local market. And it could be higher in places with a high cost of living.

sj4088

Unemployable? Of course not. Assuming all other things are equal EVERYBODY would take the candidate with the degree vs the one without a degree. Having said that no one is going to take a guy with a master degree and NO "real world" experience vs a network engineer with 10 years experience. Notice you can't even call the guy with a masters degree a network engineer because he has never been one.

The guy with the masters is hoping his degree can persuade employers/hiring managers he has the ability to do what the network engineer with 10 years experience has already been doing for the last 10 years.

I would not go for a Masters degree until I had some industry experience under my belt. But that's just me.

dudnwoko

Here I am, two years later. I just wanted to come back and thank the "go work at the helpdesk" folks for their motivating words. In the past two years I've finished my bachelor's degree and earned CCNA, Sec+, RHCE, and am part way to RHCA. Most recently, I crushed the CISSP exam. I'm also 2/3 of the way through my master's.

I admit it. You were right. I'll never get hired as a network engineer. I'll just have to settle for my current role in cybersecurity.

Mike7

Well done! Very inspiring.

UnixGuy

dudnwoko: Well done mate!!!

Can you share how the past two years went for you with more details? Sounds like an awesome success story that will inspire a lot of people