Why does it seem like a lot of IT professionals don't have a CS degree

DatabaseHead

Is it due to the difficulty of the degree? My gut tells me most IT professional can't handle the rigors of a CS degree. But I'm not exactly sure......

A lot of people are career changers so that makes sense, but another subset of IT professionals are young and don't learn the core principals that the CS degree offers.

A lot of the core hard skills are being ignored in regards to learning a cert product, not how the product actually works.

Basic stuff like principals of programming languages, data structures, database and info system, Logic, modeling, network systems, operating systems.

It would seem to me if you are young and want to become a IT professional you could go for this core degree. Even at a state university, not Stanford or MIT. I realize those are very difficult programs to get into.

the_Grinch

I'd say it's largely due to the theoretical nature of Computer Science. IT/IS/MIS typically involve hands on work, but I can also agree you don't require the advance math courses that CS usually calls for. I tend to think colleges should focus on Applied Computer Science which typically has relaxed math requirements and courses that revolve around practical programming.

Iristheangel

To be honest, a lot of other degrees provide a lot of overlapping content without diving as deeply into math and you can be just as successful with that other degree vs a CS degree. In my case, I'm not strong in advanced math but if you look at degree program I chose, it's designed to teach you many of the topics you mentioned:

http://www.wgu.edu/wgu/prog_guide/BS_IT_SECU.pdf

- IT Fundamentals
- Operating Systems
- Software
- Networks
- Database
- Web Systems
- Security
- Scripting and programming

Depending on what part of the IT field you're looking to get into, the above degree would serve as a great foundation for most of the points you named and then you can jump into certifications, experience, etc to build upon those foundations. It's not a dig at the CS degree but I would say that it's not always needed.

NetworkNewb

I would guess it is because the amount of programming/math in a CS degree is a lot more than what is needed in a lot IT jobs so it would be a waste of time for a lot of people. There are more specific degrees in IT people can go for.

CS degrees are aren't bad option for anyone though.

DatabaseHead

Never looked at the bachelors at WGU, but I agree that looks like a pretty comprehensive list of courses. Not shabby at all....

Legacy User

Most people I know personally in IT (myself included) that have a Bachelors all tried the CS route but every single one of them changed their majors to something else because they did not care for programming and/or the level of math required to acquire those degrees.

joelsfood

Why didn't I get a CS degree? Because I have no interest in programming, simple as that.

So instead, I found a Systems Network Management degree (networking, server administration, business, account, etc) and then was able to pick and choose the elctives I wanted and that I felt would be most useful. IN my case, that was heavy on logic, philosophy of mind, etc.

CS degree programs are generally only targeted at a very specific career path in IT, programming, big data, maybe analytics, and not particularly relevant to many IT professions.

GreaterNinja

Most IT jobs are do not involve development, devops, or coding. Therefore, a C.S. degree is not necessary. Forgive the writing something is up with the forum.

Computer Science is both applied and abstract learning. Typically those that go down this path move on to design, development, and programming. Why? In general it pays more than most IT roles, unless you are doing networking, system engineer, virtualization, or security.

To be an IT professional in general requires learning things such as customer support, hardware, software applications, operating systems, networking, desktop or server administration, virtualization, security. So it kind of requires specialty learning that can be found in books, online, school, or on the job. It may even require scripting or coding on the very high end, but it typically is only a few lines of code at times.

Now the ultimate IT guy would know networking, wireless networking, appliances, OS, desktop, server, customer support, virtualization, security, storage, linux, windows, macosx, mobile device management, and programming very well for an enterprise. Finding someone who is the MacGuyver of IT is very very rare.

danny069

CS, Computer Science or Cyber Security? Computer Science is so broad, coursework is filled with math and programming, better to get a specialized degree where you are concentrating in something that interests you and hopefully it is high in demand.

cyberguypr

To echo what others have said, I despise programming and math, so no CS for me. My Networking and Telecom BS covered topics similar to what Iris listed and it laid a foundation that was perfectly in line with my interests. I think it's served me well over the years.

Techytach

I was actually thinking about this the other day. I'm pretty sure most people in IT don't have an CS degree and a lot of people that get a CS degree don't actually go into IT.

I think this is mostly because the degree programs are so far from reality they do a terrible job at actually preparing people with real skill sets for real jobs. Note this is mostly in reference to brick and mortar state colleges.

You could probably learn faster on your own for free. Or even better, get a more useful degree depending where you want to end up (like an engineering aerospace degree and take C and C++.)

The other reason is people who get a CS degree get it for the wrong reasons. Find out they don't like programming and end up elsewhere.

Really, when it comes down to it, I can't think of what a CS degree really gives you over other degrees that often specialize further. If you want to learn programming there are many free tools available and in the end you just need to code code code a ton.

**this is just my biased opinion and shouldn't be taken seriously**

Legacy User

If someone is looking to get into programming then a CS degree would be perfect. Alot of the core knowledge topics you mentioned are taught in other tracks as well I.T., CIS, etc. I say to whoever to get a Degree in something they are interested in or will help you get where you want to go.

Lexluethar

I think it depends on the program too - when i was in school there were two main IT programs, CIS which was server, networking and programing. Then there was CS which was more scientific method - required way more math (4 more math classes beyond other business degrees) and focused heavily on the science piece of the industry. Again this depends on the school and program you are in.

To say they can't cut it is a bit obtuse - I would say it's about what the person wants to do 'when they grow up' - realize this probably changes two or three times during a college stint.

Also realize that while understanding the principles of data structure, programming logic and the like isn't for everyone. Some people want to just fire up VB and tab through available commands. Powershell is becoming this way as well. Are the basics good to know? Absolutely but it's not for everyone.

koz24

Hmm, well I was a CS Major before I switched. It didn't have much to do with the "difficulty" as much as much as it not being for me. For the record, I love Math and Science, and I was a Math major before I switched to Information Systems. But, programming--coding--is just not for me. I can do it sure, but I am miserable when I do it. I gravitate to Networking because I love ALL the theory, ALL the CLI, ALL the labbing, and it is not a straight up drag like programming was for me. In the end, you have to forget about all the BS and just focus on what makes you happy. We spend more time with the people we work with than anyone else in our lives, never forget that.

TechGromit

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Is it due to the difficulty of the degree? My gut tells me most IT professional can't handle the rigors of a CS degree. But I'm not exactly sure......

While a college degree gives you a well rounded education, it doesn't get into technical training. Unless you planning on getting into Information Technology upper management, I don't think a college degree is really necessary. Statistically people who have college degrees do earn more than those without one, but unless they are upper management, I think the wage gap is much smaller in the IT field. Also college degrees are not the golden ticket they once were to higher paying positions (regardless of what the degree is in), there are more college graduates today with high student loans and little to no better career prospects then those without a degree than any time in the past.

JoJoCal19

I actually wanted a CS degree. Then I looked at the ridiculous math you have to learn and decided it wasn't worth it at this stage in life. My alma mater offers a great BSCS fully online and for like $12k. Then I looked at the pre-reqs and said eff that.

NavyMooseCCNA

When I was in college, all that existed was a Computer Science major. I had no desire to do programming and there was no way I could have met the math requirement. Like a lot of people who came into IT in the late 1990s / early 2000s, I was a career changer. My undergraduate is in accounting, which I hated and never used.

evarney

A lot of people were told they would get rich if they got their GED and got Cisco certified.

Based on what I saw in College; the smart people get degrees in CS. Calculus, Advanced C++ and Physics tends to rule out the first group I mentioned.

I have a Bachelors degree in information technology because I couldn't get the classes at a reasonable time of day after work.

I got my associates degree because I needed to earn a living; so money first because I grew up white trash and it's a miracle I have anything. My associates is in networking and that was really the biggest ROI.

As far as the bachelor's, it cost my employer as much as a CS degree from the same UNI. Biggest waste of my time because my associates in network administration and support is what got me the job, every job up until my last two and I've held the title of Network Admin for all of career.

STEM degrees are important because they give a theoretical foundation that makes it easier for you to solve problems. I envy the kids that had mom and dad or the bank pay for them to study and eat pizza while I 9-5'ed it and then went to night school. But I have no loans and my dad didn't have to work 80 hrs a week to put me through university.

Academia is a religion that worships itself; and this certification racket is like it's retarded cousin...Maybe I will just teach myself to code...or make my employer pay for another degree; this time in math or physics or something. That way I can earn more money and be able to afford surgery to fix my middle fingers....

BradleyHU

For me, it was the math...no way did i want to take all that math. Calculus 1 & 2, and Stats were more than enough for me. Also, all the sciences too, i'm good. I actually didn't mind the programming classes...hell my CIS degree was the same as a CS degree except we took biz classes instead of all the math & science...

DatabaseHead

It sounds like majority of the reason is the amount of math, either for the fact the individual will not be able to do it or it will be painful in doing so or......... The return isn't worth it and they would rather focus on other classes. Both are legitimate to be honest. Thanks for the feedback......

ccie14023

joelsfood wrote: »

Why didn't I get a CS degree? Because I have no interest in programming, simple as that.

Yup. I had interest in it but lost it. Now I get to do programmability on network devices. Just can't escape it I guess.

dhay13

I just wasn't interested in programming. Some people seem to 'get it' when it comes to programming. I was excellent at math but just couldn't get the hang of programming. Not complaining because my B.S. in IT has done me well.

TechGuru80

In the end of the day, being able to use the technologies and troubleshoot is what keeps an organization running. Additionally CS degrees are usually geared towards development but just like there are many positions on a sports team, there are many positions within IT.

You don't have to be a CS master to be good in IT and frankly a lot is personal preference...but if you want to develop technology you better know some CS.

LeBroke

Out of curiosity, why do people think Computer Science has a lot of math?

I looked up my university's Comp Sci requirements, for example, and it's only a single math course more than my Biochem degree (linear algebra), which is just a more math-heavy version of the analytical chemistry course we had to take.

I guess it's more math compared to something like an IT degree (all practical skills) or humanities (writing/critical thinking), but certainly it's on par with any science major, and less than engineering and many finance/accounting degrees.

TechGromit

LeBroke wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why do people think Computer Science has a lot of math?

I looked up my university's Comp Sci requirements, for example, and it's only a single math course more than my Biochem degree (linear algebra), which is just a more math-heavy version of the analytical chemistry course we had to take.

BAH! Why should I learn how to add or subtract, that's what computers are for, to think for us.

The funny thing is I passed Calculus in College, but never finished my degree.

NetworkNewb

LeBroke wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why do people think Computer Science has a lot of math?

Most college's I've ever seen require Calculus with the CS major. I think people hear "Calculus" and think it is harder than it actually is though... But thats another discussion

LeBroke

NetworkNewb wrote: »

Most college's I've ever seen require Calculus with the CS major. I think people hear "Calculus" and think it is harder than it actually is though... But thats another discussion

All it really requires is 1st and 2nd semester calculus (which you can take in high school in most places, and isn't really that difficult), a single 2nd year linear algebra course (admittedly, this is a pain in the ass from what I've seen, but because it's a pain in the ass with 5-unknown equations, not because it's difficult), and a stats course (easy and most people should take one anyway).

Ironically, many social sciences require the same, if not more, math, and they're typically stereotyped as for "those dumb people over there" (not my opinion, just general stereotyping in the nerd community).

9bits

As most people have stated, the knowledge from a CS degree just isn't necessary in most of IT. It can give you an edge on deeper understanding of certain niche things, but it's probably not worth the time investment for most IT professionals.

On the other hand, I'm in IT security, and for the first time in my life I've started to wish I had a CS background. It's not necessary for most tasks in security, but if you wanted to be the type of person who finds zero day exploits or reverse engineers complex things, then I imagine you'd start to find it extremely valuable. This is one thing I've noticed in common with many of the well-known people in security research. The people who present new findings at Defcon or who are working on cutting edge exploits no one else has found--it's almost universal among that small group that they have strong CS backgrounds. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

Iristheangel

So the math can be a bit different it may vary by degree/school. For WGU, the math requirements were:
- Intermediate Algebra
- College Algebra
- Introduction to Probability and Statistics

Vs Computer Science degree (per: http://www.computersciencedegreehub.com/faq/computer-science-degree-require-lot-math-courses/):
GE Requirements as a prerequite to the major:
- Calculus with Analytic Geometry I
- Calculus with Analytic Geometry II
- Matrices

Core Requirements:
- Statistical Analysis I
- Elementary Probability

Plus often 15 hours of electives which could include the following:
- Introduction to Analysis I
- Ordinary Differential Equations
- Fourier Series and Partial Differential Equations
- Introduction to Operations Research
- Linear Algebra and Discrete Models I
- Linear Algebra and Discrete Models II
- Basic Abstract Algebra


I never got past Algebra as a teenager in high school. In my 20s, I sat down with a community college adviser and told her how I wanted to get my CS degree. Since it was a community college, I wanted my AA degree and then to transfer to a university. When the adviser took a look at my high school transcripts and my assessment, she basically gave me a 4-year plan to get to a AA degree and most of that would be math. This process repeated itself though all the colleges I tried to get into and eventually dropped out of: Pasadena City College, Orange Coast College, Mt Sac College, etc. If you didn't kick butt at math as a teenager, that CS degree is going to take more than 4 years to get if you're having to catch up. That's why I kept giving up at college.

With WGU (or any IT degree probably at any college), I didn't have to spend 2 years catching up in math just so I could start my degree program for 4 more years. As a younger person, that just killed my motivation. If I had gone the brick and mortar route with a CS degree when I first started in IT (8 years ago), I would be finally finishing my MS degree now because it would have taken 8 years to get to the same place. Instead, I have an BS, MS, CCIE, great job, and about to start a family in my mid-30s. To me, that's a win.

That's not to diss the folks with a CS degree or going for one. There are many paths to success and you're going to have skills I don't have. I accept that.

TLeTourneau

I think it may be a bit uncharitable to say "most IT professional can't handle the rigors of a CS degree" as has been indicated by the other responses in this thread. I went with an IT degree because I am not a fan of programming and I am honest enough with myself to admit that I also would not have enjoyed some of the math courses but I believe I would have been successful with them had I decided to go that route. That being said I got my degree as a non-traditional student and while the degree has helped my career I do not think a CS degree would have helped more than the IT degree.

evarney

Most (or many) of us took the non-traditional route because with minimal coursework you can get into this field and it's good to start working as early as possible. The four year degree in four years is a novel concept these days.

TLeTourneau wrote: »

That being said I got my degree as a non-traditional student and while the degree has helped my career I do not think a CS degree would have helped more than the IT degree.