Fresh grad, 0 experience makes 3k more than me. (2 years experience no degree)

networker050184

dave330i wrote: »

Funny how that article states the same things that those of us who's been around the block a few have been preaching on this forum.

It's almost like you should take advice from the people who have been there done that!

TechGuru80

TomkoTech wrote: »

Um.... I know quite a few people make 6 figures with no college degree... You can most certainly "catch up" based on experience.

False...if you compare two equal candidates but one has a degree and one not, the one with the degree WILL ALWAYS make more. Remember I'm not talking about one having this or that over the other. That doesn't mean you couldn't get into a position and make decent money eventually, but we are also talking about over the next 10, 20, 30 years...the requirement for a degree is way different than what many high level employees in place today faced.

TomkoTech

False? lol Okay. Apparently it is not possible to make the same or more than someone who has a degree. I'll let Bill Gates know you said so.

NetworkNewb

I think after so many years, and if your an expert in a field, a Bachelor's degree kind of becomes a mood point and people could careless. Some companies do require them though I guess.

reload@

techguru80 wrote: »

false...if you compare two equal candidates but one has a degree and one not, the one with better negotiating skills will always make more.

ftfy...

pinkydapimp

clouder wrote: »

Around here, you're worth what you can negotiate. I've seen 2 people doing the same exact job have 20k+ difference in salaries plenty of times. I wouldn't feel bad about 3k.

This. The reality is most people don't negotiate well. And that can be the difference in what you make and what someone else makes.

dave330i

reload@ wrote: »

ftfy...

Nice wishful thinking there.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77

Study: Income Gap Between Young College and High School Grads Widens | US News

aderon

Does anyone here have any advice on negotiating a better salary? Like a free course that could be taken? I've got the basics:

1) Show interest in the position and sincere interest in moving forward and eventually accepting
2) Express ability to make impact, how you will set yourself apart.
3) Provide supporting evidence and research related to why you are worth more than the offered salary and set a new price point for your desired salary.
4) Reassure that your performance will more than make up for the adjustment and express enthusiasm for starting.

But, that doesn't quite do it for me. I did all this for a job that originally offered 42k and was only reoffered 43k when I asked for 46.5k (which was already a compromise down from the 50k average in the area which I explained in the negotiation email). Is my company just cheap or were there other things I could've done? Just curious, since everyone in this thread is suggesting improving negotiating skills.

aderon

dave330i wrote: »

Nice wishful thinking there.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77

Study: Income Gap Between Young College and High School Grads Widens | US News

Not saying I don't agree with your original point, but this only compares people who graduated college vs people who only graduated high school and doesn't factor in the field they're working in.

Iristheangel

@Aderon -

I would say have a number in mind and, while being realistic, make sure it's one that's worth it and not one that you're "settling" at. I would also say that if you don't get what you want, you have to be willing to walk away. Set boundaries and walk away than to take a low offer and be stuck for 1-2 years at it

wd40

TomkoTech wrote: »

False? lol Okay. Apparently it is not possible to make the same or more than someone who has a degree. I'll let Bill Gates know you said so.

You and 99.999999% of people are not Bill Gates.

I do not have a degree and make a little bit more than a co-worker that has a degree, still I know that I need to get a degree to progress an hence I am getting one.

aderon

Iristheangel wrote: »

@Aderon -

I would say have a number in mind and, while being realistic, make sure it's one that's worth it and not one that you're "settling" at. I would also say that if you don't get what you want, you have to be willing to walk away. Set boundaries and walk away than to take a low offer and be stuck for 1-2 years at it

I think that's my problem. There's a difference between what I feel I'm worth and what I'm willing to accept. Generally I will accept lower pay if I think the experience is good, regardless of whether I feel I'm worth more. I'm going to be starting a job search again in a few months and will try sticking to my guns more.

bluejellorabbit

Negotiating is mostly about knowing the value of your skill set and understanding what makes other people feel good. You want to come across as confident but not arrogant. Confidence simply conveys that you believe what you're saying.

For instance, you could say, "I've had X years working with token ring, and more important than that, I love token ring. I have a passion for token ring, sir (or ma'am). If you go through a thousand candidates, you won't find one with the love for token ring that I have, and hence if I don't know something already, which is unlikely, you better believe I'll learn it. I believe that makes me worth 150k to your organization. You'll get your money's worth for the token ring knowledge I'm bringing to the table."

If you explain to a potential employer, in a confident way, why you're worth what your asking, they'll be much more likely to up their offer. It could be everything you need to say is already on your resume and in your cover letter, but the potential employer just needs to hear you say it and know you really believe in your skills and abilities.

What you don't want to do is act cocky while negotiating, i.e. "You're going to pay me $150k, or I walk. No one else can do what I do." There's always someone else who can do what you do. And most people don't like feeling like you're trying to dominate them. You don't want to over-inflate your own sense of importance. You may be great at what you do, you may believe you're worth a lot, but if that's the case, it should be pretty easy to explain to a potential employer how they're going to get their money's worth. That's really all they want--to believe they're making a good financial decision, so help them believe it.

And as Iristheangel said, don't be afraid to walk. If you're in a bad financial position, out of a job, or otherwise in a place where you are afraid to walk, then simply don't try overplaying your hand. Bluffing doesn't work well when you're scared of a bad outcome. You need to be OK both with taking the job and not taking the job. That way you can always be in control of your emotions, and you can remain polite and confident, even if you have to say, "I'm sorry we couldn't come to mutually agreeable terms on this."

SaSkiller

Why worry about it? Take care of you. I don't care what someone else is making, I made my salary negotiation based on my needs. If I got shafted, its my fault, not the company.

TomkoTech

wd40 wrote: »

You and 99.999999% of people are not Bill Gates.

I do not have a degree and make a little bit more than a co-worker that has a degree, still I know that I need to get a degree to progress an hence I am getting one.

Yes the Bill Gates and Zuckerbergs of the world are extreme examples. However I could have just as easily said Bill Jones working for XYZ Industrial as a sales rep. You do not NEED a college degree to make really good money. It just makes it a lot easier to get to faster.

thomas_

aderon wrote: »

Does anyone here have any advice on negotiating a better salary? Like a free course that could be taken?

Is my company just cheap or were there other things I could've done? Just curious, since everyone in this thread is suggesting improving negotiating skills.

I took a negotiation class in college and we read the book "Getting to Yes". Reading that book might give you a little perspective on negotiations. It's hard to say if there's anything you could have done.

They very well could have a hard limit on what they are willing to spend on a candidate and might be willing to pass on an exceptional candidate that's asking more than they're willing to pay and fill the position with a lower quality candidate who is willing to take what they are offering.

aderon

thomas_ wrote: »

I took a negotiation class in college and we read the book "Getting to Yes". Reading that book might give you a little perspective on negotiations.

I don't know why I didn't think of buying a book for this... haha. Here I am, I've got a book for every tech subject under the sun, but for some reason buying a book for negotiating didn't pass my mind. -_-

Just ordered 3 books off amazon. I'll just treat this like another cert: read, take notes, study, lab (practice interviews/negotiations lol) and see where it takes me.

YesOffense

NetworkNewb wrote: »

Wait a minute a college grad making more than a non college grad? When did the news crew show up to cover this story?

Oh snap, sarcasm! Watch out before some socially inept poster who can't discern that comes around and gives you a negative rep.

But that's an unfortunate thing with this business op, it's time to get out there and negotiate your worth. It's not as bad as being an actual lead who's been there for years being paid less than the 1st day tier 1 (who you'll train) because he has the degree.

DatabaseHead

Rule number 1 don't compare yourself to another person.

wd40

The following just appeared in my Linkedin feed.

Urgent Hiring for Risk Manager - Qatar Requirments:
1- Graduate from an accredited university in a relevant field.
2- Minimum 10 years’ experience in high profile civil projects with emphasis on managing project risks.
3- Must hold a degree from a Western Institution. [This is strange usually they don't announce this]
4- At least 1 year in the position as Risk Manager.
5- Experience in the Gulf is an advantage.
Please send the CV on xxxyyyzzz only candidate with above requirements will be shortlisted.

The next one was:
Communications Manager vacancy at PepsiCo
-Bachelor's degree from a reputable university
-Ability to manage blah blah blah



***************
So yes, you can become a mega multi billionaire without a degree, but if you are an average person and just want a decent job you will need a degree in a point in your career.

CCNTrainee

3K annual is only $1.50 more an hour, you won't seen much of a difference in check after taxes... maybe like a $20 difference. If it was 10K/$5 more an hour, I would see your point. If it really brothers you, I would negotiate for a raise, find a better paying job or finish a degree/get bigger certs.

Also surprised no mention that being at the right place at the right time plays a factor as well as knowing some people. There is a reason why job hunt seminars tell you to Network and build a social profile, reason I am making 80K now is because I had people throwing out my resume and informing about a hot demand that is ready to be striked. In the end it will be about your negotiating skills and how much "weight" you carry to justify a desired salary.

$bvb379

$bvb379 wrote: »

**Usually**

I am not agreeing with the OP and I have seen people on this forum with 7+ years experience, certs, and a degree making less than $70k. I guess that is an ambition or mind-set issue more than a skill set issue, though. Being in the right place at the right time and knowing someone always helps.

CCNTrainee


To add to this, when I met one of my mentors he said to me that after he got his first IT job he simply was told to apply for other jobs in other companies from colleagues working there. He never applied blindly, he always knew someone at the company he was making a jump to, accompanied by raises of course.

reload@

dave330i wrote: »

Nice wishful thinking there.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77

Study: Income Gap Between Young College and High School Grads Widens | US News

Maybe if all I had was a high school diploma and I wanted to be a Lawyer, Doctor, Civil Engineer, Architect, etc., then it would be wishful thinking. But IT is quite different from most fields. In IT you can get a high paying job with just experience and certs. You can't even get a job in most other fields without a degree.

I know several people personally who are making a lot of money in IT without a degree. I've also seen threads here of people who have been successful without one. I myself have been able to triple my salary from what I was making in the NOC three years ago. I don't even job hop a lot or "network", but I also don't accept low ball offers, stay at a job with no growth, or accept 1-2% annual raises.

wd40

reload@ - yes you can make lots of money without a degree, but you are excluding yourself from a very high percentage of jobs in companies that do require a degree.

dave330i

reload@ wrote: »

Maybe if all I had was a high school diploma and I wanted to be a Lawyer, Doctor, Civil Engineer, Architect, etc., then it would be wishful thinking. But IT is quite different from most fields. In IT you can get a high paying job with just experience and certs. You can't even get a job in most other fields without a degree.

I know several people personally who are making a lot of money in IT without a degree. I've also seen threads here of people who have been successful without one. I myself have been able to triple my salary from what I was making in the NOC three years ago. I don't even job hop a lot or "network", but I also don't accept low ball offers, stay at a job with no growth, or accept 1-2% annual raises.

No. The entry requirements for IT is lower than the other high paying field, but to be really successful you need an advanced degree. It's almost a must have. As you move up in the field you'll notice that many of your peers and above having advanced degrees.

FYI, it took me 18 months to nearly triple my salary into 6 figures.

doctorlexus

dave330i wrote: »

No. The entry requirements for IT is lower than the other high paying field, but to be really successful you need an advanced degree. It's almost a must have. As you move up in the field you'll notice that many of your peers and above having advanced degrees.

I agree with reload@, a good cert is much more valuable. Some of the higher level certs really do require expert level knowledge, and are quite difficult to attain. Compare that to that fact that almost any moron willing to take out a loan can get a masters degree.

reload@

dave330i wrote: »

No. The entry requirements for IT is lower than the other high paying field, but to be really successful you need an advanced degree. It's almost a must have. As you move up in the field you'll notice that many of your peers and above having advanced degrees.

FYI, it took me 18 months to nearly triple my salary into 6 figures.

Actually as I move up in the field, I find that degrees are less valued if you are in a technical role. Experience and certs trump degrees especially in senior technical roles. At my last job, the most senior guy in our team is a double IE without a degree. I'd get laugh at if I told him he should go get a degree so that he can be successful. In fact, the Sr. Engineers in our team without degrees outnumbered those with degrees.

I don't have an advanced degree but I make a good bit over 100k with full benefits. I would consider that success since I haven't been in IT that long. Also I was born in a nipa hut in a rice paddy in a third world country, so I feel pretty successful. I'm actually going back to college to finish my degree, but I'm doing it for personal reasons and I would like to teach when I retire.

I understand that some jobs have degrees as a hard requirement, and I'm not arguing against getting one. It will open more doors for you especially if you're looking at a managerial role later on. But to say it's a requirement to be successful? I don't think so. At least not in IT and not in the US. YMMV in other countries.

Betrayal

You should not compare yourself to others like that, it will only lower your happiness.

Instead think about what you can do to better yourself, getting educated is a good start.

dave330i

@reload@

Looks like you and I are using different metric to measure success.

powerfool

I find it best to use "envy" as motivation rather than an excuse for being unhappy. You have a job... you are enrolled... work on that degree.

My key piece of advice is to avoid that debt. Does the employer offer tuition reimbursement? Take advantage of it and keep a moderate pace... usually they limit you to about 6 credit hours per semester... I was impatient because I started school at a point where I desperately felt I should have already been done... so I was taking 12-16 credit hours per semester in the evenings... not only was it brutal from a work load and scheduling perspective, but since my employer wouldn't pay 100%, I took on loans to cover the difference (at a private school). Now, I did get some scholarships, but it all added up quickly. You don't have to go down that road. Do 6 credit hours per semester (or something reasonably similar), continue during your summers, and look for opportunities to lower the courses you need (like testing out). My biggest problem was not taking advantage of opportunities to test out. I tested out of only one course (a two credit hour course, but the test game me three credit hours) and used my high school foreign language to cover that requirement. I went out of my way to schedule a few courses that I could have easily tested out of because I thought that they would be enjoyable... yeah, not so much.