New Manager, not very knowledgeable

markulous

Anyone have a manager, particularly in infosec, that just is in way over their head?

Our old manager ended up taking a job somewhere else because of some politics and the guy that replaced him doesn't have the first idea about security. I don't expect someone super technical but for a director I'd expect at least CISSP knowledge.

Is this something you just truck through or bail? I'm going to stay for a little bit longer to take advantage of training, but maybe my expectations are too high. It's just frustrating a lot when he's lost a lot of times and tries to act like he knows more than he does.

t93cobra

I've never been in your shoes and won't act like I have either. This is what I would do…continue to perform my work at the highest level I can. Make the best of your situation. I bet, after some time, you'll learn something from your new manager that you didn't think was possible and you'll grow because of it.

boxerboy1168

Alternatively you can begin quietly throwing him under the bus with very vague and suggestive language to fellow workers turning them against him. Divide and conquer. All the while you can use his weak technical knowledge and leadership as a tool to begin building stronger relationships with your co-workers by poop talking with them and strengthening your bond with said co-workers.

Use these new found friendships to your advantage by getting the new "boss" fired or at the very least turning everyone against him with the intention of creating a hostile work environment (very hard to prove in court without concrete evidence ) covertly and with subtly.

Once he gets fired or inevitably quits you have create an opportunity that you can now seize upon to advance your career, congratulations.

Also, now you have successfully obtained knew knowledge on how to social engineer a security firm by dividing the workforce against management creating inherent inefficiencies within the implementation of knew security policy. I am very tired and adjusting to a new overnight schedule so this may not make sense.

Now you can get a job in espionage and go after the Russians and Trump as a master spy.

If you would like to hire me as a consultant please contact me via message.

scaredoftests

Who interviewed him anyway?

markulous

He has worked here for years so they didn't interview anyone and just handed him the job. Guessing to save money.

bertieb

Is it just the level of technical knowledge thats putting you off your new boss? I ask because this is has been a fairly common scenario for me. Chances are he is highly skilled in other core areas, business management, soft skills etc. If that's the case, stick around and give him some more time to bed in and demonstrate those skills as there will be things you can learn and grow from professionally.

If he's rude, abrasive, no fun to work for or a complete fraud - and everyone else in the team is struggling to maintain morale making the trip to work each day seem like hell - then thats a different argument altogether. I've been there a couple of times, gave the new bosses a couple of months grace and then got out if I still felt the situation wouldn't improve. Life is too short to work under a really bad manager.

Phileeeeeeep651

Maybe it's just me but of all of the Managers and Directors I've worked for, 90% of them have not been technical.

My first manager at my current position was a non-technical person. He had experience managing a customer service team (call center) and I believe he came in pretty cheap which is why upper management took a shot on him. Either way, he was pretty decent with the actual people management and administrative duties, however, where he fell short was with his ego and how it wouldn't allow him to be humble and admit that he didn't know everything. He started not trusting our opinions and expertise as technicians and started coming up with his own solutions, selling to customers and sales teams impossible solutions...this eventually lead to his firing.

As sort of a contrast to that last paragraph, a lot of the higher enlisted/officers I worked for in the Navy were non-technical as well. Most of them had no problems walking up to me and asking to explain things to them technically so it can be used in a brief or asking advice on how to implement a circuit, etc. They understood that they didn't know everything about every system onboard but they trusted the technicians that did. I guess in my mind that's the biggest difference between being just a manager and being an effective manager.

Long story short...Not sure exactly what your role is but I'm not sure that I would bounce just yet. I agree with what t93cpbra said, give it some time, keeping doing you, make the best of the situation, and reevaluate once things level out.

Ertaz

markulous wrote: »

He has worked here for years so they didn't interview anyone and just handed him the job. Guessing to save money.

Hiring internally is a nice idea, but at some point you have to realize that you'll pave a few deer trails for every 4 lane that you develop...

blatini

Kinda had something similar happen here: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/126506-underperforming-employee-who-keeps-buying-team-food.html

Oddly enough he outright quit the morning he was going to be let go.

IIRC your previous job situations I would stick it out as long as you can. I probably would regardless. How long has it been since he was hired? Maybe he will gradually become humbled as time goes on and stop pretending?

markulous

I'd say he's "nice" and doesn't micromanage.

He really doesn't do anything though. We ask him for help and he doesn't action on anything. All he does is just kind of kick down whatever the CIO says (we don't have a CISO).

Our first intro to him as our manager, he announced to everyone that security sucks, no one likes us, and that we are just roadblocks so we kind of got off on the wrong foot.

I personally can live with someone that's not super technical but he doesn't really make up for it in any other way. I think the plan now is to get my CISSP, hopefully get a bonus in September, then bail if nothing improves. That puts me there over a year so I don't look too job hoppy

volfkhat

boxerboy1168 wrote: »

Also, now you have successfully obtained knew knowledge on how to social engineer a security firm by dividing the workforce against management creating inherent inefficiencies within the implementation of knew security policy. I am very tired and adjusting to a new overnight schedule so this may not make sense.

Now you can get a job in espionage and go after the Russians and Trump as a master spy.

If you would like to hire me as a consultant please contact me via message.

Bwahahahaha!
:]

markulous

blatini wrote: »

Kinda had something similar happen here: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/126506-underperforming-employee-who-keeps-buying-team-food.html

Oddly enough he outright quit the morning he was going to be let go.

IIRC your previous job situations I would stick it out as long as you can. I probably would regardless. How long has it been since he was hired? Maybe he will gradually become humbled as time goes on and stop pretending?

The link didn't work but maybe it's my phone.

He started a few months back. Haven't really seen any improvement. Other managers and employees don't really think much of him since he seems more like a politician than a manager.

My previous manager actually went to a super popular security company and gave me an interview but guess I bombed it since I haven't heard anything. I think I'll stay for the time being unless that comes to fruition

markulous

He doesn't need to be super technical, but I expect him to trust us when we tell him how to mitigate certain risks with a technical solution if he doesn't understand it. Instead he just ignores stuff and shoots from the hip for whatever the CIO says.

NetworkNewb

markulous wrote: »

My previous manager actually went to a super popular security company and gave me an interview but guess I bombed it since I haven't heard anything. I think I'll stay for the time being unless that comes to fruition

If it's been a week I would follow up with him. He must of liked you since he wanted to give you an interview. If you didn't pass the interview I'm guessing your previous manager would let you know where you screwed up on and what you can do better. Possibility for next time...

SpetsRepair

Kind of feels like I've worked at this company before....

p@r0tuXus

Similar scenario to where I work. Non-tech manager doesn't know best way to hire technical 3rd tier people. Results in turn-over trial and error. It'd do him well to consider the input of his senior staff. But he's been with the company so long, how could he be wrong?

gespenstern

Totally sucks when it happens... I worked once under a CISO who had no clue, but he was a crony of a CIO. Unfortunately these things happen and people hire those who are loyal to them no matter what their background is, hiding behind this "he has good personal skills" thing. Sucks.

But yeah, let him ruin himself in the eye of the management. If he really sucks it's only a question of time before he makes a huge consequences misstep.

markulous

NetworkNewb wrote: »

If it's been a week I would follow up with him. He must of liked you since he wanted to give you an interview. If you didn't pass the interview I'm guessing your previous manager would let you know where you screwed up on and what you can do better. Possibility for next time...

It's been a month. Sent the interviewer two emails and my former boss has been busy and said he doesn't know, so I'm guessing it's a no. But yeah, I totally agree, I wanted some feedback to know what to improve on. It's almost the same environment and job description so guessing it was just me interviewing poorly

markulous

gespenstern wrote: »

Totally sucks when it happens... I worked once under a CISO who had no clue, but he was a crony of a CIO. Unfortunately these things happen and people hire those who are loyal to them no matter what their background is, hiding behind this "he has good personal skills" thing. Sucks.

But yeah, let him ruin himself in the eye of the management. If he really sucks it's only a question of time before he makes a huge consequences misstep.

Ah, sounds like almost the same situation. Did you stick around?

The previous manager was great but he wouldn't play politics so I think that's part of the reason this manager will be favored. He's the polar opposite where he sucks with security but kisses the CIOs butt and he eats it up

NOC-Ninja

Maybe his in the bubble. Someone knows him and got him inside.
You will be surprise how many top guys that hire people that are dumb because they are not a threat to them.

gespenstern

markulous wrote: »

Did you stick around?

Yes, for as long as it was making sense for my career. I did my job well (always do), I was paid relatively well, communication was mainly formal anyway, so it didn't bother me much. I didn't try to override whatever he did or sabotage anything, I did all the tasks he assigned to me well without much concern of how much did it hurt or benefited the company or wasted company resources (it's not my company anyways). Actually, this thing happens quite often, so you'd better get used to it. So I'm used to it and pretty cynical about it. "Whatever".

markulous

Oh yeah I wouldn't sabotage or do a bad job on something because of that either, I still want to learn and not burn bridges

scaredoftests

markulous wrote: »

Oh yeah I wouldn't sabotage or do a bad job on something because of that either, I still want to learn and not burn bridges

Good idea. Rise above the fray.

Priston

If your manager treats security as a joke, just wait until there's a breach on his watch. From what you've described so far, it sounds like he isn't excepting the responsibility of keeping things secure. So why would he when there is a problem...

SpetsRepair

Priston wrote: »

If your manager treats security as a joke, just wait until there's a breach on his watch. From what you've described so far, it sounds like he isn't excepting the responsibility of keeping things secure. So why would he when there is a problem...

**** roles down hill, do you really think most middle managers get in trouble and they don't just pass it off on the guys below them?

UnixGuy

boxerboy1168 wrote: »

...
Use these new found friendships to your advantage by getting the new "boss" fired or at the very least turning everyone against him with the intention of creating a hostile work environment (very hard to prove in court without concrete evidence ) covertly and with subtly.

...

I would strongly advise against doing this. He's hired by someone who is his superior, and already has good relationships within upper management. They won't fire him because it will make them look bad.

Get on his good side, be professional and offer your technical expertise to help him get the hang of things. Get him on your side and make him be your supporter and promoter.

markulous

UnixGuy wrote: »

I would strongly advise against doing this. He's hired by someone who is his superior, and already has good relationships within upper management. They won't fire him because it will make them look bad.

Get on his good side, be professional and offer your technical expertise to help him get the hang of things. Get him on your side and make him be your supporter and promoter.

That's what I'm trying to do. He really doesn't listen, but I still am professional and try my best. It's not a situation where I feel like I need to get out soon, but it's one where I feel a bit capped due to the security program being stunted.

scaredoftests

Well, it(the security program) won't be stunted for long once there is a data breach. Oy..

markulous

To be fair, the program and projects that my previous manager put in are pretty good. The tools and hardware we use are great too, so he can piggy back on that for a little while and still say that due care and due diligence were done.

UnixGuy

Let him do whatever he wants, stay on his good side and get as much value as you can. You've got nothing to lose really here....he doesn't make the best decision techical wise...so be it. The business won't be perfect as a result of their incompetent hire, but that's the reality of the world we live in

markulous

Good advice, thank you. I think I'll do just that.

Late this year we will be deploying ISE, so that seems like a project to stick around for to put on the resume. Maybe next year I'll look unless I'm blown away by am offer