One thing you can do to get a great job in IT

DatabaseHead

You are really struggling to see the big picture.

I noticed all your references are about you. This isn't a question about one person, this is more along the lines of IT as a whole. Development, Networking etc, I called that out earlier. You refer to that as moving goal post I refer to that as comprehension.

So after 100 paragraphs your answer is experience?

Okay that's fine, several people have stated that and I would agree that experience is key. Certs, Degrees etc.... I was looking at it from another angle, being void of experience but I didn't call that out so fair enough..... I would of stated experience too.

Ismaeljrp

This thread got interesting real quick. Gonna make some popcorn and be right back.

Ismaeljrp

To be fair, the topic of the thread was extremely wide open for debate.

I respect all opinions and would like to share my own.

It depends.

Bye!

Iristheangel

DatabaseHead wrote: »

You are really struggling to see the big picture.

I noticed all your references are about you. This isn't a question about one person, this is more along the lines of IT as a whole. Development, Networking etc, I called that out earlier. You refer to that as moving goal post I refer to that as comprehension.

So after 100 paragraphs your answer is experience?

Oversimplifying it but you're doing that to patronize so I digress.

As far as only relating to me, I actually read your Quora post - pointed out the flaws in said logic and also took the time to research average salaries for certain parts of IT. I used my own experiences as anectodal stories but also mentioned that many others on this forum have similar stories.

I think the problem you're struggling with is that IT as a whole doesn't necessarily get the best ROI on a CS degree. As I stated many times, there's too many types of different IT careers out there. You're really not understanding the crowd you're talking to as a whole here. You're on a site called "techexams." Needless to say, a lot of folks here will utilize certifications heavily to get that ROI for less upfront costs and found different routes than degrees. I know of several admins on this page who are getting paid well above what a Stanford grad would get paid without a degree. They also have a strong automation game.

You can get mad or snippy because I don't agree with you but I've calmly laid out my points and dissected yours. You can continue to be snippy, say I'm narrowminded, complain about the length of my posts, try to get me pigeonholed so you can debate some semantic reasons, etc because I don't agree that a top 25 college CS degree is a silver bullet of ROI in the industry as a whole and I've calmly laid out my points why. Be upset or emotional if you want - there's not use for me to waste my time on that - but if you're down for an intellectual conversation about it, let me know. I'm not one who thinks whoever has the last word "wins" some arbitrary gold star on the internet so if you're game for having a logical and non-emotional conversation, I'll continue with you. If not, you can have that last word. It doesn't matter to me.


@ismaeljrp - Can I have some? Extra butter? No extra salt needed

DatabaseHead

My original post.....

One thing you can do to get a great job in IT

Just one thing, not two or three. Just one....

I'll start: A STEM degree, Math, Sciences, Engineering, Computer Science.

IMO you get a heavy hitter from a top 25 Uni in their respective domains, you'll never need to get a certification or advanced degree.



The spirit of the post was to post your own opinion, not to debate or attack another. You clearly didn't pick up on that went into your normal attack mode. Kill it if you don't understand it or agree with it. Not to worry though your SOP has been duly noted....

Read the post one more time.

One thing you can do to get a great IT job.

Is your one thing is to go work at a SOC, NOC or Help Desk and get cert?

What one thing can you do to get a great IT job. What one thing? What's your answer? I'm assuming certs or experience.

Iristheangel

Holy bold! Calm down, Database. It's not an attack to have a debate about things. It's actually quite healthy for people to challenge other's viewpoints. That's how we learn or understand each other better. Like Ismaeljrp said, it was a pretty open-ended thread and, honestly, it felt like a few times you were changing what you were asking for which is why I posted about moving goal posts above.

As far as my opinion, I pointed it out many times above. Please re-read for the sake of brevity.

hiddenknight821

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Just one thing, not two or three. Just one....

I'll start: A STEM degree, Math, Sciences, Engineering, Computer Science.

IMO you get a heavy hitter from a top 25 Uni in their respective domains, you'll never need to get a certification or advanced degree.

Just based off this and nothing else I've read further down the thread, I'm convinced this is very true. I'd like to believe most of those graduates came from money if they were able to graduate without too much student loan debts.

DatabaseHead

Iristheangel wrote: »

Holy bold! Calm down, Database. It's not an attack to have a debate about things. It's actually quite healthy for people to challenge other's viewpoints. That's how we learn or understand each other better. Like Ismaeljrp said, it was a pretty open-ended thread and, honestly, it felt like a few times you were changing what you were asking for which is why I posted about moving goal posts above.

As far as my opinion, I pointed it out many times above. Please re-read for the sake of brevity.

First of all I want to state this because I feel it's important. We are good and your opinion is valid and make sense to me.

I am from a BI background and you are from Network - Security. There is a delta, all good. You know your space I know mine. I honestly love the CBT's the best, cost and effectiveness.

Anyway, good discussion to be honest you are the only one who debates me, which I find refreshing lol.

Have a nice evening.

PS I am still pushing my daughter to get a degree in Mathematics from a top 25 school. As a parent I believe this degree will be one of the best you can hold in the future. Just my opinion.....

And I have been saving a ton of money to get her through. Now my soon to be 10 year old son, I might need to start a Patreon account..

jamshid666

DatabaseHead wrote: »

So what are you proposing?

Jumping on the help desk and getting some certs?

I got some Microsoft certifications and computer experience while I was in the military, and I was able to bypass the help desk and go straight to a sysadmin role, and made it to senior sysadmin shortly after once I proved my skills. Without a degree, I have continually advanced in my position and salary, to include bonuses and stock options. I'm finally going back to get a degree, not because it will help much at this point in my career, but mainly for self-gratification, and I'm getting an affordable degree as opposed to some insanely priced one. From my experience, I find certifications to be the most important to get your foot in the door in this industry, and continuing to add certifications as well as networking with the right people to be the best path to success. And never burn bridges, as you never know when someone that you've impressed in your past may call you out of the blue to offer you an amazing position.

dhay13

In some situations the education is the best route. I didn't come to the IT field by choice. I was a laborer in a steel mill and was forced into a career change due to injury at about 33 years old. After a couple of years of battling with my employer and work comp I was ready to figure out my next step. Knowing I would need a few years of schooling I had to figure out what field would be easiest to get into at 38-40 years old. I figured IT would be the path of least resistance. I started my college courses in 2005 (in 2003 I was looking to pay somebody to install a new DVD drive in my computer because I was afraid to even take the side panel off my computer...true story). I NEEDED the education. Sure I could have built a lab and figured it out but it would have taken me way too long to go that route. So I racked up a bunch of student loan debt but learned enough to get my first IT job.I wasn't the average IT person.

For the average IT person I think experience is far more important than education or certs. I went yesterday to a local high school to 'judge/grade' seniors tests. These were for a MS Office cert but there was a student that was interested in a career in the security sector. I spoke with him for about 1/2 hour after he was done with his test (and actually told him about TE so maybe he will show up here). He has already been accepted to Pitt but I told him to learn Python and get comfortable with Security Onion and Kali Linux for starters.

Anyway, the degree will get you past the HR filters but the experience will get you the job. The only exception is attitude and personality. Like was said earlier, a bad attitude from Harvard will not make it past me. A good attitude with a little experience will.

My advice? If you have a solid foundation in IT then the education is optional. Work hard and put in the effort and you can make it. The education certainly doesn't hurt (other than making those student loan payments every month) but isn't required. At this point in my career I really doubt any employer cares where my degree came from. Not even sure they would even care if I didn't have a degree. I know I would hire the best candidate whether they had a degree or not. I don't think that would even weigh on my decision if it is a mid-level position. Entry level positions would be different. The education would hold some weight but not a necessity. Another thing to look for is any potential attitude issues of an 'Ivy' leaguer. Will a Harvard grad have an issue taking direction from a Sr. member with no degree or a degree from a lesser known school like I went to? Not stereotyping but I have seen similar situations people that felt they knew more or were better because they went to a more well known school. This person was very difficult to work with and would not take direction or advice. He didn't last long.

Blucodex

Find a mentor.

alan2308

DatabaseHead wrote: »

What one thing can you do to get a great IT job. What one thing? What's your answer? I'm assuming certs or experience.

Here's the thing though. Experience is something that you can't just do. It comes with time, but if you don't have it, all you can do is wait. I can go get a cert in a reasonable time frame. So while we all know experience trumps all, a cert is the one thing you can actually do. I've gotten more calls because I have the CISSP than I've gotten because I have a masters in IA.

Jon_Cisco

It seems to me that a degree from a top college would help just about anyone. However not everyone can get into a top program or has the time and money required for it. If your financially independent or fresh out of high school and taking your parents cash then go for the degree. If your doing a career change it just might not be practical. With that said I think the one thing you can do is make sure you are good at your job. This will make you valuable to the employers that are going to hire you. What you are not discussing in the earlier threads is why top institutions provide good job offers. There is a lot that goes into that but one factor is that they are competitive and there is a level of expectation from the successful graduates.

DatabaseHead

alan2308 wrote: »

Here's the thing though. Experience is something that you can't just do. It comes with time, but if you don't have it, all you can do is wait. I can go get a cert in a reasonable time frame. So while we all know experience trumps all, a cert is the one thing you can actually do. I've gotten more calls because I have the CISSP than I've gotten because I have a masters in IA.

CISSP is a bad example, it requires experience..... which ties back to your first comment.

Masters or in my case Bachelors in CS doesn't...

Iristheangel

CISSP would be good long term after you get that experience... I would say starting out there's a lot of security, networking, systems, linux, pen testing, virtualization, cloud, etc certifications that don't require any experience but are highly valued by the field.

nothimagain

I did 4 years in the military, got a clearance , and my first job was over 70k lol. Prolly wouldve been better if i wouldve just done the reserves and gotten the clearance. active duty sets you back a little.

Squished

Blucodex wrote: »

Find a mentor.

I'd love to do this. Easier said than done for a good one and/or one actually interested in you.

Ismaeljrp

Iristheangel wrote: »

@ismaeljrp - Can I have some? Extra butter? No extra salt needed

How does cheese flavor mixed with Cheetos sound?

Ismaeljrp

Squished wrote: »

I'd love to do this. Easier said than done for a good one and/or one actually interested in you.

I think there are many that are already providing valuable mentorship via forums/blogs/podcasts. Having one on one mentoring is great but like you said hard to find.

I'd recommend those forums/blogs/podcasts that revolve around tech, but also books like "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie, for example.

ITSec14

If I can give any advice to the next generation of tech workers...

- Don't put yourself into massive amounts of debt by going to an average University. Unless you are graduating from an elite school such as MIT, Harvard, Stanford, etc., you won't get the immediate ROI from some no name school. Elite schools are worth the money because of their alumni networks (if you can take advantage of them) and high academic reputations. If you can't get accepted into an elite school, find cheaper alternatives such as community college or schools like WGU since they are affordable, accredited and check off the box.

- Find local meetups or networking events and grow your personal network. You'd be amazed at what jobs you can get simply by knowing the right people. Others can criticize this all they want, but half the people in my office were hired simply because they used to work with someone already here. Do not underestimate the power of your connections!

DatabaseHead

Iristheangel wrote: »

CISSP would be good long term after you get that experience... I would say starting out there's a lot of security, networking, systems, linux, pen testing, virtualization, cloud, etc certifications that don't require any experience but are highly valued by the field.

In regards to security which one certification would you recommend for someone trying to get into that space. ***That doesn't require experience like the CISSP.

DatabaseHead

ITSec14 wrote: »

If I can give any advice to the next generation of tech workers...

- Don't put yourself into massive amounts of debt by going to an average University. Unless you are graduating from an elite school such as MIT, Harvard, Stanford, etc., you won't get the immediate ROI from some no name school. Elite schools are worth the money because of their alumni networks (if you can take advantage of them) and high academic reputations. If you can't get accepted into an elite school, find cheaper alternatives such as community college or schools like WGU since they are affordable, accredited and check off the box.

- Find local meetups or networking events and grow your personal network. You'd be amazed at what jobs you can get simply by knowing the right people. Others can criticize this all they want, but half the people in my office were hired simply because they used to work with someone already here. Do not underestimate the power of your connections!

I'm actually encouraging my daughter to get her Associates in Mathematics from the community college, then transferring over to a 4 year to finish up her bachelors of science.

I've basically given her the green light to focus just on school during those 2 years without paying rent or car insurance as long as those grades are up. Once she hit's the bachelors program we'll have enough to pay 1 year of school for her and she'll need to pay the last year, assuming she completes in 4 years.

It's not the best for her, but it's the most we can afford....

Iristheangel

DatabaseHead wrote: »

In regards to security which one certification would you recommend for someone trying to get into that space. ***That doesn't require experience like the CISSP.

There are a few and it all depends on what you're looking to do in security. I also wouldn't limit it to one cert either. There's several there there that require no professional experience include but not limited to:
- CompTIA Security+
- CompTIA Cybersecurity Analyst
- Many of the GIAC certifications
- OSCP
- OSWP
- OSCE
- OSEE
- OSWE
- CCNA Security
- CCNP Security
- CCIE Security
- CCNA Cyberops


etc etc etc


Note: Some of these might not be practical for someone just starting out but, as many people have stated on this thread, getting a couple will go a long ways to get your foot in the door and accumulating more over the lifetime of your career will definitely help you get a leg up. It's a pretty fast and cost effective ROI depending on the cert and industry-recognized by most employers. Not to mention it'll help with the DoD Approved 8570 Baseline if you're working for a government contractor or the government itself: https://iase.disa.mil/iawip/pages/iabaseline.aspx


P.s. Even without the required work experience for the CISSP, if you pass the exam you can still get the Associates of ISC2 which coulds towards the DoD 8570 IA baselines and still can help get that foot in the door so you can get the required experience.

thomas_

DatabaseHead wrote: »

I'm actually encouraging my daughter to get her Associates in Mathematics from the community college, then transferring over to a 4 year to finish up her bachelors of science.

I've basically given her the green light to focus just on school during those 2 years without paying rent or car insurance as long as those grades are up. Once she hit's the bachelors program we'll have enough to pay 1 year of school for her and she'll need to pay the last year, assuming she completes in 4 years.

It's not the best for her, but it's the most we can afford....

You might also want to look into CLEP tests and AP tests. Depending on what college/university she goes to, she could get credit for a lot of classes which would reduce the number of lower level courses that she needs to take. Even if she goes to a community college for two years, if she passes a CLEP test that is accepted by the college she(you) could save $200-300 per course. Let's assume the community college charges $90/credit hour. You'll being paying $270 for tuition and probably another $50 to $100 for textbooks putting the total cost for the course at between $320 - $370.

A CLEP test will usually only cost $100 - $125 and study materials will probably run you another $25 to $50 for a total of some where between $125 to $175. If she attends a University that charges $300 - $400 per credit hours the savings are even more immense.

I know self-study isn't for everyone. However if she is a self-starter and doesn't particularly enjoy sitting in class listening to a teacher read off powerpoint slides, then the CLEP tests would be a great way for you to save some money and for her to skip over some lower level classes.

DatabaseHead

thomas_ wrote: »

You might also want to look into CLEP tests and AP tests. Depending on what college/university she goes to, she could get credit for a lot of classes which would reduce the number of lower level courses that she needs to take. Even if she goes to a community college for two years, if she passes a CLEP test that is accepted by the college she(you) could save $200-300 per course. Let's assume the community college charges $90/credit hour. You'll being paying $270 for tuition and probably another $50 to $100 for textbooks putting the total cost for the course at between $320 - $370.

A CLEP test will usually only cost $100 - $125 and study materials will probably run you another $25 to $50 for a total of some where between $125 to $175. If she attends a University that charges $300 - $400 per credit hours the savings are even more immense.

I know self-study isn't for everyone. However if she is a self-starter and doesn't particularly enjoy sitting in class listening to a teacher read off powerpoint slides, then the CLEP tests would be a great way for you to save some money and for her to skip over some lower level classes.

Appreciate the follow up. I'll look into CLEP courses.

Thanks

thomas_

Somtimes I agree with Iris and sometimes I disagree with Iris, but this time I'm leaning towards her side. It does seem like you are shifting the goal posts a little from your initial post, even if your intent was to make some of the underlying assumptions of your original post clear.

One thing you can do to get a great job in IT

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Just one thing, not two or three. Just one....


I'll start: A STEM degree, Math, Sciences, Engineering, Computer Science.


IMO you get a heavy hitter from a top 25 Uni in their respective domains, you'll never need to get a certification or advanced degree.

DatabaseHead wrote: »

I'm asking on behalf of people getting into the field, whether it's some high schooler looking to join the work force or a career changer.

DatabaseHead wrote: »

I wouldn't say the quickest and easiest, the most efficient with long lasting ROI.


Taking into account like you mentioned getting "in" to a field and continuing to get return out of it throughout the life cycle of an employee.

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Hardly....


The objective of the post was, what one thing can you do for your career that will help you soup to nuts.....

DatabaseHead wrote: »

I'm working off the assumption (which I personally believe to be accurate) that if you graduate from Stanford for example with a Computer Science degree, you are going to land a high level job immediately. (3 months after graduation tops, assuming you are leveraging internships and the connections).


...(Paragraph Omitted)


One caveat to this, you are branded as a "special talent". The chances of you getting fast tracked into leadership roles are much higher with this model, than the certification model. IMO

You start off asking for "one thing you can do to get a great job in IT". Later on you clarify that you're "asking on behalf of people getting into the field, whether it's some high schooler looking to join the work force or a career changer."


You then further clarify that you are looking for what we deem would be "the most efficient with long lasting ROI"


At one point you mention "one thing you can do for your career that will help you soup to nuts". Note, this definitely can be construed as being completely different than just getting a great job in IT.


In subsequent posts you narrow down your definition of a great job to be a "high level job" and further clarify that a degree from a top 25 university will fast track you into leadership roles.


From your first post you go from talking about one thing that will help you land a great job to the one thing that will help you land a high level job or leadership role.


It seems like in reality you are really asking about what one thing will help someone land a management job?


I'm just going to focus on answering the question in regards to "one thing you can do for your career that will help you soup to nuts."


My answer would be to change jobs every 1 to 2 years(at least early on in your career and maybe into your mid and possibly late career), so your salary isn't stagnating in regards to the experience you are receiving at your job.


Obviously there are exceptions to this, such as if you're regurlarly receiving promotions and pay increases, but you would still need to monitor if those promotions and pay increases are keeping up with what the going market rate is.


This is based off the assumption that most people aren't going to land a great job or dream job for their first job. I'm also assuming that even if they do land a dream job their first time around, the dream job won't necessarily remain their dream job.

DatabaseHead

The question was very simple and basic.

Just one thing, not two or three. Just one....

I'll start: A STEM degree, Math, Sciences, Engineering, Computer Science.

IMO you get a heavy hitter from a top 25 Uni in their respective domains, you'll never need to get a certification or advanced degree.

Her reply

It all depends on what you're doing in IT. I would argue a computer science degree from a top 25 university (along with the $100K+ in student loan debts) won't really have the ROI you're looking for with a network engineer, system engineer, VMware engineer, etc job. I would argue you could get the same jobs with the same pay ($100K+) with an IT degree and a couple certs + experience. Or just without a degree and the right certs.
Most of the folks on this forum don't have a compsci or mathematics degree (myself included) and are constantly hit up with jobs. The one good thing about this field is that a degree isn't needed to play. Sure, it helps in some ways, especially in the beginning of your career, but I would argue that having a couple certs and being located in the right areas of the country are going to get your foot in the door easier and cheaper than a degree.

Instead of answering the question, my opinion was attacked!

She didn't want to participate in the thread she wanted to argue. She even stated it in her second sentence.


@Thomas you weren't being objective, in fact you were being extremely biased. All my statements were quoted for you to make a biased case while none of hers were........


I took the high road I acknowledge her view point and moved on......

NetworkingStudent

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Just one thing, not two or three. Just one....

I'll start: A STEM degree, Math, Sciences, Engineering, Computer Science.

IMO you get a heavy hitter from a top 25 Uni in their respective domains, you'll never need to get a certification or advanced degree.

One thing well...............confidence. Have confidence in your abilities and yourself!

THE KEY TO CONFIDENCE - CT FLETCHER
https://youtu.be/Wfp9rwivB-M

Iristheangel

Oh dear god... You know that "I would argue that.." is a common expression in the English language, right? It's commonly used interchangably with "My opinion is..." It does not actually mean I'm trying to start an argument with you or attacking you by simply using that phrase.

*facepalm*

As others have said in this thread, the thread was extremely open-ended and open to interpretation. Especially when it seems like you kept changing the goal post on what you really wanted. Believe me, Thomas_ isn't biased towards me or anyone else. Like he's said, we've agreed and disagreed with either other in the past. We've had some good debates and other times we agreed. It's a healthy thing to have different opinions.

If you weren't open to anyone else's opinions or didn't want anyone else to respond to your statement, why put it on a forum and not a blog?

Also other people in this thread have the similar opinions that they didn't feel that a degree was the "end all and be all" of a career in IT and have stated opinions that they see experience, certifications, attitude, confidence, personality, etc were more important that a degree. I just happened to explain my reasons why I didn't feel the same way and you seem to think that was attacking you. I wasn't.

Personally, I think the best most efficient thing you can do for your career is to get experience. Sometimes to get that exprerience, you have to get certs. No, I won't say there's one magic bullet cert out there so I use "certifications" as plural. Just like you can't get a degree without taking multiple classes and courses, using certs to get to the right place in your career usually requires just more than one. The good thing is that you can get multiple certifications early on in your career and relatively cheap in comparison to a CS degree from Stanford which makes it an excellent ROI. Usually anyone can get certs but not everyone can get into Stanford and get financial aid to afford the crippling debt after. My opinion was based on a broader audience and practicality.

P.s. I missed the comments about management/leadership jobs, thomas. DB - I don't think we're going to change the others minds here so we'll probably have to agree to disagree.

E Double U

DatabaseHead wrote: »

PS I am still pushing my daughter to get a degree in Mathematics from a top 25 school. As a parent I believe this degree will be one of the best you can hold in the future. Just my opinion.....

This a good idea. I work in a SOC and we hired a guy fresh out of school with a masters in mathematics (no technical background whatsoever) and he is crushing it. I assume your daughter has the same photographic memory as this guy lol.