Thoughts on the course list for this "Network Security" Diploma?

LarryTR

There's also Hodges University's UPower program. Similar to WGU in that it's self-paced, but you don't walk away with certs as part of your study efforts. But you do get a degree. https://www.hodges.edu/academics/academicprograms/upower.aspx
Even though tuition is similar to WGU, since you don't get certs as part of the program, it's actually more expensive in the long-run since you have to pay for the certs out of your own pocket and get them on your own time...if you want them.

Keep in mind self-paced learning isn't for everyone. It seems that the vast majority of students who enroll in and actually complete these programs at WGU (and presumably with Hodges, too) have a good bit of experience already and a lot of discipline and drive to "git 'er done".

Bobby Axelrod

LarryTR wrote: »

Many colleges do offer what they call undergraduate "diploma" or "certificate" programs. They are not degrees, rather more like trade school programs where you get a "certificate of completion". When you think about it, that's all a diploma really is...a certificate that says you completed something. So yes, a paper degree can also be called a diploma, yet a "diploma program" is never a degree. Just keep that in mind. I think schools use the word "diploma" because it sounds more valuable. When, in fact, it's just a certificate of completion. LOL.

Bold 1: Also, sometimes (but not always), these certificates do not require you learn anything or get a grade, rather you just have to be there/go through the course material and maybe take quizzes. Even if you fail/don't learn anything, you still get that "certificate of completion" lol. Because you DID complete the course. Whether or not you earned anything is irrelevant to them. Ed2Go/Cengage career programs come to mind. But the same could be said for college courses, I guess. If you get a C or a D, did you really learn anything or enough? Yet, a C is passing at most colleges for most degrees and even a D is passing for General Ed. courses.

Anyway...

Bold 2: Also, just keep in keep in mind that 99% of the time the courses in these certificate or diploma programs are not "for credit" and therefore cannot usually be transferred to a college/university to satisfy credit transfers. Something to think about for the future if you do decide to go the certificate/diploma route.

As to whether having this "diploma" or certificate would help you get your foot in the door on the tech side of IT, that is hard to answer since there are many factors such as where you will be applying for jobs. It depends on the IT market in that region and then also with each specific employer. Having a BS degree (non-IT) with IT certs might work for some companies in some regions, but not in others.

Bold 3.1: If you plan on getting into tech in the same local area where the school is situated, you may want to ask IT tech hiring managers what they think of that program as well as the school itself.

Bold 3.2: You should also do some research online for reviews of the school. Although, take these with a grain of salt as drop-outs have louder mouths than those who actually completed the program.

That said, it could help if you just post the name of the school.

One thing that worries me is your use of the word "career school". We have a couple of those in my area. They are VERY expensive because they are not just private, but for-profit. They offer both certificate courses and AAS degrees and they cost WAY more than a community college degree!!! One has a very bad reputation while the other one has a somewhat decent reputation in the local area. One of the problems with these career schools is that you go to class on what I call a "high school schedule". Meaning, you have to go from about 8AM to 3PM M-F. Much like vo-tech. There's nothing wrong with this, but it can be impossible to do for working folks.

Bold 4: Point is, you may find that, given you already have a degree, it would be cheaper to get a BS degree in IT from a regionally accredited college or university. You could transfer in all or most of your General Ed classes you already took. If you do look into another college degree, make sure it's a REGIONALLY accredit college, not a nationally accredited college. You won't likely come out with certs, but the degree may hold more value than this "diploma". Again, it all depends, though.

Bold 5: What you posted isn't really a syllabus, it's just a basic outline of each section of the program. A syllabus would have a bit more detail as to what students will be taught and expected to learn, specifically. It usually also tells you what books or other resources you are required to buy for the course. At least this is what a syllabus was when I was enrolled in a state University over a decade ago.

At any rate, I would also look into what others have said and see if there is any way that your current employer can help you transition into a tech role within their company. That would be easy and convenient since they are a tech company and you already work there. You also might want to ask some tech managers at your company what they would think of if they came across a person with your experience, your degree and that diploma certificate from that school. That might give you some idea if it's worth paying for that program. This would also start a dialog with the tech managers that could lead to a transition to the tech side of the company. Or they could just look at you as somewhat of a thread. Things always have a positive and a negative side lol.

This is a very informative comment. Thank you for taking the time to respond, I do appreciate it. I'll do my best to respond to a number of comments you made, however I'll likely not be able to touch on all.

Bold 1: Haha. Yeah I don't see much value in those type of programs where grades aren't relative. As for the program I'm considering, students are required to maintain an average above 70% or they will be removed from the program ... which seems high to me, however I think it's a fair ask. So it would appear (to me at least) that they do care if the student is learning and succeeding in class.

Bold 2: This is a very valid point and to be honest I never really thought about that. As of now I don't foresee myself getting another diploma, so not being able to transfer credits is not the end of the world, however it's definitely still a point worth considering.

Bold 3.1 & 3.2: I've been fortunate enough to leverage my current "network" and arrange to sit down with a couple local executives with cyber security roles/backgrounds. They expressed similar views, which was they view the college in a positive light for being able to produce competent (entry-level) staff quicker than the standard 4-year diploma program. They also mentioned the value of hands-on experience, which this program has. So while my sample size isn't large (3), IMO it was encouraging to learn their thoughts. I've also had the opportunity to talk with some GOV't HR staff; most weren't familiar with the school or program, however all of them essentially said I'd most likely be interviewed upon completion of the program as they are searching for IT security staff.

As for reviews on the school/program itself, thanks to LinkedIn I was able to talk with 10-15 students who completed the program. It was promising to see nearly all of them were employed, working in what I assume is an entry-level role that's related to the program (networking, network security, etc.). Their comments about the program we're good too. Essentially, the general consensus is the program itself gives you the tools to land an entry-level job, however you need to work hard to truly understand the concepts/practices being taught. Additionally, it's on you to find a job afterwards - don't count on the college to line up prospective employers for you. The latter being a bit obvious to me, but all-in-all it was encouraging to hear positive comments. I honestly don't think anyone had something negative to say, but who know's if that would be the case if my sample size was larger.

Also, for those wondering the school itself is "Willis College".

Bold 4: I've reached out to one highly regarded college that's local, still waiting to hear back. Great advice though. Also, what's the significance of a regionally accredited college over a nationally accredited college? I understand the importance of regional accreditation in the United States, however for Canada I'm under the impression there was only nationally accredited schools recognized by CICIC. Regardless, it must me accredited provincially too as the government I reside in (Ontario) has an organization called "Ontario Student Assistance Program" (OSAP) which essentially provides approved full-time students with loans/grants for recognized/accredited school/program. Long story short, the program/school we're discussing is recognized by OSAP. I've already been approved for a grant & loan too which is nice.

Bold 5: What I posted was simply just a cliff notes version of the program. They go into much more detail regarding the specifics of what we will learn/do in each course, I just didn't post it as it's an 8 page .PDF file. I don't have any information on the required books/resources though, which is a great point. I'll reach out to see if it's available. I'm assuming that's something they usually hand out closer to the program start date, however I know what usually happens when I assume something...

Bobby Axelrod

LarryTR wrote: »

There's also Hodges University's UPower program. Similar to WGU in that it's self-paced, but you don't walk away with certs as part of your study efforts. But you do get a degree. https://www.hodges.edu/academics/academicprograms/upower.aspx
Even though tuition is similar to WGU, since you don't get certs as part of the program, it's actually more expensive in the long-run since you have to pay for the certs out of your own pocket and get them on your own time...if you want them.

Keep in mind self-paced learning isn't for everyone. It seems that the vast majority of students who enroll in and actually complete these programs at WGU (and presumably with Hodges, too) have a good bit of experience already and a lot of discipline and drive to "git 'er done".

I was looking into WGU actually. It seems a lot of the forum members for TechExams are familiar with WGU, and from what I've seen most experiences are positive. My concern with WGU is that they aren't recognized as an accredited educational institution in Canada. The issue with that is it complicates any job openings with GOV't agencies as most (if not all) of the job postings I've seen set education requirements as a relevant degree/diploma from an accredited school in Canada. And while I don't know if I'll ever work for the Government, it's a door I'd rather not shut at this point in my career. There's alternative options in Canada like Athabasca University who provide online "distance" learning opportunities. At the end of the day though I prefer the traditional face-to-face style of learning, and while I'm sure I could do the whole self-paced online approach it's not my first choice.

LarryTR

The Willis College program sounds like it might have some value. Do you have any idea what the total cost of the program is? Didn't see that on their site.

gkca

The Willis College is a private career college aka a trades school and it can't grant an Ontario diploma or advanced diploma approved by the Ministry of Advanced Education and Skills Development.

Bobby Axelrod

LarryTR wrote: »

The Willis College program sounds like it might have some value. Do you have any idea what the total cost of the program is? Didn't see that on their site.

Yup - it seems pretty expensive; it's roughly $20k (CAD) all-in. Keep in mind I don't really have a reference to compare it to, but to me that's not cheap. That said I'm approved for a large grant which significantly helps with the overall cost and is the only reason I'm really considering this program. So fortunately I'm not overly concerned about the cost and in theory would walk away with minimal debt, if any.

LarryTR

Umph! That's about $16K USD. And that might not include books and god knows what other fees.
And you don't even get an AS degree. That's like the "career schools" in my area. They both want about $36K USD for an AAS degree. Community colleges can be a lot cheaper.

I dunno. It's your call. But I'd lean more toward getting a degree for that kind of dough. If Canada is anything like the USA, once you get those grants, your done. Meaning, if you do end up having to go to college to a degree to satisfy HR requirements, it's all out of pocket or you have to get loans. Unless, of course, your employer will pay for it.

Just to be clear, I personally put little value on degrees in a field like IT. Personally, I think most IT jobs are trades & are best learned in a trade school/vo-tech school. Problem is, the way this market is going in the USA, a degree is a requirement in many places and I'd bet Canada will be the same way if it isn't already.

Bobby Axelrod

gkca wrote: »

The Willis College is a private career college aka a trades school and it can't grant an Ontario diploma or advanced diploma approved by the Ministry of Advanced Education and Skills Development.

Can you expand on that? It's a bit confusing to me for a number of reasons, and FWIW I'm definitely not claiming you're wrong..

I know the school itself (Willis College) and the specific program we're discussing in this thread is approved by the Ministry of Advanced Education and Skills Development (I'll refer to them as MAESD from here on out),.. or at least it appears that way due to MAESD's affiliation with the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities (Let's call these guys MTCU for short). MTCU has approved both Willis College and the program we're discussing, I know this because I've seen both the MTCU registration certificate and licensing number.

Also, the Ministry of Advanced Education & Skills Development (MAESD) is the same department who oversees the Ontario Student Assistance Program (OSAP); If MAESD approved Willis College & their program for OSAP funding, why would they not approve the diploma one gets for graduating from the same program/school?

Again, I'm not suggesting you're wrong, I'm just hoping you can expand on your comment and touch on the points I brought up.

Bobby Axelrod

LarryTR wrote: »

Umph! That's about $16K USD. And that might not include books and god knows what other fees.
And you don't even get an AS degree. That's like the "career schools" in my area. They both want about $36K USD for an AAS degree. Community colleges can be a lot cheaper.

I dunno. It's your call. But I'd lean more toward getting a degree for that kind of dough. If Canada is anything like the USA, once you get those grants, your done. Meaning, if you do end up having to go to college to a degree to satisfy HR requirements, it's all out of pocket or you have to get loans. Unless, of course, your employer will pay for it.

Just to be clear, I personally put little value on degrees in a field like IT. Personally, I think most IT jobs are trades & are best learned in a trade school/vo-tech school. Problem is, the way this market is going in the USA, a degree is a requirement in many places and I'd bet Canada will be the same way if it isn't already.

It's definitely not spare change. Fortunately that cost does include books and any other additional fees. The only area that's a bit grey to me when it comes to the cost is whether or not there's tax. That's easy to figure out though, and your comment made me think of think of that question so thanks for bringing it up.

The grants and loans from OSAP seem to be a bit different than what you're talking about in the USA. In 2015 I had received OSAP funding during the final year of my undergrad degree, which was the first year I was eligible for OSAP funding. So I've had OSAP in the past for another program, and then I've already been approved for OSAP funding for this program, so it appears there's no one-and-done rule in Canada? Or I might have slipped through the cracks, you never know with the GOV't

At the end of the day my interest in gaining an approved/recognized "diploma" is simply so I can market it and myself to HR/recruiters when I'm looking for employment. I think the certifications and practical experience gained through labs will be the true asset here, but in theory having a diploma should help me land a few interviews where I can refer back to the certs/experience/skills/knowledge...etc.

LarryTR

I'm wondering if what gkca means is that they cannot award a degree. If that's the case, we already know that the program you are looking at is not a degree. Just a certificate (at least that's what it appears to be).

If in Canada you all call everything a diploma, that can get rather confusing. I have heard people in the USA call the physical paper one gets after they earn a degree a "diploma", but most people seem to just call it a degree. In the USA we tend to mainly use the word "diploma" when referring to the "paper" one gets after completing high school or trade school. Or that could just be in my area of the country, not sure.

gkca

Bobby Axelrod wrote: »

At the end of the day my interest in gaining an approved/recognized "diploma" is simply so I can market it and myself to HR/recruiters when I'm looking for employment. I think the certifications and practical experience gained through labs will be the true asset here, but in theory having a diploma should help me land a few interviews where I can refer back to the certs/experience/skills/knowledge...etc.

Of course you can market yourself with that "diploma", but the problem is that small shops don't really care about your diploma or degree or certification while larger private and public sector employers do.
Also keep in mind that larger organizations tend to have graded job hierarchy, where you're required to have a certain level of education and experience, so you would be severely limited in your options and promotion potential in comparison to your peers with diploma or advanced diploma or bachelors or masters, so let's say your glass ceiling would be a senior technician after a few years, while another guy with a 4 year degree and same experience level would be a senior engineer and someone with a masters could easily get to the management position.

LarryTR wrote: »

I'm wondering if what gkca means is that they cannot award a degree. If that's the case, we already know that the program you are looking at is not a degree. Just a certificate (at least that's what it appears to be).

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

Bobby Axelrod

LarryTR wrote: »

I'm wondering if what gkca means is that they cannot award a degree. If that's the case, we already know that the program you are looking at is not a degree. Just a certificate (at least that's what it appears to be).

If in Canada you all call everything a diploma, that can get rather confusing. I have heard people in the USA call the physical paper one gets after they earn a degree a "diploma", but most people seem to just call it a degree. In the USA we tend to mainly use the word "diploma" when referring to the "paper" one gets after completing high school or trade school. Or that could just be in my area of the country, not sure.

Ahh! Okay, this all makes more sense. In that case you're right, this program doesn't award a degree.

I agree 100%. Using the terms "Degree", "Diploma" and "Certificate" makes everything way more complex than it needs to be - especially if they don't hold the same context in the USA as they do in Canada. In Canada, at least based off my experience, there's a distinct difference between the three. This is why I keep referring to it as a Diploma, not a certificate. From my understanding there's typically two major distinctions between all three; (1) the volume of content covered and (2) the length of time to complete the program. For instance:

"Degree" is often interpreted as an undergrad (or a masters too I guess). It's a piece of paper awarded to students once they complete a program that's offered by a college/university, usually taking 3-4 years to complete (4 years being the more common length of the two).

"Diploma" is more often associated with Colleges than Universities. It's a piece of paper awarded to students when they complete a program that's anywhere between 1-2 years in length. In the past diploma programs seemed to focus a bit more on hands-on learning than your typical "Degree" program, however I'm not sure if that's still the case.

Meanwhile a "Certificate" is typically used to describe a piece of paper students receive once they complete a program that is much smaller than a "Degree" or Diploma". It usually takes less than a year to complete.

TLDR - A "Degree" program = 3-4 years to complete; a "Diploma" program = 1-2 years to complete; and a "Certificate" program = less than 1 year to complete. All three give you a piece of paper once completed, the difference being how long the program takes to get said paper. There's exceptions to every rule, but this is the perceived differences in Canada - at least based on what I've seen/who I've spoken with.

LarryTR

From what I understand, here in the USA, students who get IT degrees at colleges and universities (AS or BS) still get hands-on, but often you can get more hands-on at a technical school or career school, whether it is a degree or certificate (or diploma). Butt he problem with a lot of private trade schools is they are often for-profit and VERY expensive compared to community colleges.

As I have said, I personally believe most of the lower-level IT jobs are trades and should not require a degree. There is no reason to have a college degree (AS or BS) to work in the these positions. But that is what employers are requiring (in the USA)...at least the larger employers. Let's face it, working on the front lines of IT isn't really much different than a plumber or an electrician. I'm not belittling those who work in the lower-level IT jobs at all. There is nothing wrong at all with being a tradesman. Actually, I respect tradesman who really know their stuff. And you can make some decent money in trades, too. Way better than working retail or hotels or restaurants, even as a manager.

But I digress.

Bjcheung77

I would focus on three things: 1) Experience, 2) Degree (if you want an extra one or not), 3) Industry Certifications - This diploma program will give you "hands-on experience" vs studying/testing. The OP/Original Poster already has a degree, if they didn't, I would have recommended them the exact same thing I recommend a few people (see post 31 in this thread, I linked it to the Competency-Based Education providers - WGU, Hodges, Brandman as they're non-profit).

With your degree in Business, you can gain the experience and certifications you will need to get into your desired "junior analyst" role as you mentioned with this IT Diploma, I would use it also as a stepping stone to a management position later. Since you already have your degree, your main focus should be the experience and the certifications are just the "gravy or icing" to the experience you gain.

Lastly, $X amount seems expensive now, but think of it this way, you're paying that amount now for a better paying job and rewarding career later. That ROI may help you make more money in the following years to come, you may even make that amount after the very first two/three years of working in your IT field and if you are lucky, once you hit upper echelon management level - it'll look like peanuts or chump change!

Bobby Axelrod

Bjcheung77 wrote: »

I would focus on three things: 1) Experience, 2) Degree (if you want an extra one or not), 3) Industry Certifications - This diploma program will give you "hands-on experience" vs studying/testing. The OP/Original Poster already has a degree, if they didn't, I would have recommended them the exact same thing I recommend a few people (see post 31 in this thread, I linked it to the Competency-Based Education providers - WGU, Hodges, Brandman as they're non-profit).

With your degree in Business, you can gain the experience and certifications you will need to get into your desired "junior analyst" role as you mentioned with this IT Diploma, I would use it also as a stepping stone to a management position later. Since you already have your degree, your main focus should be the experience and the certifications are just the "gravy or icing" to the experience you gain.

Lastly, $X amount seems expensive now, but think of it this way, you're paying that amount now for a better paying job and rewarding career later. That ROI may help you make more money in the following years to come, you may even make that amount after the very first two/three years of working in your IT field and if you are lucky, once you hit upper echelon management level - it'll look like peanuts or chump change!

I actually had that exact same thought; I could either put the money I'd be using on this education towards my TFSA (Canada's version of the Roth IRA) and "gamble" on the market OR invest in myself. From an ROI point of view, the investment in myself seemed like the clear winner.

Thanks Bjcheung and LarryTR for your most recent comments - along with everyone else who took the time to share their thoughts. I found all the comments to be incredibly helpful and truth be told they helped me make my decision. I start in March! Hopefully this thread is helpful to someone else in a similar position to me, but regardless it certainly helped me.

Cheers everyone! I'll see you all around on these boards I'm sure