Ever experience a situation like this......

You are a senior in your role, and a junior who has hardly been in the role bounces for a role not only higher level than yours but for considerable more money. Not hating, but I did find out he completely fabricated on their resume. (External position)

Is this just one of those things are is there more to it? Is this how you make the money, fabricate and fake it till you make it?

I'm kind of floored, the guy was only doing the job for 10 months, and I have been in this type of work for 4 years.......

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DPG

The person who jumped ship was seen as more valuable to the new company than the old. Simple as that.

josephandre

Even in the way you respond to this thread you come off as insecure and passive aggressive.

And how would you leverage someone else getting a better job into more money from your company?

if your boss has already told you "face to face" how great you are and how much you undersell yourself

deepite your awesome talents, seems like that would be the time.

Iristheangel

Tone is a hard thing to pass via text. I think it's how it was phrased. It wasn't coming off as "Hey, I've got this friend I used to work with that I'm worried about because he lied to his new employer about his skills and now I'm worried his mouth wrote a check that his skills can't cash."

Instead the thread was started painting the picture of a former coworker who was junior, lied to get a more senior job, and you're "floored" that this happened. The question you posed in the first post was whether or not this is one of those things that happened or is that how you make more money.

I think the responses were mostly appropriate. There's two things to factor in people's responses:

1) This is an anecdotal story and not necessarily representative of the industry as a whole. Just because it may (or may not have) worked for one guy or a small group of guys does not mean that it's a good idea to try to incorporate dishonest methods into your job hunt because not all companies will let you slide. The one person who piped up in this thread and said he fakes it until he makes it has gone through many jobs in a short amount of time. If anything at all, that's an anecdotal story that shows that it's not easy to last long without being discovered.

2) There's a lot of things YOU don't know either. While this person may be your friend, egos still exist and just because he said he gets paid more does not mean he actually does. You weren't in his interview, see his paycheck (well, you might but that seems like an odd thing for friends who show their other friends), know what his job title is with his HR, etc. Even if he's being 100% honest with you, you don't know what's going through his employer's head when they hired him.

In the end, it may have happened just like you think it may have but it's not representative to the industry as a whole. While folks definitely do lie, they mostly get caught in the technical interview, background check or on the job. The best way to make money in this industry is to have the skills, grow more skills or deepen the ones you have, and be willing to jump into the next best opportunity when it presents itself.

TechGromit

DatabaseHead wrote: »

You are a senior in your role, and a junior who has hardly been in the role bounces for a role not only higher level than yours but for considerable more money.

A co-worker making more money often has to do with negotiating skill and circumstances. A perfect example is a co-worker hired at the same time as me (and same level, but different job) was able to negotiate 10k more, the difference was he had a state job at the time and could afford to walk if they didn't give him what he demanded. I on the other hand was a contractor and my contract was up, I had one foot out the door. Usually if you already have a job you have more leverage, when your unemployed, employer are more likely to stick with there first offer, they know you can't afford to pass up a good position.

fmitawaps

I can see I was mentioned in Iris' thread above. Allow me to clarify on that statement:

I've ended up in a loop of contract assignments, hence the short terms of jobs. I haven't wanted to do a contract job in two years, but that was what was available. I have been applying for direct hire jobs. With one exception, I was there the prescribed length of the contract, more or less. The one exception? Those guys were pure a$$holes, plain and simple, and job skills or not, I wasn't going to tolerate their attitudes for long. Within a week and a half I was ready to leave, and I told other people, and I knew my supervisor would probably find out, and I didn't care.

In a perfect world full of rainbows and flowers and unicorns, I could tell the truth on my resume and steadily progress in IT responsibilities, and learn along the way. But things haven't gone quite that smoothly, and between my impatience and desire for career advancement and eagerness to learn and acquire new IT skills, I find myself pushing the limits of telling the truth, bending the truth, and just plain creating a new truth. Not saying it's right, but it's necessary.

Kalabaster

Honestly, whatever else this guy may have done a lot of it could have been what you didn't do. Are you certain that you couldn't have gotten the position this guy did if you applied for it? Many times I've seen senior talent sit on a position for years past the time when it would have started being a good idea to look for the money elsewhere. Everyone has their priorities and the things that drive them.

If the dude lied, whatever he's not your problem anymore and he'll either bust his ass to get to where he can perform the function he signed up for or he'll be fired. Only thing you can change is what you do. Are you sure you're happy with your position and salary? Might it be time to change? If you're happy where you are then should you ask for a raise?

Ertaz

I read this differently than most of you do. The guy that jumped ship falsified information to get to the next step. I'm a little judgmental of that myself. A guy that was an intern with me 5 years ago now has his CCIE DC and is making bank as a consultant. Do I begrudge him that? Heck no. He ground it out and made it the right way. I'm proud of him and for him. That's how you do it. Shortcuts will always bite you in the long run.

ITHokie

fmitawaps wrote: »

...and just plain creating a new truth.

Methinks you're confused about the meaning of the word...

Infosec85

josephandre wrote: »

Even in the way you respond to this thread you come off as insecure and passive aggressive.

And how would you leverage someone else getting a better job into more money from your company?

if your boss has already told you "face to face" how great you are and how much you undersell yourself

deepite your awesome talents, seems like that would be the time.

I agree I seen his previous thread about not wanting to share knowledge with his colleagues. Not the type of guy I would want go work with...

NetworkNewb

fmitawaps wrote: »

I could tell the truth on my resume and steadily progress in IT responsibilities, and learn along the way. But things haven't gone quite that smoothly, and between my impatience and desire for career advancement and eagerness to learn and acquire new IT skills, I find myself pushing the limits of telling the truth, bending the truth, and just plain creating a new truth. Not saying it's right, but it's necessary.

A lot of words to try and justify lying on a resume...

Also, its not necessary

TeKniques

This is pretty cut and dry to me. Does anyone really care if someone lies on their resume? Having been a hiring manager I take someone's resume, go right down their experience they "claim" to have and ask questions directly pertaining to that experience. If they can't answer the questions then it's obvious they fabricated it and they won't get the job. It's actually a very simple process, you get subject matter experts into the interview if you can't ask the proper questions pertaining to the experience.

@fmitawaps - instead of thinking you need to start "creating a new truth" I suggest you study up on how to sell yourself and go do it. If you're honest in an interview and don't claim to be something you're not the hiring manager and people interviewing you will have more respect for you and will at some point give you a chance. A good way to disqualify yourself from a position is to say you can do something on your resume and then when asked for specifics your response is a bunch of "ummms, and wells, followed by more ummms" trying to find the right answer. Just be honest, you'll get a lot further.

mnashe

I agree with those who said he may not be making the $ that he says he is. I once had a co-worker say he was leaving for a 70% increase, uh huh yeah right. The reality is, if it's true, good for them, either way who cares. It's not helping you any

I don't believe in fabricating your resume with a few exceptions. If you're a network guy trying to get a VMware/server position and you learned VMware at home and really know it well, and have done upgrades to your lab, then sure go ahead and put it on your resume. As long as if they ask you questions that you can answer, what's the harm.

I look at people who clearly fabricate their resume the same as I look at people who feel they need to kiss a** to get ahead. No respect for them

Iristheangel

fmitawaps wrote: »

I can see I was mentioned in Iris' thread above. Allow me to clarify on that statement:

I've ended up in a loop of contract assignments, hence the short terms of jobs. I haven't wanted to do a contract job in two years, but that was what was available. I have been applying for direct hire jobs. With one exception, I was there the prescribed length of the contract, more or less. The one exception? Those guys were pure a$$holes, plain and simple, and job skills or not, I wasn't going to tolerate their attitudes for long. Within a week and a half I was ready to leave, and I told other people, and I knew my supervisor would probably find out, and I didn't care.

In a perfect world full of rainbows and flowers and unicorns, I could tell the truth on my resume and steadily progress in IT responsibilities, and learn along the way. But things haven't gone quite that smoothly, and between my impatience and desire for career advancement and eagerness to learn and acquire new IT skills, I find myself pushing the limits of telling the truth, bending the truth, and just plain creating a new truth. Not saying it's right, but it's necessary.

My mention of you was more that you wouldn't be what most would call a success story of faking it until you made it. You've kind of said that you've had issues holding contracting jobs and you cycle through them a lot. I hope you have gotten another networking gig and even if you have, you're not at a matured or advanced place in your career yet so I think it's accurate to say that "faking it until you make it" has worked or at least not yet.

I only know what you've put on this forum. From the impression I got, the following went down: You got your first networking gig, was impressed by what your coworkers were doing, honeymoon ended quickly, you got termed but that's just one example. I get the impression from some of the stuff you've said here and there that you don't really have realistic expectations of your role/responsibilities as an employees. For example, you seemed to be actually upset that you got fired for continuously being late for over a year at a job when you knew the route you took every day and you didn't want to leave earlier to make sure you were on time. Or that you've seemed upset/angry at time that employers cancelled your contract on a friday afternoon instead of to your face and you've gone out of your way to avoid those calls so they have to deal with a situation that may (or may not be) dangerous from their perspective. It seems like most of your comments and expectations have been from a cynical or entitled place and not-so-much reality.

While people do "make their own truth" on their resumes all the time, you do have an ethical obligation to not put yourself in a situation where you may mess up someone's environment or make them lose business. Why? Because they're paying you to do a job with the pretense that you were honest and could do the job. If feel like ethics don't matter and you don't need to be honest, why should any employer hire you or deliver what they promised in return? You haven't met their expectations either.

P.s. I actually find you highly amusing. At least you're pretty damn honest on here about your opinions and the things you do - even when they're off colored or not really the advice I'd give folks.

Remedymp

I'm not sure if it is anyone else's business about what is put on their resume or which position they've been hired for.

Things that are outside of your control should not be your business.

tmtex

Non IT but I have seen this. Kid who was just out of college hired as the lowest Acct person. 6 months later he was Manager of Accounting for a commercial Real estate Company. Jumped right over everyone else who has been there for years. Women loved him, Model type guy, Swimmers body, out going personality, You name it, he did it perfectly or had it perfectly. He could sell 10 cars a day if he sold cars.
Fired a year later for inputting a 1mil deal into whatever acct system they used and the brokers didn't get paid.

* I should add the Top exec of the office was a female

fmitawaps

Me - cynical, pessimistic, narcissistic? Yes, I can see that. Entitled? Maybe, up to a point.

Although I can and do embellish my resume a bit, even I have standards of honesty, ethics, and performance, believe it or not.

For example, if some company offered me a role as their sole network admin, I would be the first one to profess doubts about it. Sure, I would want to do it, but deep down, I know what I can and can't do, and I would not put myself in a position at some company where a significant calamity happened, I couldn't handle it, then I find myself in the CIO's office with him saying something like "Dude, dafuq? I thought you said you had this under control, no problem!".

If I were a junior admin, with someone to turn to for advice and assistance on projects, that would be good, and I feel I could do well there, but I know I am not ready to be a sole admin of a corporate network.

On the other hand, I have been doing desktop support more than long enough, and the problems with getting into something with a bit more responsibility and use of my experience and training has been frustrating. Thus I feel the need to do what it takes to be considered a little more for jobs I have trained for, for quite some time.

cmztech

DatabaseHead wrote: »

I was curious if you experienced it, I am not worried about it at all. Just thought it was interesting......

The key take away it seems fabrication is not as risky as I once thought. Maybe fake it till you make it isn't a bad strategy, hey it can get you in the door right? If you didn't fabricate, AKA lie you wouldn't of gotten the position in the first place which means you have a 0% chance of sticking around whereas if you did lie, got the job and made it through the trials and tribulations you may have found yourself a nice little lottery ticket.

Just for the records, I wouldn't do it. I'm not wired that way, that's probably why I am not rich lol.

Interesting article in regards to fabrication.

Resume Mistakes: More Than Half of Hiring Managers See Lies on Resumes | Sounds like something that is common.....

@Database Hey, I wanted to say a couple more things. First I wanted to point out my comment earlier was trying to address this particular thing you said quoted above. I may have sounded like I just stayed a night at the Holiday Inn but the reality is that I sympathize with what you are saying here. I believe this is a real situation for a lot of us out there that just don't know how to act when we go for the bigger money. Whether it be we come from humble backgrounds or whatever, the fact remains that IT jobs for experienced admins (especially with a strong current skill set) are paying huge dividends. Like, 80+ easy for a lot of jobs but getting past that 60'ish mark is just hard for some of us to imagine we are actually that valuable. There has to be a way we can learn to accept that, Hey!, we (are) that valuable and we do bring that value to the company and we demand this amount or no thank you...

Sometimes, I wonder how does one really know their true value, ya know? With all the different factors and just everything considered like the guy who has great work ethics but not as many certs, or the guy with tons of certs and unable to communicate with management. Or the guy (and girl of course in all scenarios), who is maybe not knowledgeable as others but is just one heck of a team player that they inspire others to work together and therefore = value. I scratch my head all the time when it comes down to negotiations, I always want to ask for above average pay but get a frog in my throat like they are going to see right through me, even though I know (according to previous positions) I was bringing some serious value to the table. Then I end up low balling my salary and feeling bitter wondering should I have asked for more...not fun.

I said all that to say the second thing, thank you for this thread. I'm learning a lot from everyone's point of view on this topic which I am glad exist at this point in time. I needed this.

Edit: In retrospect, Iris did put helpful advice for the HR negotiation phase in her blog below. Thanks!
http://www.network-node.com/blog/2016/5/19/careerjob-advice-and-observations

9bits

cmztech wrote: »

Then I end up low balling my salary and feeling bitter wondering should I have asked for more...not fun.

I know that feeling. When I was unemployed, I had someone offer to pay me to do a contract job. I said I would do it for free just for the experience. Then the financial stress of not having any income and not being able to afford food started to get to me, so I quit on him so I could go do day labor and at least get a small check. He wasn't happy, and for that matter, neither was I.

Iristheangel

@fmitawaps - Either way, you're super funny and it's more my experience of you on the forum. You might be vastly different irl. Either way, keep on posting. Even when you're being cynical, I get a good laugh (not in a bad way)

volfkhat

Gonna have to go the other way on this.

I have multiple Resumes,
with multiple Job Titles,
each emphasizing Multiple areas of expertise.

Is that lying?

Yes, No, Maybe so.
(don't really give a rat's @ss)

If i can leverage it to get an interview,
Grind through the technical screening/gauntlet,
and then Land the position with Better pay and More opportunity for Learning...

then Who are You to Admonish??

Hate the Game.... Not the Playa.

NetworkNewb

volfkhat wrote: »

Admonish

I'm not the only one who had to Google this word right? Guess there is a reason I didn't do that great in my English courses.

cyberguypr

ESL here, didn't have to Google it. Eslkidslab.com worked for me. Give it a shot. I KID I KID

tom_dub

Sounds like politics.

I'd say my job is 70% politics, 30% actual skill knowledge in order to get ahead.

We recently had a guy promoted into a pretty high level server administration position his first shot, jumping past much much senior guys who were giving it their 2nd, even 3rd try. The guy didn't have any more advanced skill set than the others and everyone knew it. However, he played League of Legends with the right people, went out to lunch daily with them, and partied on the weekends with them.

It's all about how you play the game.

Unfortunately this is found in almost every place you will work from my experience.

100k

This is the first time I heard League of Legends getting people promoted. Maybe I should have my boss play with me...

Remedymp

I believe there was another thread where we discussed the issue of not willing to share information and meritocracy. And this thread pretty much proves my point. There are people in IT that should not be there at all. I'll give an example;

We recently had a person who used to work at home depot with no IT experience get into a IT Security role. This person was trained on the side of incident handling and response and firewall administration. So, when he was brought on as a contractor, he was quickly offered a FTE role making $80k a year. All because he and the person who referred him played Call of Duty on Xbox online.

We have people come in with great backgrounds in IT, and not get a call back because they did not fit in "culturally" with the group. ie; the person didn't play enough Madden or Call of Duty or League of Legends. Meanwhile, the people with a Bachelors or Masters degree WGU can't get in because some schmuck from Home depot moving pallets around is occupying a position now.

It is what It is...

TheFORCE

Before my first IT job I was loading fedex packages in a truck. Are you saying that because someone workes at some point in the past in an industry unrelated to IT that they are not qualified to get into IT?

The guy you hired already had experience with incident handling and firewall administration. Who ever hired him, they took that into account more than his past job.

Infosec85

TheFORCE wrote: »

Before my first IT job I was loading fedex packages in a truck. Are you saying that because someone workes at some point in the past in an industry unrelated to IT that they are not qualified to get into IT?

The guy you hired already had experience with incident handling and firewall administration. Who ever hired him, they took that into account more than his past job.

I think he's stating that the person given the job had no experience and was trained up for it. Most people work all kinds of low paying unskilled jobs while in college and university so I don't think the post is an issue.

TheFORCE

Infosec85 wrote: »

I think he's stating that the person given the job had no experience and was trained up for it. Most people work all kinds of low paying unskilled jobs while in college and university so I don't think the post is an issue.

That's not what he meant, read thw entire post and the context in it. He is trying to say that if you become buddies with a high level decision maker you can get into IT even with not much experience while people that stusy for IT suffer to get in because they dont have the connections.

Remedymp

TheFORCE wrote: »

Before my first IT job I was loading fedex packages in a truck. Are you saying that because someone workes at some point in the past in an industry unrelated to IT that they are not qualified to get into IT?

The guy you hired already had experience with incident handling and firewall administration. Who ever hired him, they took that into account more than his past job.

No he did not. You're misunderstanding my post.

He wasn't even thinking about going into IT. He was comfortable making minimum wage where he was at. The person that he played Xbox with introduced him to the job while working from home. He gave him access to all the firewalls and command line task and trained him on incident handling and response before creating the req for him. The Req was created for this person with no experience as if he did have the experience.

If this person would have applied with just a resume that says "home depot". He wouldn't be able to get an interview in over someone with a BS in Information Security. Not only is he taking advantage of all of the SANS training the company has to offer, but they're going to pay for his bachelors as well.

These are issues that plague the IT industry on a regular basis from a human resource stand point. And some people wonder why women have such a hard time getting into the technology industry as well.

I am saying, there are people in IT that should NOT be there period and are being helped along the way.

So, if you want to know why some people fabricate their resume, now you know.

volfkhat

LOL

that's freak'in sick......

But honesttly... i'm NOT even sure if i should blame Mr Depot.

Did he Lie on his resume?
Well, If yes... then HR deserves a LOT of the blame for NOT doing any duediligence.

But Actually,
it Sounds like he did Not lie; since the Job is going to PAY for his Bachelors.
lol

STILL SHAKING MY HEAD.

It sounds this guy was just "right place at the right time".
Or, more appropriately, it's --> WHO you KNOW (as oppose to WHAT you know).

Some people try to gain an advantage via Linkedin....
is there really a difference?