3 interviews later and now it's down to a game of poker

cmztech

Folks, I could use your insight.

I got three interviews done for an ISSO position. During those interviews, at no point was salary or compensation a discussion. The hiring manager says they like me and want to prepare me an offer letter and I should get the offer later by 'said' date.

Well, no offer letter on 'said' date, but the following day I get a phone call. The hiring manager says they are still working on the offer letter and then proceeds to ask me questions. At which point I begin playing dodge-ball and always referring back to how I would love to see the offer letter first so I can go through it and get back to them.

At one point it was asked "what salary range do you have in mind". Here I kindly suggested that I'd love to be considered for fair market value. The hiring manager says "how about $X" and I suggested that it sounds a bit below the average and I assured them that the value I can provide is above average. I then asked what was the salary range for this role and they said they "don't know".

At this point, I reiterate my interest is high for this job and they basically say "we will get back to you". I am not sure now whether I will see an offer letter or not. What does this situation sound like to you more experienced folks? (besides pointing out how green I am at negotiating)

scaredoftests

Keep asking for that offer letter and also state firmly your salary.

koz24

Probably made the mistake of reiterating your interest. If they sensed desperation out of you they will keep playing the waiting game. I don't agree with scaredoftests. Play it like you lost interest and if they really like you they will send you the offer letter anyway. Nothing you can do to force them to send you one so why lose sleep over it. Often times they want you more than you want them, unless they think you are desperate. Also, keep looking. Never stop looking and applying until you get that offer letter.

And they are lying about not knowing the salary range they have in mind. They always know that. They know that before even posting a job listing.

hurricane1091

koz24 wrote: »

Probably made the mistake of reiterating your interest. If they sensed desperation out of you they will keep playing the waiting game. I don't agree with scaredoftests. Play it like you lost interest and if they really like you they will send you the offer letter anyway. Nothing you can do to force them to send you one so why lose sleep over it. Often times they want you more than you want them, unless they think you are desperate. Also, keep looking. Never stop looking and applying until you get that offer letter.

And they are lying about not knowing the salary range they have in mind. They always know that. They know that before even posting a job listing.

So the Server Manager at work told me about how he got a promotion somewhere way back when he was 25 and did not need a new job. Applied somewhere for the heck of it, they offered him 60k I think, and he said no thanks and walked out. They called him when he was in the parking lot and asked what he needed, and he said he needed 80k to even touch this job. Well what do you know, he got it lol. So apparently acting like you do not need the job can work.

dave330i

See the section on salary:

http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/119817-career-job-advice-observations.html

cmztech

thanks this has all been very insightful. I was actually tempted to send an email, being all forthcoming all of a sudden, this morning. I'm glad I resisted now.

NotHackingYou

The ball is in their court. Wait for the offer letter. Once you get it, think about the complete offer (Not just pay, but all of it). Decide if it meets what you need or not and then respond accordingly.

It sounds like they are doing their job of trying to get the best candidate for the least amount of money. Now you need to do your job of getting the most amount of money because you won't get the chance to re-negotiate for the role once you start.

Edited to add: Think deeply before you take what you feel is a compromise on your salary. If it doesn't feel good now, it won't feel good in 6 months. State your worth and reasons for this and stand your ground.

powerfool

It is kind of crappy that it works the way it does... not having interest makes you more interesting? It shouldn't be that way... ideally a company would be stoked that someone they are interested in is equally interested in the company. Just the way it works.

So, that being said, if you want the job... don't push it too far, else you could lose it. They already put a number out there, so if it is way off, what do you want? Just throw it out there. It isn't like you are going to get them to reveal the maximum that they will pay... whatever you end up getting, know that you will almost certainly be leaving at least a little money on the table. It's just the way it is.

shochan

I recall 2 awesome jobs last year (one in Cali, & another remote position based in AR) that I was almost hired for, BUT we never really discussed salary until they were ready to hire & announce what they were going to pay me. Once I heard what they were offering, I basically went silent on the phone & said I am not your man, and said "I made that 10yrs ago!", <CLICK>. So, I make it a priority now to find out what they are offering from the get go, so they don't waste my time. Turns out they were not so awesome, more less CHEAP! When companies do this, they get what they pay for, in most cases.

gespenstern

I guess there's no other way around this until you become a mature expert. When you are an expert it becomes easier to negotiate. With my experience I don't even start talking without getting clear and precise information on what's the pay. Upfront or go look for other candidates.

You will get there eventually, but until then it's really hard to secure a good offer. Overall it is like you work for a couple of years like 5-8 years to just get the experience that allows you to negotiate.

cyberguypr

Exactly. This is why I always make sure everyone is on the same page regarding compensation before I invest time interviewing. No point in wasting anyone's time.

mudflaps

Yes, get a ballpark first. Second, be the party with the least to lose. IMO, if you have nothing to lose and you are patient, you will win in negotiation.

networker050184

This is why ball park compensation should be talked about on the first call. Save everyone a whole bunch of wasted time and interviews.

Remedymp

It's a shame that prospective resources are being treated like this in 2016. All I can do is Smh...

mudflaps

Remedymp wrote: »

It's a shame that prospective resources are being treated like this in 2016. All I can do is Smh...

If companies would pay their people, it would be easier to attract and retain talent.

Mitechniq

I did this exact same thing a month ago, ran comparisons, market value, research etc..
Even though I was their top candidate, they went with their second choice because he was cheaper.

mudflaps

Mitechniq wrote: »

I did this exact same thing a month ago, ran comparisons, market value, research etc..
Even though I was their top candidate, they went with their second choice because he was cheaper.

Again, you get what you pay for.

Remedymp

mudflaps wrote: »

If companies would pay their people, it would be easier to attract and retain talent.

The thing is, it's not as the company per se, but the management that are making these decisions. I've said this in another thread, IT is just plagued with people that should NOT be there period. Have no idea how they're surviving making poor decision after poor decision.

yellowpad

You finally got the offer?

cmztech wrote: »

thanks this has all been very insightful. I was actually tempted to send an email, being all forthcoming all of a sudden, this morning. I'm glad I resisted now.

powerfool

I did get contacted by a recruiter yesterday. I am not looking for a job, I would actually be quite resistant to a new job because I like my job, the pay, the flexibility, and the company. I do like to stay up to speed with the job market though and I normally entertain interviews a couple of times a year, just to see if things have changed or there is something interesting out there. For whatever reason I haven't done this in the past couple of years... but I checked into this one. I started up drafting an email to the recruiter because they did supply the salary range and it would take north of 2x the high-end of the salary to even get my attention if I were looking. I didn't send it because I didn't want to start being hounded by the recruiter. However, having the salary has kept me from wasting my time.

cwelber

I hear you. I have CISSP and will finish my Cybersecurity masters in about 5 weeks. I would need a minimum 50% bump to jump, plus more flexible hours.

cmztech

This phone conversation was on Wednesday and I haven't heard from them since. It all feels a bit like the twilight zone. I've heard HR can take weeks and even months to finalize an offer for a candidate they like. I'm just trying to play the game using advice I've found on the web.

This is of course an opportunity to get my feet wet and I do need to get more ISSO related certs, i.e. CISSP to really fit the bill. Chances are good I'd accept something to get in the door, but I'm trying not to show my hand.

cmztech

Folks, I just got an email with an offer for 10k more than what I rejected. Here is what the thing though, it is via email.

It's not an official offer letter with details about anything else, i.e. vacation or whatever. Not sure what to think although I am initially excited. The title of email is "Conditional Offer for..said position"

Permission to celebrate?

koz24

Congrats! Can probably expect a hard copy in the mail too. Usually the conditional part means you have to pass some background checks.

NotHackingYou

I think so, as long as the 10K over your rejected amount brings it into the 'slight above market value' range you wanted.

NetworkNewb

Congrats!!!

cmztech

@NotHackingYou, it is actually below average but, the voice of reason is telling me, I don't exactly have experience in this role and I have a lot to prove, yet. So, even though it's at the bottom of my range, I will gleefully accept and not push back here.

NotHackingYou

Then I think this is a win. Sometimes, you get paid in money. Sometimes, you get paid in experience. As long as the learning opportunity is there, it sounds like a good move.

cmztech

I'll drink to that!
cheers

TheFORCE

cmztech wrote: »

Folks, I just got an email with an offer for 10k more than what I rejected. Here is what the thing though, it is via email.

It's not an official offer letter with details about anything else, i.e. vacation or whatever. Not sure what to think although I am initially excited. The title of email is "Conditional Offer for..said position"

Permission to celebrate?

Just make sure they sending you the formal letter also.

cyberguypr

I agree that this sounds good. Reply with an acceptance understanding a formal letter with details is expected shortly.