Company has concerns about job jumps

CiscoASA2202

I am interviewing again and trying to leave this company. Basically I always end up in the same company for almost 2 years and than I'm gone
There's a company right now I'm looking to get into but they mentioned the job jumps as its an issue for them but they're considering me anyway

Why is it an issue if a lot of people just don't want to stay in the same job forever, some of us just don't want to

scaredoftests

Some places do (why train someone who is going to jump ship, for example). What did you say when they asked you why you wanted to leave your present job?

EANx

It can take a while to train someone and bring them up to speed, how long depends on the role and the complexity of the organization. I'm less concerned about job hopping from a help desk tech than I am from a storage engineer so it all depends.

DatabaseHead

Exactly especially in senior level and more complex roles. It can take someone up to a year or longer to become really good at the job.

Basic85

Some companies don't care if you leave or not so it all depends on the company. I'd ask them what's the turnover and see what they say.

mikey88

DatabaseHead wrote: »

Exactly especially in senior level and more complex roles. It can take someone up to a year or longer to become really good at the job.

This. It is less significant for lower level positions, but can still pose a problem with some companies. I've taken jobs before that were in undesirable locations knowing that I probably won't stick around for too long but would end up gaining valuable experience.

So before leaving your next job, do factor in your time with the company and how it could affect your future employment.

iBrokeIT

What were the reasons you left the last four companies? Were you jobbing hopping because couldn't handle the regular responsibilities of the position, caused drama with coworkers, had trouble with your manager, because you got bored or were you switching for career advancement, because you moved cities, had an opportunity to work with a previous manager you liked? Provide them some insight in your decision making behind your moves... unless they weren't made for great reasons of course.

Most companies want full time salaried employees to stick around longer than 2 years.

CiscoASA2202

iBrokeIT wrote: »

What were the reasons you left the last four companies? Were you jobbing hopping because couldn't handle the regular responsibilities of the position, caused drama with coworkers, had trouble with your manager, because you got bored or were you switching for career advancement, because you moved cities, had an opportunity to work with a previous manager you liked? Provide them some insight in your decision making behind your moves... unless they weren't made for great reasons of course.

Most companies want full time salaried employees to stick around longer than 2 years.

Previous job I have left was for more pay and increase in experience, I was pretty good at my last company and using those skills I was hired for a position with a much larger salary and much more work
Eventually the work decreased to lighter and lighter projects, (not exactly true, my job is just too easy and I can't stand it)
I get bored easily if I'm not facing challenging enough work

My recent projects all involved firewalls, routers, VOIP, and WIFI
Easy, easy, easy

I want to move on and I have more interviews lined up

CiscoASA2202

Basic85 wrote: »

Some companies don't care if you leave or not so it all depends on the company. I'd ask them what's the turnover and see what they say.

The job I'm looking at now they are a new company with 25-50 employees so far
Means more work, more opportunity and longer hours but 'I would rather be working again than shining a seat
I miss the trenches...
don't ask what i do today, its not worth it anymore

NOC-Ninja

if you have the skills and they are hurting in technical skills then they will hire you. I have 1 year in my current company and i am looking. I have 3 interviews so far.

barberj66

I think my longest period in one job is 4 years. I worked for one company for 7 in total but had a 2 year break in the middle at another company and went back to the previous place for a higher role.

I had an interview not long ago and they commented I wasn't a job hopper, I didn't think 4 years was a long time really but I guess in more recent times people don't tend to stay in one place anymore. There are definitely exceptions to this and some people still stay with one company for 20 years plus but a lot of the time from my own experiences you get better pay and more responsibilities moving company.

I seem to get to the 4 year stage and just want to move on, this may be different if there were genuine opportunities to get promoted or further training but I've found a lot of the time it is all talk. Maybe I've been unlucky but in interviews it's always "yeah there's plenty of scope for promotion so and so moved into this position and yes we invest in our people with xyz training". I've found in most cases it's bs.

Maybe this company you applied for is different and wants to develop the staff and retain them...

chrisone

I am going on year three at my current place. I am at the point where I need to evaluate my position, pay, work environment, happiness, location, growth.

I am 10k underpaid(Based on what they were offering for the job THREE years ago!), no indication of any type of a chance at seniority in my job title, starting to realize I am the only security engineer doing any type of security related work, the only guy getting certifications, I hate downtown, commute is long, raise last year was at minimum.....

If next raise isn't at least around 5% , I have to leave

Jon_Cisco

CiscoASA2202 wrote: »

Why is it an issue if a lot of people just don't want to stay in the same job forever, some of us just don't want to

I think there are two possible problems.

1st - It cost companies a fair amount of money to hire and train new employees.
2nd - They may be concerned that you never get established and form good working relationships with you coworkers.

All employers and employees are different but the hiring manager has to take a guess on who will bring the company the most value.

DatabaseHead

chrisone wrote: »

I am going on year three at my current place. I am at the point where I need to evaluate my position, pay, work environment, happiness, location, growth.

I am 10k underpaid(Based on what they were offering for the job THREE years ago!), no indication of any type of a chance at seniority in my job title, starting to realize I am the only security engineer doing any type of security related work, the only guy getting certifications, I hate downtown, commute is long, raise last year was at minimum.....

If next raise isn't at least around 5% , I have to leave

I find 3 years to be a nice sweet spot. No upward mobility, then time to move on...... My last role was 2 years 10 months, I'm on 18 months now.

scaredoftests

My last job, the president left the company with all the money, I was there 1.5 years. I have been at my present company for 1.6 years. Other reasons for 'jumping' in my case is contract ended or budget cuts.

infosecs

you need to be creative but look natural in explaining the jumps.
And dont let them make you feel bad, I worked in same co for over a decade and they look at it as if I am the laziest person they have interviewed so far.
can't please them all

Basic85

infosecs wrote: »

you need to be creative but look natural in explaining the jumps.
And dont let them make you feel bad, I worked in same co for over a decade and they look at it as if I am the laziest person they have interviewed so far.
can't please them all

Agreed, if you stay too long at a company than it makes it seem you're lazy but if you jump too much/soon than you can't commit, it's like you can't win. So in the end, I do what is right for me and if other companies don't like it than fine there problem not yours.

NotHackingYou

I think it depends on why you moved. A person moving on every few years for a more challenging role doesn't seem out of the question. Lots of lateral moves would need a more thorough explanation.

TechGromit

CiscoASA2202 wrote: »

I am interviewing again and trying to leave this company. Basically I always end up in the same company for almost 2 years and than I'm gone
There's a company right now I'm looking to get into but they mentioned the job jumps as its an issue for them but they're considering me anyway

Why is it an issue if a lot of people just don't want to stay in the same job forever, some of us just don't want to

Hey, you have to do what's good for you, if you can get a more money jumping ship every two years, why wouldn't you go for it?


However my company has to what is right for me. Do I want to train a new employee every two years?

I'll spend 3 to 6 months getting new employees up to speed so they will be fully productive. I'll go though the headaches and expense of background checks, drugs tests, on boarding paperwork, etc. Just to have them leave me in 18 months because they are whine about the job is no longer challenging to them? Now I have to go through to process of hiring a new employee, which on average costs $4,000 to post ads, time out my day to do interviews, not to mention the lost productively my business is missing with that vacate position. If you applied at my company with so many short term positions, without a very good explanation why, I'd file your resume in the Circular filing cabinet I keep on the floor. The only reason I haven't done so already it's a tight labor market. If the job market wasn't so tight, I'd would bother with your job hopping ass. THAT IS MY ISSUE!

Tekn0logy

CiscoASA2202 wrote: »

I am interviewing again and trying to leave this company. Basically I always end up in the same company for almost 2 years and than I'm gone
There's a company right now I'm looking to get into but they mentioned the job jumps as its an issue for them but they're considering me anyway

Why is it an issue if a lot of people just don't want to stay in the same job forever, some of us just don't want to

No issue at all, I'm realizing that it was a mistake to stay past 5 years. Unless you are being groomed for an executive level, WALK.

Jon_Cisco

Tekn0logy wrote: »

No issue at all, I'm realizing that it was a mistake to stay past 5 years. Unless you are being groomed for an executive level, WALK.

In the original question the poster is asking why is it an issue for the Company.
There are two sides to every story and I think the CiscoASA2202 is trying to understand the employers perspective.

Tekn0logy

Jon_Cisco wrote: »

In the original question the poster is asking why is it an issue for the Company.
There are two sides to every story and I think the CiscoASA2202 is trying to understand the employers perspective.

I think the OP would not jump jobs if he found a good employer. Having worked a few companies, I have a bit of insight why people stay or leave.
Both sides of the coin can be summed up here:

Good employer: (why people stay)
Pays well
Trains employees
Work-Life Balance
Budgets employee mobility
Employee job rotation
Employees are family
Extensive benefits beyond 401K and health/dental.
Lots of company "perks"

Bad Employer: (why people leave)
Pays base salary or lowest bidder
work-life balance is nil
employee mobility is limited except for "favorites"
employee benefits are limited to health/non matching 401k
wants employees available during family time/off hours
does not value employee privacy
no company "perks"
wants the employee to be a sales person on top of daily responsibilities.

The other side of the coin is if you are worried that your employees will leave, then YOU are probably doing something wrong for them.
Might be right as a business model and right for shareholders, but wrong for the employee and they will probably leave.

TechGromit

Tekn0logy wrote: »

I think the OP would not jump jobs if he found a good employer. Having worked a few companies, I have a bit of insight why people stay or leave.

Depends. If he had the good fortune to start out at a good company and any jumps he did were also to good employers, he wouldn't have anything to compare his working experience to. One could just assume all employers are the same, so why not leave to get a few thousand dollar bump somewhere else. It's only with working in the field for any length of time, you come to realize that not all employers are the same. There are some really lousy places to work. toxic work environment, below market wages, crappy raises, expensive benefits, no training budget, no life balance, etc. I can't say I worked for really lousy employers, but I've worked at a few that were not that good. Some of the posters seem to think only lazy unmotivated people are the only ones that stay with an employer 10 years+, the truth is, after working for some really lousy places, when you find a good or even great employer, you realize the grass isn't always greener elsewhere. You try to stay at the same place, raise a family and enjoy life instead of the rat race. Don't get me wrong, changing employers often does yield tangible benefits, but it should be at the beginning of your working career, once you have 5 years + experience under you belt, you should try to find a good place to work long term. You might be able to get away job hopping every two years now that the labor market is so tight, just wait till the next recession, all those two years gigs will really hurt your marketability.

UnixGuy

chrisone wrote: »

.. starting to realize I am the only security engineer doing any type of security related work....

I've been in this situation before! what do other 'security engineers' do?

UnixGuy

seriously ignore them completely

some companies complain about job hopping, others complain about lack of job hopping. Just apply for another job and improve your skills. Don't think too much of what companies want, they don't know what they want.

JoJoCal19

Tekn0logy wrote: »

I think the OP would not jump jobs if he found a good employer. Having worked a few companies, I have a bit of insight why people stay or leave.
Both sides of the coin can be summed up here:

Good employer: (why people stay)
Pays well
Trains employees
Work-Life Balance
Budgets employee mobility
Employee job rotation
Employees are family
Extensive benefits beyond 401K and health/dental.
Lots of company "perks"

Bad Employer: (why people leave)
Pays base salary or lowest bidder
work-life balance is nil
employee mobility is limited except for "favorites"
employee benefits are limited to health/non matching 401k
wants employees available during family time/off hours
does not value employee privacy
no company "perks"
wants the employee to be a sales person on top of daily responsibilities.

The other side of the coin is if you are worried that your employees will leave, then YOU are probably doing something wrong for them.
Might be right as a business model and right for shareholders, but wrong for the employee and they will probably leave.

Great list. I want to add one (my #1 reason I leave any employer).

Bad Employer: (why people leave)
Their Manager

TechGuru80

CiscoASA2202 wrote: »

The job I'm looking at now they are a new company with 25-50 employees so far

I think everybody is missing the main point here...large companies don't have to rely on specific people nearly as much because processes usually exist and have been refined at least to a level that competent workers can come in without going crazy....small companies depend a lot on tribal knowledge because processes rarely are refined or documented, which can lead to long periods to get up to speed. Small companies can be those who offer equity and want you to be around for a long time...there way of thinking can be drastically different...a large company will look at two year stints and not be worried one bit...of course this is all assuming we aren't talking about a 20 year track record because that really starts to look iffy, especially if the moves aren't advancing in role and complexity of environments.

LordQarlyn

Companies that complain about job hoppers are usually those that have high turnover themselves. Perhaps it is time for those companies to do some reevaluations of their compensation package and work environments.
Make sure the compensation is current and competitive. Ensure there are no toxic leaders, that is usually the number one reason why people leave companies. Make sure opportunities exist within the company, nothing sends away good employees like seeing higher positions always being filled externally. Training, IT is a learn-heavy field, while I do feel strongly we all ultimately own our own training, it is an incentive if the company offers to pay for some training. Not saying they have to pay for SANS courses, but even something can entice employees to stay. On that note, keep the work challenging. A business either grows or it shrinks, and if your business isn't growing, it's offering little for star employees to be challenged and thereby grow. If the growth encompasses the newest hot tech, that's even better.
Don't complain about people leaving, make it a place people want to stay instead.

barberj66

Completely agree with LordQarlyn I think a lot of emphasis should be on the employer to make employees want to stay. Yes you do get paid to be at work but I believe in modern times there is more to it than just the pay if another company is offering good training opportunities and better progression and you have the chance to jump ship then why not?

Yes you should be responsible for your own training and myself I do self study in my own time but if a company wants you to have knowledge in a certain area then they should be involved in making sure you have the training to do it. From my own experience IT seems to be the forgotten child our training is often expensive and can last a week or more on courses and companies don't seem to want to pay but will gladly spend a lot of money sending HR or Salesmen or xyz departments on training.

So in my view and the way I like to approach it is I will gladly give my loyalty to a company when they show be the same loyalty in return. If they are happy to put me through training and have realistic chances of promotion or at least interesting projects to be involved with then I'm happy to stay. If you want to give me nothing and expect me to be grateful and stay then I'm going to look after myself in the same way you are. Maybe a bit harsh but more times then not the company wouldn't think twice about dropping you like a stone if they need to.

UnixGuy

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

Great list. I want to add one (my #1 reason I leave any employer).

Bad Employer: (why people leave)
Their Manager

This is literally the ONLY reason why I left EVERY job I ever held. Sure new jobs comes with benefits but what drove to apply to new jobs in the first place was terrible bosses.

chrisone

UnixGuy wrote: »

I've been in this situation before! what do other 'security engineers' do?

I see security guys not working on security related things like, spending months working on network monitoring solar winds solutions, desktop patch management SCCM or via scripts, devops web based interfaces, powershell system support scripts. I am baffled why some people even have the title security engineer. An IDS alert from fireeye or from security onion comes in and I am the only one responding or doing any threat hunting/CIRT based triage. I am the only one working on pentesting certs and actually doing some minor pentesting (mainly web based) at the office. The only guy doing vulnerability assessment (tenable), I built our security onion solutions, MISP threat intelligence, TheHive (Incident Response Management), PatrOwl (Security Orchestration), pentesting lab for the company and the other "security" guys who don't even touch it. I hand them a linux distro, security related or not, and it strikes fear in them. LOL