Audit calls for Western Governors University to repay $700M

DatabaseHead

aderon wrote: »

I'm taking an online master's degree from a traditional brick and mortar. And I have to say the material is several times easier than what I was doing for my bachelors at WGU. I've said it before, but passing a college level class is easier than earning a certification imo.

Depends what certification but I see your point.

CCIE, CCNP etc...... Agreed.

A+, not really.

thomas_

@Databasehead - Depends on the college class. With instructors telling you what is important for you to know on the test and TA's giving reviews before the exam, college classes are really simple to pass.

--chris--

thomas_ wrote: »

@Databasehead - Depends on the college class. With instructors telling you what is important for you to know on the test and TA's giving reviews before the exam, college classes are really simple to pass.

My BS classes at a B&M college have been really easy, like I am taking 4 classes a semester (2 at a time) and still studying linux, working out 4 days a week and having plenty of family time while working 40-50 hours (aka living a balanced life).

While this is bad press for school that is already battling lots of hate from people who need to read more, I still plan on pursuing a MS from them. As long as their accreditation holds and the curriculum looks good, I am still in.

beads

I've seen what goes for a "modern" thesis these days and have been unimpressed with the quality and depth compared to many years ago. So I would tend to agree with many of the brick and mortar institutions having drastically dropped their academic standards to attract students. I have recently read a Security master's thesis comprised of a single sided, double spaced paper that read more like a book report than a thesis. Oh add to that it was a mere seven pages long, really set me back. Much the same can be said for many of the recent Ph.D. thesis I have read as of late. Really? Where's the research part?

How does this relate to WGU? Its really about on par, gaining certs instead of classroom interaction and poor academic standards posing as education as neither add much value outside of the paper credential they represent.

Its been a race to the academic bottom for many years now.

- b/eads

DatabaseHead

Maybe the answer is no college then. Because if the quality is dropping and the cost is going up the clear cut decision to get a degree isn't there anymore, at least from my view.

I have a high school freshman living under my roof and she is going to the community college via the A+ program, no student loan debt.

I preach to her every week that student loan debt is the WORSE.....

TeKniques

College is a necessity for some careers and not for others. There's countless debates about it on this forum and others.

Here is some anecdotal food for thought - the past 2 weeks I've participated in a panel interview of 4 different candidates for a position in privacy and compliance, all of them had college degrees. When reviewing the applicants prior to the interviews I didn't care where they got their degree from, but rather what they said they knew based on their job experiences. After the interviews the unanimous top candidate got their degree from the University of Phoenix which I was surprised. To my point, I don't think it matters where you get your degree as long as the results are of value to you and you are able to represent yourself. Certainly, degrees from prestigious schools (Ivy League, Stanford, etc.) have high merit and rightfully so. Will this audit have a negative impact on WGU? Maybe ... I doubt most people facilitating interviews will even know about it.

Danielm7

++TeKniques - I interviewed a new security director applicant a few weeks ago. Had a BS from an ivy league, an MS and and MBA from very high ranked / well known schools. Most of what he said was wrong or inflated lies. The school rarely makes the person if they weren't already heading in the right direction.

TechGromit

I'm in the wrong line of business, maybe I should open an online school. 700 million dollars over two years is 350 million per year, at $2,850 per course, that's 112,000 courses. Each course is 6 months long, that comes out to 28,000 students, this puts on par with some of the largest universities in the country by student body. Actually the college lists a 2017 student body size as 70,000. Must get pretty crowded in there one campus building. Obviously this is only an online school, so overhead is low, they must make a killing.

The college is unrated and lists a graduation rate of only 14%. Compare this with a 59% graduation rate with a 4 year college and 62% completing a 4 year degree in 6 years.

mgeoffriau

TechGromit wrote: »

The college is unrated and lists a graduation rate of only 14%. Compare this with a 59% graduation rate with a 4 year college and 62% completing a 4 year degree in 6 years.

I've wondered about this -- I have to imagine the incredibly low barriers to entry contribute to the low graduation rate.

Iristheangel

TechGromit wrote: »

The college is unrated and lists a graduation rate of only 14%. Compare this with a 59% graduation rate with a 4 year college and 62% completing a 4 year degree in 6 years.

it's a non-profit so probably not a ton of people raking in obscene amounts of cash.

Also the graduation rate is 49%. The google link you checkec (College Factual) isn't updated and it even says on the right side of the page that WGU has let them know that their overall graduation rate is 49% which is slightly higher than the norm.
https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/western-governors-university/academic-life/graduation-and-retention/
https://www.wgu.edu/tuition_financial_aid/brief_guide

Also, I suspect that the compenency-based system doesn't really work well with the ranking model metholody. You can read more on how rankings work here: https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings

Iristheangel

mgeoffriau wrote: »

I've wondered about this -- I have to imagine the incredibly low barriers to entry contribute to the low graduation rate.

Graduation rate is actually higher than the norm. The average in the US is 48.4% and WGU is at 49%. It stepped up in the last 5 years to vet potential students a bit more due to restrictions for federal funding if they didn't have a certain graduation rate.

JoJoCal19

So interesting timing of this thread and discussion. After graduating from WGU last July, and obviously going and updating my resume, LinkedIn and Indeed profiles with my shiny new MSISA, I actually noticed the contacts I was getting dropped off pretty significantly, and the contacts from internal recruiters at big name companies (think MS, AMEX, Citi, etc etc) dried up completely. At the time I was looking to hastily leave my then current job and started apping tons of jobs. I had pretty much ZERO response. At all. Weird I thought. I've never had that happen before. I wondered why my contacts for jobs dropped so much, and I was only getting recruiters who barely spoke english contacting me for 3mo+ contract jobs across the country. I eventually did get contacted by a company I'd never heard of and it turned out to be a great opportunity, so I went forward and got the job last December. Only mentioned my MSISA in passing. After that, as I always do, I keep my profiles active, still no good contacts or hits. Fast forward to about a month or so ago, in chatting with another forum member with a WGU degree, they mentioned they'd taken it off their profiles and that I should try doing so as well. So I took the MSISA off of my profiles about a month ago, and I've noticed after a couple of weeks I'm starting to get quality recruiter contacts again, as well as internal recruiters for more well known companies. I cannot say for certain if adding the WGU MSISA had anything to do with the dropoff in contacts for jobs and the lack of response to applications, both of which are not normal for me, or that the uptick in quality contacts have anything to do with taking it back off, but this also is not the first I've heard of a similar type of situation.

I do want to make perfectly clear that I think WGU is a great option for people either trying to change careers or break into IT, or people who need it solely for ticking a checkbox. In hindsight it was not the best choice for me and MY situation. I was also accepted into Norwich's MSISA program at the time, and I think that would have been a better choice for where I was at in my career and what I was trying to do. I am somewhat glad I didn't go with Norwich and pay the $30k as my goals have changed it would honestly be a waste. I'm going instate to USF for a MS in Cybersecurity to pop on my resume instead, and even with spending on the WGU degree and this one, it's still only like 2/3 of Norwich's cost.

Iristheangel

@JojoCal - Haven't had that experience. Prior to getting my CCIE and RIGHT after graduating with my MSISA, I had several high profile companies trying to poach me: CDW, WWT, Presidio, DiData, Cisco, etc. I ended up at Cisco. Still ended up getting dozens of emails weekly prior to getting the CCIE. It really just depends on what field you're in, experience, location, economy, etc. Your degree isn't the sum of your CV and nor should it be. I know folks who went to ITT Tech, DeVry, UoP, etc and they're still getting tons of job offers and people reaching out to them daily. I would have a hard time believing that WGU's reputation is poorer than a for-profit school.

JoJoCal19

@Iris, yeah I cannot say for sure that the WGU degree was the reason for what I experienced, it's just based on what limited experience I have, I feel it's best to leave it off. I do think the field and type of position, as well as experience do play a part in it. That's why I think for me it was the wrong choice, based on where I'm at in my career, and what my goals were. I definitely think WGU fits other people's needs a lot better though.

EngRob

@JojoCal19 - I was hired at one of the big name companies you mentioned while attending WGU. They had no issue with it.

EnderWiggin

Maybe the recruiters saw the MS and thought "This person is going to want too much money, I'm not going to waste my time."

Complete guess based on no evidence, but that's what I'd tell myself, that they're too intimidated

PJ_Sneakers

I saw an increase in recruiter activity after adding WGU to my profile. The BS and MS are both listed. It could be regional? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

All anecdotal, really.

PJ_Sneakers

Here's another take on the debacle from Forbes.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelhorn/2017/09/25/government-accountability-goes-unaccountable-chilling-wgus-innovation-engine/#719bbdee723b

But I guess to be clear, Forbes does sponsor the business school at Ashford University, so it's not like they don't have a vested interest in online education.

The audit ludicrously concludes this, however, on the basis of reviewing WGU’s course descriptions, not actually observing how students learned, interacted with instructors, and progressed through courses. The analysis is akin to the inspector general auditing a lecture class at Yale University by simply picking up a copy of a syllabus and noticing that students are not required to attend lectures nor does the syllabus describe any of the interactions that the instructor and students will have.

--chris--

TechGromit wrote: »

I'm in the wrong line of business, maybe I should open an online school. 700 million dollars over two years is 350 million per year, at $2,850 per course, that's 112,000 courses. Each course is 6 months long, that comes out to 28,000 students, this puts on par with some of the largest universities in the country by student body. Actually the college lists a 2017 student body size as 70,000. Must get pretty crowded in there one campus building. Obviously this is only an online school, so overhead is low, they must make a killing.

The college is unrated and lists a graduation rate of only 14%. Compare this with a 59% graduation rate with a 4 year college and 62% completing a 4 year degree in 6 years.

My schools grad rate is 9.4%. Also one of the better known schools from Michigan...where did you find the numbers above? I pretty much thought that grad rates for most 2 & 4 year schools were relatively low.

--chris--

PJ_Sneakers wrote: »

Here's another take on the debacle from Forbes.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelhorn/2017/09/25/government-accountability-goes-unaccountable-chilling-wgus-innovation-engine/#719bbdee723b

But I guess to be clear, Forbes does sponsor the business school at Ashford University, so it's not like they don't have a vested interest in online education.

Forbes and their anti-adblock BS....so from what I gather, the IGO doesn't like that WGU lacks a formal "must attend" policy for lectures or community based learning events?

MashoTG

I'm still going to attend, they nailed that rebuttal in the video they posted on their website.

josephandre

PJ_Sneakers wrote: »

I saw an increase in recruiter activity after adding WGU to my profile. The BS and MS are both listed. It could be regional? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

All anecdotal, really.

pretty much. the idea of getting less contacts because of your masters than you did prior to it is really ridiculous. a lot of weird thoughts bounce around peoples heads

TechGromit

--chris-- wrote: »

My schools grad rate is 9.4%. Also one of the better known schools from Michigan...where did you find the numbers above? I pretty much thought that grad rates for most 2 & 4 year schools were relatively low.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University

This is where I pulled my information from, it's true I didn't try to verify this information from other sources, but I'm always highly suspicious of numbers from someone trying to sell you services (ie the official school website), I like to verify there claims against other sources.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianahembree/2017/08/10/western-governors-university-the-best-kept-secret-in-online-colleges/2/#30fc85bf4cc8

This source says the graduation rate is 41%, that's a pretty big delta from the official school's site claiming 49%.

As for the statistics, it all depends on how your counting the numbers, for example I took a pre-calculus course summer class at a State College in preparation for going directly into Calculus at a County College school, I was a first time student at the State school and never graduated from there, do I count against the schools graduation numbers?

Iristheangel

TechGromit wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University

This is where I pulled my information from, it's true I didn't try to verify this information from other sources, but I'm always highly suspicious of numbers from someone trying to sell you services (ie the official school website), I like to verify there claims against other sources.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianahembree/2017/08/10/western-governors-university-the-best-kept-secret-in-online-colleges/2/#30fc85bf4cc8

This source says the graduation rate is 41%, that's a pretty big delta from the official school's site claiming 49%.

As for the statistics, it all depends on how your counting the numbers, for example I took a pre-calculus course summer class at a State College in preparation for going directly into Calculus at a County College school, I was a first time student at the State school and never graduated from there, do I count against the schools graduation numbers?

The source that Wikipedia was quoting was College Scorecard which has had it's own controversy but it also is only citing "first-time college students ever."

As far as the second link you provided, it doesn't cite it's sources RE: graduation rate but it is quick to point out that College Navigator incorrectly cites the graduation rate as it only counts first-time full-time students - not factoring in any students who spent time at another school at some point. That's like giving the graduation rate of a small small small subset of the student population as I would wager the majority of the students are adult learners and have attempted college at some time in the past. I would technically have not counted as a graduate in those numbers as I had been to college prior to WGU.

I count graduation as someone who received a degree from the school in which they ended. WGU would not be as great of a school for younger kids with less discipline who never went to college before - if we factor only those enrollees into the graduation numbers and forget the vast majority of folks who are adult learners with prior college experience, the numbers would probably get vastly skewed

TLeTourneau

Necropost!!!

From https://www.christenseninstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/WGU-Final.pdf:

"WGU has struggled to fit into a regulatory framework designed foranother era. The federal law that governed higher education, the HigherEducation Act (HEA), made no mention of competency-based education,and financial aid disbursements linked to ‘credit hours’ which definededucation in units time (i.e. hours and semesters) rather than metricsaround learning, such as competencies. The regulatory framework forcedWGU into bureaucratic gymnastics to demonstrate that its programs fitrequirements for federal financial aid programs.

The HEA’s rules governing online programs were even more problematic.Written in 1992, the language defining ‘distance education’ aimed todescribe institutions who sent coursework to students through the mailin the 1980’s. To be eligible for federal financial aid programs, the HEArequired distance education providers to ensure students had “regularand substantive interaction with instructors.”

In fall 2017, the Office of the Inspector General of the U.S. Departmentof Education (OIG) had completed an audit of WGU and ruled thatdespite achieving strong student outcomes, WGU had run afoul ofthese regulations. WGU argued that it provided 24/7 access to courseinstructors and required weekly interaction with program mentors.However, the OIG countered that WGU’s deconstructed faculty modeldid not fit the definition of instructor, which the law did not define. Itrecommended that WGU be required to return $713 million in federalfinancial aid funds—the largest fine in the history of the department.

The Secretary of the Department of Education, Betsy DeVos, is expectedto overturn the OIG’s ruling, and in the interim WGU is continuing toconduct business as usual.(41) The audit tells far more about the challengesin regulating innovation—and the difficulties of fitting innovative modelsinto existing regulations(42)—than it does about any wrongdoing or deficitat WGU. Such challenges are typical for Disruptive Innovations, whichoften fit like a square peg in a round regulatory hole."

gespenstern

TLeTourneau wrote: »

The Secretary of the Department of Education, Betsy DeVos, is expectedto overturn the OIG’s ruling, and in the interim WGU is continuing toconduct business as usual.

I hope she pulls this off. WGU, while the quality of at least their IT security program may not be top-notch, overall their model is decent and very good for the money they ask.

Full online, certs and acceleration with affordable tuition costs.

DatabaseHead

You really can't beat the price......

Daneil3144

This school does get a lot of negative press....

If you mention it on r/itcareerquestions you'll get downvoted to hell...

TLeTourneau

Daneil3144 wrote: »

This school does get a lot of negative press....

If you mention it on r/itcareerquestions you'll get downvoted to hell...

Beyond the OIG thing last year I haven't really seen anything negative in the media. Has there been something else?

I guess I don't consider downvotes on reddit to be negative press.

Danielm7

Nah there are a few people on that subreddit who are 100% against any online school and will argue and downvote anything that isn't a local B&M. I wouldn't sweat them.