Why does it seem like a lot of IT professionals don't have a CS degree

No_Nerd

I couldn't knock out the advanced math, so I left EE for MIS

twodogs62

I think part of degree is showing initiative to complete the degree.
i did business CS degree. The difference with it and the other degree was accounting versus Calculus.
the programming classes were the same.
i did take a semester of Calculus and Another of business Calculus.
i loved the business calculus class. I had more trouble with scientific calculus, but process was same.
some places will not even talk to you if you don't have calculus or a degree.

evarney

Nothing sucks more than having that door slammed in your face; trust me I know. Advanced Mathematics like Calculus and a working understanding the underlying architecture of computing is the difference between my shitty paycheck and big money. Not a CCNP; because anyone can **** that anyway.

twodogs62 wrote: »

I think part of degree is showing initiative to complete the degree.
i did business CS degree. The difference with it and the other degree was accounting versus Calculus.
the programming classes were the same.
i did take a semester of Calculus and Another of business Calculus.
i loved the business calculus class. I had more trouble with scientific calculus, but process was same.
some places will not even talk to you if you don't have calculus or a degree.

DatabaseHead

I hope I didn't offend anyone but I was told by the academic advisor's that most people dropped out of the CS program because they struggled with the math. If anyone would know these types of nuggets of knowledge it would be the advisors, at least this is my assumption. I never received a CS degree either just for the record. I, like a lot of you switched careers and going back to school wasn't an option I was willing to follow through with. I have a bachelors and a masters, still paying on the masters.......... That's a different conversation

Iristheangel

evarney wrote: »

Nothing sucks more than having that door slammed in your face; trust me I know. Advanced Mathematics like Calculus and a working understanding the underlying architecture of computing is the difference between my shitty paycheck and big money. Not a CCNP; because anyone can **** that anyway.

And no one has ever cheated in college to pass a class that they otherwise would have failed? While **** exist, there are also online forums, groups, and paid services that solely exist to help someone get past a certain class at a certain institution or do their coursework for them. It's just spoken about a bit less because classes/coursework can vary from institution-to-institution so it's not as standardized on a grand level as ****. Certifications and degrees are great to have but you still need to validate the candidates knowledge. Just because they come with a piece of paper doesn't mean anything until you test those abilities.

mbarrett

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Is it due to the difficulty of the degree? My gut tells me most IT professional can't handle the rigors of a CS degree. But I'm not exactly sure......

A lot of people are career changers so that makes sense, but another subset of IT professionals are young and don't learn the core principals that the CS degree offers.

A lot of the core hard skills are being ignored in regards to learning a cert product, not how the product actually works.

Some of the best IT people I've worked with didn't have a CS degree. English, "soft" sciences like Biology, Art, you name it. They were all very good logical thinkers with strong ability to work with abstract topics, however. Is CS the only way to get these skills? No. But it does give good training in logical thinking & working in the abstract. So do things like Chemistry, Math and a bunch of other majors. Not to say a college degree is necessary - but it will give you the maturity and a basic knowledge of HOW to learn and function in the modern job world. It will also make you more marketable in the long run.
As far as math goes, the math in a CS degree (Calculus, discrete math) will give maturity in logical thinking and working with abstract ideas. Is this the only way to develop these skills? No, but it will help in the long run. Also, hiring managers might have this idea by looking at someone's background - if someone has a CS degree there should be the assumption of some basic exposure to this kind of work which might be a plus during the interview process.

Techytach

Iristheangel wrote: »

And no one has ever cheated in college to pass a class that they otherwise would have failed? While **** exist, there are also online forums, groups, and paid services that solely exist to help someone get past a certain class at a certain institution or do their coursework for them. It's just spoken about a bit less because classes/coursework can vary from institution-to-institution so it's not as standardized on a grand level as ****. Certifications and degrees are great to have but you still need to validate the candidates knowledge. Just because they come with a piece of paper doesn't mean anything until you test those abilities.

The other week while doing the daily job search, I came across a company looking for "research assistants" paid by project completed, doing "documentation" and "dissertation" work...uh turns out it was a company that basically sold PhD dissertations to grad students. Make no mistake, people have figured out how to **** at every level.

Kreken

DatabaseHead wrote: »

I hope I didn't offend anyone but I was told by the academic advisor's that most people dropped out of the CS program because they struggled with the math. If anyone would know these types of nuggets of knowledge it would be the advisors, at least this is my assumption. I never received a CS degree either just for the record. I, like a lot of you switched careers and going back to school wasn't an option I was willing to follow through with. I have a bachelors and a masters, still paying on the masters.......... That's a different conversation

It wasn't math. It was algorithms class that made me almost drop out of CS. Red-black binary trees come to mind. The subject was made harder by the professor who couldn't clearly convey his thoughts.

beads

Computer Science with a Math minor that by adding one class became a dual major down the line. My second major was Psychology with a minor in Military Science. I have seen most CS degrees skimp on the actual math over the past couple of decades to the point of being almost trivial in comparison to what I was forced to take. Just sayin'. Computer Science was spawned by the need to do maths faster and became a side project of math altogether. Data Processing, IS and now IT came along MUCH later and had a much softer skill set involving less rigor and less applied logic - being more art than traditional science.

Depends on the problem your trying to solve. Math, Computer Science and any Engineering programs are going to be more difficult than following the rules of Accounting or Business theory. Hence the old joke that business majors don't know what they want to do when they graduate. I mean no one I have ever spoken to says they want to sell insurance after graduation.

Maths are hard!

- b/eads

DatabaseHead

Business Major here!

You graduate from high school all your buddies are going to the same state school, your primary focus is booze and girls. The path of least resistance becomes a viable strategy. Skim through get your BSc management and move on. That's what I did.

LeBroke

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Business Major here!

You graduate from high school all your buddies are going to the same state school, your primary focus is booze and girls. The path of least resistance becomes a viable strategy. Skim through get your BSc management and move on. That's what I did.

I'm working my butt off for a career so I have more money to spend on booze and girls

Verities

In the beginning of the ARPANET and development of all the foundational RFCs that now serve as a blueprint for all technologies, you needed to be extremely knowledgeable with computers. You had to study all of the topics people have listed throughout this thread and you also had to be able to create the software you needed, when you needed it. The reason you see less CompSci degrees these days is that its no longer necessary for IT people to have that degree and barriers for entry have been set much much lower now. I would wager the biggest reason for that is the major leaps in advancement of technology and the profiliferation of freely available information.

networker050184

I'd say most of the more senior folks in my industry started in a different field so they probably weren't even thinking about this when picking a major if they even went to college at all. I think it will be more common for the younger people just getting into the business to more likely have related degrees like CS though. No one really grew up wanting to work with networks when I was a kid and I'm in my early 30s.

jeremywatts2005

My initial degree was an Associate of Applied Science and our first year was all hard core electronics. Very math and science orientated. When I finally got to go to the networking portion I breezed through. The reason was in the electronics portion where we received a one year diploma in electronics we learned how to troubleshoot problems in a very organized and scientific manner. Still pays off till this day. I am known for being a fixer and someone who can take something highly complex break it into parts solve those and remediate the entire situation. This is lacking in many courses and training today.

evarney

Iristheangel wrote: »

And no one has ever cheated in college to pass a class that they otherwise would have failed? While **** exist, there are also online forums, groups, and paid services that solely exist to help someone get past a certain class at a certain institution or do their coursework for them. It's just spoken about a bit less because classes/coursework can vary from institution-to-institution so it's not as standardized on a grand level as ****. Certifications and degrees are great to have but you still need to validate the candidates knowledge. Just because they come with a piece of paper doesn't mean anything until you test those abilities.

True that I guess...I'm just popping off.

It's a little less standardized though by comparison to a IT EXAM where there is a test question bank.
enless your school is entirely comprised of IT certifications...

I guess I could get someone else to write a C++ program for me, but I think you have to go to a little more trouble to have someone produce a program for you. I could stand to be corrected....

In generally a degree or certification is just a piece of paper..point taken

revbox

Simple answer, because of all the math yo. I've worked in IT for 15 years now and haven't used anything other than basic arithmetic. I'm not a developer or engineer, nor do I ever want to be. I'd rather not spend my time taking logic and theory courses that would be extremely difficult for me. I picked my degree plan and school just so I could duck any form of math I considered to be a challenge.

xnx

Because it's difficult, it taught me to graft academically and is one of the reasons studying for certs feel so easy..

BradleyHU

LeBroke wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why do people think Computer Science has a lot of math?

I looked up my university's Comp Sci requirements, for example, and it's only a single math course more than my Biochem degree (linear algebra), which is just a more math-heavy version of the analytical chemistry course we had to take.

I guess it's more math compared to something like an IT degree (all practical skills) or humanities (writing/critical thinking), but certainly it's on par with any science major, and less than engineering and many finance/accounting degrees.

I know at my undergrad it was a lot...
Calc 1 & 2(which my CIS degree also required)
Linear Algebra
Probability & Stats(CIS took biz stats)
Physics w/Calc 1 & 2


waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much math for me...

volfkhat

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Why does it seem like a lot of IT professionals don't have a CS degree?

Simplest Answer:
For the same reason your Mechanic doesn't have a degree in Mechanical Engineering.
Or your Plumber doesn't have a degree in Thermal Fluid Dynamics.

~ Because a degree in Computer Science is NOT required for a successful career in IT.


I have worked with many talented individuals in my career.
Two of the best:
One had a degree in Accounting.
And the other had NO degree whatsoever.

Just Say'in...

DatabaseHead

@ volf I get it and I have known of really smart IT works without CS degrees I also know several who do possess them. One gentleman in particular runs a massive data center for one of the big 2 communication companies in the US. He has a BS and MS in Computer Science. No degrees etc so it does go both ways. Obviously it won't sink your career without it, but if you have the chance and aptitude it's probably not a bad idea to go ahead and get it.

volfkhat

DatabaseHead wrote: »

@ volf I get it and I have known of really smart IT works without CS degrees I also know several who do possess them. One gentleman in particular runs a massive data center for one of the big 2 communication companies in the US. He has a BS and MS in Computer Science. No degrees etc so it does go both ways. Obviously it won't sink your career without it, but if you have the chance and aptitude it's probably not a bad idea to go ahead and get it.

Yaw... i generally agree with you.
Personally, I would encourage everyone to earn an Associates/Bachelors.....
i'm just Not in favor of the Crushing student debt.

With that being said,
i also don't think you should be required to major in "computers" in order to get a "computer" job.

The purpose of going to college [at 18] is to be exposed to ALL types of subjects. How is someone supposed to know "for sure" what they want to do at such a young age?

It's nonsense.
(btw, i majored in CS)


Just for consideration, check out this thread:
http://www.techexams.net/forums/ccnp/113331-starting-ccnp.html

:]

DatabaseHead

To each their own, it's their educational dollars they can do what they want. I also read how you would of liked to go with History.

All is well!

volfkhat

DatabaseHead wrote: »

To each their own, it's their educational dollars they can do what they want. I also read how you would of liked to go with History.

All is well!

You know what?
Chiming in on Deus Ex Machina's thread kind of gives me new insight on this thread.

Perhaps one reason we don't see many CS degrees from People in IT:

Most people at age 18 don't know where they'll be at age 28.

Meaning: Quite a few IT professionals probably "ended up" working in IT; but didn't "start" their careers there.

just a thought...

JC Denton

My 2 (Eastern-European) cents:

I got my 4-year B.Sc. manly because I wanted to have firm understanding of theory and get a glance over the entire field before I proceed with any specializations. I’ve never seen myself as a programmer/software engineer, but I certainly don’t regret having to learn C/C# or theory behind how operating systems work…

Officially, I have a degree in (roughly translated) “Applied computer science and electronics engineering”, but I often just say “IT” as it is shorter and closer to my actual work and career. In any case, education I got was pretty broad and covered a lot of things, which was great for me. Among other things, I had:

• math and programming courses (C, C# mostly in my case),
• database courses (theory and practice/lab work with SQL Server and Oracle),
• operating systems courses (theory and labs with Linux and Windows),
• courses in information systems theory,
• e-business courses,
• networking (theory and labs which was basically a CCNA course),
• wireless communications (again, mostly theory and math)
• courses in physical large-scale networks design (theory about laying cables, setting up antennas, crossing over other types of infrastructure…)

…
Also, in my first year I had courses in economics theory, accounting, sociology…don’t know why, really.

All in all, I had to pass around 32 core and elective courses/exams + graduation thesis to get a degree. Only after that I focused on specializing in certain area(s). I was never really interested in a M.Sc. as it is generally unnecessary and in reality weighs less than certs for IT-related positions such as sysadmin, netadmin, infosec, etc. In other words, where I come from, B.Sc. is sufficient for managerial roles (mid to higher IT management).

So, in my opinion, CS degree is not necessary to perform your job well (especially considering that you tend to forget things that you don’t use/apply very often) but it can help you become a well-rounded IT pro (at least in the eyes of HR).

cheers!

volfkhat

JC Denton wrote: »

So, in my opinion, CS degree is not necessary to perform your job well (especially considering that you tend to forget things that you don’t use/apply very often) but it can help you become a well-rounded IT pro (at least in the eyes of HR).

You say all that.... but you didn't get a Computer Science degree either.

You got something else; some kind of blend of math, programming, business, network/design.
(Did you take a security class in cryptography? or Artificial Intelligence? I would classify these as signature CS subjects)

It sounds like your degree is closer to a Computer Information Systems (CIS) degree here in the US?
(and YES, definitely made you a more well-rounded/better professional).

Or maybe it's me. perhaps i'm just behind the times??
/shrug

akatsuki91

Although I am new to the field I see that it is very diverse. I was in school for IT before I switched to CS and there is a big difference depending on the school. CS is definitely harder but depending on what you work on they could either be closely related or complete opposites. I work as a systems engineer and deal with software so my CS degree helps out greatly. Our sys admins are very good at what they do but they say they would hate to do the stuff I have to do. CS is more theory IT is hands on and directly related to a technology. I can design a network but have no clue how to manage it like our network guys can lol.

JC Denton

@Volfkhat:

Yes, you are actually right - my degree is way closer to CIS than CS, although there were some elective courses (never took them) that concerned AI and neural-net theory, but no cryptography other than rudimental stuff that you learn on cert exams like CASP and similar.

When I think about it, I would actually go as far as saying that if you want to work in IT (network engineer, sysadmin, DB admin, web programming, etc.), you're better off with an education and a degree similar to what I had than a "classic" CS degree, with a lot of low-level programming courses, cryptography, AI...

volfkhat

@JC
Yaw, i think you had a great curriculum :]

On a related note, check out this:
How this two-year college is tackling the tech industry's talent shortage - GeekWire

Now these guys get it...

beads

I don't write well but I can put together a mathematical proof that can determine the likelihood of an event occurring versus the control costs that will be alarmingly accurate over time. In other words: superior risk management skills can save the organization big money. IT people can never prove or disprove a mathematical assumption to save their lives.

It depends on the problem your trying to solve. CS people make better developers and really better security people because they are trained in software logic. CompTia+ exams aren't much help here. Doesn't mean people aren't going to be successful without a degree in CS, just means they are going to be successful in doing other things CS people don't do well.

- b/eads

OctalDump

So here in Australia, the typical Bachelor degree is 3 years. Usually there is the option to do a 4th, honours, year if your marks are good enough which is mostly completing a large research project/thesis.

But the downside of this is if you go for a broad/theoretical degree, like Computer Science, then you still tend to come out needing to significantly develop practical skills. I suspect the situation is similar in other places. A CS degree is a good basis to develop from, since you have a good grasp of fundamentals (well, you should have). This means that graduates often take roles far below their potential (eg helpdesk) or need to develop further skills.

So there's currently a few different approaches. One is to provide Master's level courses in specialisations (Security, Cloud, Network Administration, IT Management, development, etc). Another has been to ditch the broad/theoretical approach, and start teaching quite practically focussed programs. So you can do Bachelor in Mobile Application Development, Games Development, Network Security etc. The upside is that you hit the ground running with much more "work ready skills", and the downside is that you have a much narrower and less flexible background.

But if you are smart (academically capable, intelligent), and are willing to spend a little more time in education, I still think a CS degree is a good option because it does allow you greater flexibility and more scope to improvise and innovate. If you just want to be a network engineer or games programmer or system admin etc, then it's probably quicker and cheaper to go for more specialist programs.