Let's talk salary and overall compensation package

Azt7

I've been listening to the market lately and it's shocking to see that lots of companies are still relying on the basic trio : salary / health insurance / x weeks of vacations.

In my opinion, these perks should be included on top of the basic trio :

• work from home (regardless of amount of days)
• Commute fare payed even at 50%
• training budgets
• flexible hours

Of course, we need to make a separation depending on the position :

• IT Ops meaning Sys Admins / devs / DevOps : salary / health insurance / x weeks of vacations

• Sales Ops meaning Presales Architects / sales engineers : basic trio + commission on sales achieved or bonus on goals

• Team leadership or entry level management meaning Team leads / Directors : basic trio + bonus based on metrics or bonus on goals

What are the most important factors to you when it comes down to compensation ?


What is your overall feedback so far ?

soccarplayer29

I have found that most employers sell or talk up whatever they feel are their strengths that make them attractive to candidates. They don't mention work from home, flex schedule, training budget, etc. because they don't offer them.

Good employers (and recruiters) highlight those things. If they only mention salary/pto then I ask about training budget, remote work, etc. and am usually disappointed with some lame response that those are handled by the hiring manager or some other BS when the fact is they just flat out don't offer them.

The things that I'm most interested in from employers:

1. Duties/technologies
2. comp (salary/bonus/401k)
3. Work from home
4. Career growth
5. Training
6. Health insurance

Danielm7

I had a similar conversation like this with my director just a few days ago. I was explaining that we're in the security field, negative unemployment and it's hard to find decent people. We need to up our game when posting jobs. I told them, we're not a tech company, our wages are fair but not crazy high, we don't have a solid plan for training, the company culture is still not super mature from a security standpoint, etc.

A few of those things are manager dependent too. I might give you 75% remote work if I trust that you can keep doing the job well. If we're having a good year I might get SANS training approved or additional conferences too. But, since not of that is a 100% guarantee it makes a harder pitch in this market of "you should work here, because we'll pay you money".

TechGromit

soccarplayer29 wrote: »

The things that I'm most interested in from employers:

1. Duties/technologies
2. comp (salary/bonus/401k)
3. Training
4. Career growth
5. Health insurance
17. Work from home

gespenstern

Things I'm interested in:

1. 90% salary.
2. 10% commute/WFH.

Don't care about anything else.

DatabaseHead

gespenstern wrote: »

Things I'm interested in:

1. 90% salary.
2. 10% commute/WFH.

Don't care about anything else.

Add bonus, which buckets under salary and this is mine as well.....

MeanDrunkR2D2

For me the most important is the following:
Duties/tech exposure
Work/Life balance with good PTO/sick policies
Pay - Other benefits

paul78

Interesting to read the responses. I personally have never looked at the individual components of a compensation package. I tend to look at the package in it's entirety - especially since my wants and needs may be different at each stage of my career. Generally, the only component that I really care about is the variable component of any compensation package. I tend to be more of a risk taker and I will always favor a package where the variable component is a large part of the compensation.

jeremywatts2005

One thing I have noticed is that companies are skimping on training and paying for certifications. For instance I already have two Masters Degrees and every company seems to want to pay for another degree but on nothing else. It is very institutionalized in companies. Also the health care, 401k and other options differs very little from company to company. Vacation is the same way. Seems like most companies just copy each other in terms of these items. Where companies need to become competitive is salary. Too many companies are complaining about lack of qualified employees but won't train them and won't pay for individuals who have went out and did their time and got the training. Would love to see more companies adopt a policy of student loan repayment if you have degree that matches your field. Also work from home is nice and so are bonuses but I never trust either of those to ever be a permanent thing in employment. New management comes in and the next thing you know you are commuting every day from an office and if the company feels they are paying too much out in bonuses boom there go the bonuses or they get cut down. Salary is the one thing that should be top on the list if you intend to stay at a company. Reality is that base salary will determine your future salary growth the entire time you are at the company. A promotion might net you 5% to 10% more at a company and that is generous. So if you take a low base with a promise of huge bonus you are shooting yourself in the foot. I always try to ensure I am above the midpoint of the companies salary scale for my position. This way when I do advance and I will I am being compensated closer to market value

LeBroke

Let's agree total comp is important. Definitely has to be more than my current job, but willing to take an offer that's not the highest comp out of the ones I'm picking from if I'm searching for a job.

But other than that... what is the technology stack. Is it something I want to touch? (aka no PHP). Will it set me up well for the NEXT job after this one? Is there a plan in place and they need someone to implement, or do they just want one person doing that thing (cargo culting is a huge problem in DevOps where companies just hire DevOps without any specific business problem they want to solve or a process they want to improve).

Commute factors in a little, but almost any jobs worth taking here are downtown anyway.

anthonx

soccarplayer29 wrote: »

I have found that most employers sell or talk up whatever they feel are their strengths that make them attractive to candidates. They don't mention work from home, flex schedule, training budget, etc. because they don't offer them.

Good employers (and recruiters) highlight those things. If they only mention salary/pto then I ask about training budget, remote work, etc. and am usually disappointed with some lame response that those are handled by the hiring manager or some other BS when the fact is they just flat out don't offer them.

The things that I'm most interested in from employers:

1. Duties/technologies
2. comp (salary/bonus/401k)
3. Work from home
4. Career growth
5. Training
6. Health insurance

All of these PLUS an all expense paid trip to the Carribean? Attend IT event seminars with all expense paid including expensive hotels? A friend told me about these things when he was reviewing the expense vouchers...

TechGromit

jeremywatts2005 wrote: »

One thing I have noticed is that companies are skimping on training and paying for certifications.

I can understand companies reluctant to play for training and certifications if people are just going to leave the company. Personally I would be perfectly fine with letting me get training and agreeing to work two years, or I have to pay back the costs of the training.

JoJoCal19

For me, the order of importance is:

1. Remote Work
2. Salary
3. Job Stability

I'm at a point in my life where I have zero desire to commute into an office just for the sake of it anymore. I'll flex on pay to keep a fully remote arrangement. I don't mind 1-2 days in office but that's about max, and it had better not be for the sake of showing my face. It had better be to actually do stuff like in person meetings, or other things that are better in person.

chrisone

1. Comp
2. Work from home (this should be considered as flexible hours)
3. Career Growth (this should include training and promotions)
4. Vacation
5.but really 1. Work atmosphere (If I work for a manager who is shitty/micromanager/jealousy/non-motivating, or co-workers/team with ******* vibes/disrespectful, and the company doesn't do anything fun for their employees, im out of there)

Azt7

I agree with most of the points but we also have to be fair in terms of the training budgets : If a company pays for you to be trained, I'm perfectly fine with them asking you to stay for at least 1 year or max 2 .

It's actually one of the reasons why I paid for all my certs, I would rather stay free and pack up whenever I want.

I guess I can do that when all I have are Microsoft and Amazon certs. Once you hit SANS or the rest of the big boys, it's a different story

paul78

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned free lunch and beer yet as a perk.

mnashe

1) salary
2) benefits
3) $5000/mo housing and car allowance

Azt7

paul78 wrote: »

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned free lunch and beer yet as a perk.

You are right on the money, sir.

One of my buddies got a Python developer position recently and admitted to me that his new company had unlimited beer fridge in the office along with happy hours (for lack of a better term) every friday.

That closed the deal for him

DZA_

Generally my criteria for a TCP:

1) Salary (Gotta afford the Porsche)
2) Benefits (Defined benefits pension / matching RSPs / Employee Ownership Plan)
3) # of Vacation Days (Definitely need my days off)
4) General work culture (A positive and fun culture always make it easier at the office)
5) Career growth / development (If I can't grow, why am I here?)
6) Commute Time (Longest I've been on was about an hour, save money on gas)

EANx

Salary + bonus
401k matching or other retirement benefits
Stability of the company (how many lay-offs had they had)
Vacation/sick time

Coming at it from the other direction, I know neither of these will be popular but I'll say them anyway. First, there's no way I'm going to guarantee a new person any "work-from-home", that's something you earn after showing you're diligent. I've inherited too many people that are never online during their one telework day, never mind total remote work (most turned their participation around after they realized they were being monitored). There are some positions that are better remote and some that can be done in the office or at home and when I know someone is a performer, I don't mind if they work from home.

The other is training. There's more to the cost of training than the cost of the class, at the least, there's the salary of the student and maybe travel costs as well. I'm a huge fan of training but I'm also a huge fan of not being taken advantage of. So for me, "paying back the cost of training" if you leave early is more than just the class.

LeBroke

DZA_ wrote: »

1) Salary (Gotta afford the Porsche)

So... I went for a test drive for a sweet 2006 Carrera 911 thinking "yay, I'ma get my dream car soon!"

....I hated it. Super uncomfortable and just not that fun to drive. Especially slow to get going at the start... it's more the type of car to do burnouts and go 0-100, but not a comfy city car.

UnixGuy

Employers can get away with not adding those perks, so they'll keep doing until they can't

Look at the Silicon Valley, they can't attract superior talent unless they provide those kind of perks. Supply and demand.


For me personally, at this point:
1. Career progression
2. Salary

DZA_

LeBroke wrote: »

So... I went for a test drive for a sweet 2006 Carrera 911 thinking "yay, I'ma get my dream car soon!"

....I hated it. Super uncomfortable and just not that fun to drive. Especially slow to get going at the start... it's more the type of car to do burnouts and go 0-100, but not a comfy city car.

Way to go to ruin my dream car haha. Alternatively a nice BMW M240i would be pretty sweet, an M2 is unjustified. Driving a Porsche in the Vancouver mountains and hill tops is like a must. Better driving there than these Ontario roads.

Azt7

EANx wrote: »

Salary + bonus
401k matching or other retirement benefits
Stability of the company (how many lay-offs had they had)
Vacation/sick time

Coming at it from the other direction, I know neither of these will be popular but I'll say them anyway. First, there's no way I'm going to guarantee a new person any "work-from-home", that's something you earn after showing you're diligent. I've inherited too many people that are never online during their one telework day, never mind total remote work (most turned their participation around after they realized they were being monitored). There are some positions that are better remote and some that can be done in the office or at home and when I know someone is a performer, I don't mind if they work from home.

The other is training. There's more to the cost of training than the cost of the class, at the least, there's the salary of the student and maybe travel costs as well. I'm a huge fan of training but I'm also a huge fan of not being taken advantage of. So for me, "paying back the cost of training" if you leave early is more than just the class.

Looking at it that way, your point about training budgets makes sense. Initially I was thinking more in terms of online training but including travel costs is a different game.

In regards to working from home, of course this is moreso for proven people with 8 to 10 years of experience minimum. Little Kevin who just graduated might not have the discipline required.

At the same time, things have to be clear from the get go, working from home on some days is a privilege : If things aren't getting done or you do not respond within 15 mn to 30 mn, your behind will have to be in office.

I firmly believe in being fair so if the company is open minded, I have to perform accordingly. Plain and simple.

josephandre

Someone here posted the perfect answer re: training justification and it's stuck with me ever sense, and I use it regularly.

manager1: what if we get them trained up and they leave?

manager2: what if we don't, and they stay?

There's always going to be folks that jump ship, but plenty more that stick around after the fact and you're just improving your workforce.

I've always been a salary first guy, and I'll make due with the rest of the package. My wife was diagnosed with Cancer last year though, and good insurance has skyrocketed to the top of the list. It's really amazing the disparity in health insurance benefits from company to company, and I've had to become an expert at comparing them.

LordQarlyn

josephandre wrote: »

Someone here posted the perfect answer re: training justification and it's stuck with me ever sense, and I use it regularly.

manager1: what if we get them trained up and they leave?

manager2: what if we don't, and they stay?

There's always going to be folks that jump ship, but plenty more that stick around after the fact and you're just improving your workforce.

I've always been a salary first guy, and I'll make due with the rest of the package. My wife was diagnosed with Cancer last year though, and good insurance has skyrocketed to the top of the list. It's really amazing the disparity in health insurance benefits from company to company, and I've had to become an expert at comparing them.

Yep I see that once in a while on my LinkedIn feeds. It's amazing how few companies seriously invest in training, and based on input and feedback from my colleagues around the world it seems predominantly US companies that are stingy. Some of my foreign colleagues have stated that training forms a significant part of their annual or semiannual appraisals, and they are rated on how much they trained whether it was self study or using company resources to train. With my company, it's just a blip, you could max out that metric and it would barely impact your total appraisal score lol.

ITSec14

My company offers pretty competitive pay + bonus which was a big plus, but I care a lot about time off. My company starts new employee's at 3 weeks vacation, 6 sick days, 8 federal holidays and 4 floating holidays we can take whenever we want. What REALLY sold me on this job was the 12 weeks PAID paternity leave. My wife and I are expecting our first and I'm so looking forward to being able to enjoy the time with our son when he arrives without having to sacrifice my vacation or worry about unpaid time off. More companies need to keep this trend going.

Squished

josephandre wrote: »

Someone here posted the perfect answer re: training justification and it's stuck with me ever sense, and I use it regularly.

manager1: what if we get them trained up and they leave?

manager2: what if we don't, and they stay?

There's always going to be folks that jump ship, but plenty more that stick around after the fact and you're just improving your workforce.

I've always been a salary first guy, and I'll make due with the rest of the package. My wife was diagnosed with Cancer last year though, and good insurance has skyrocketed to the top of the list. It's really amazing the disparity in health insurance benefits from company to company, and I've had to become an expert at comparing them.

Training is critical. I've been on both ends of the spectrum and it's absolutely critical.

Syntax

EANx wrote: »

Salary + bonus
401k matching or other retirement benefits
Stability of the company (how many lay-offs had they had)
Vacation/sick time

Coming at it from the other direction, I know neither of these will be popular but I'll say them anyway. First, there's no way I'm going to guarantee a new person any "work-from-home", that's something you earn after showing you're diligent. I've inherited too many people that are never online during their one telework day, never mind total remote work (most turned their participation around after they realized they were being monitored). There are some positions that are better remote and some that can be done in the office or at home and when I know someone is a performer, I don't mind if they work from home.

The other is training. There's more to the cost of training than the cost of the class, at the least, there's the salary of the student and maybe travel costs as well. I'm a huge fan of training but I'm also a huge fan of not being taken advantage of. So for me, "paying back the cost of training" if you leave early is more than just the class.

I don't think that work-from-home should be a guarantee (unless it really is a remote position), but some companies are entirely averse to letting anyone work from home unless it's absolutely necessary. Then the other attitude towards it is "well if I let you work from home then I'll have to let everyone". So if you allow employees to work from home when you know that you can trust them to perform then that's great to offer that flexibility as a perk/reward.

As far as training, even if they offered reimbursement for job/field-relevant certifications that would be a huge plus. I wouldn't expect a company to pay for just any training outright, UNLESS it's training for something specific to that job. If they adopted some new application or platform and expected me to become proficient at using it, I would hope they would invest in training for it.

josephandre

One other thing regarding education, is if there's a time commitment and they don't prorate at all, it's going to take a whole lot for me to consider it.

Mitechniq

Sounds like all of you should come work at my company.

We pay salary plus annual bonus, we provide external and internal training. Several of us have taken SANS courses. I plan to take OSCP at the end of the year and I paid for a year of CloudAcademy training for all our engineers last year. We go to Black Hat, Splunk and Re-Invent. I go to local Security conferences which my company pays for the mileage, even if it's in the evening. We have a solid leave program and some of our positions are full-time work from home like myself. We are growing our Security team rapidly and have several openings available. Oh, and leadership is awesome! There are companies that are willing to invest in their employees, you just have to keep searching...

PM me if anyone is interested.