Another reason education is so important in this industry...

Judd

Ok, the boss is complaining at the meeting that members of the team are always on a different page with relation on how to accomplish the same tasks, Jane does it this way, Will does it another way, and Katie does it differently then the other two. This causes problems for end-users for many, many reasons.

So being the unappreciatedand underpaid leader of the group. I decide to script the task using a logical process, automating the entire process and getting everyone at the same standard. I send out a reference email walking everyone through the process and explaining what happens during the way and what is taking place in the background.

The response I get are one liners like: you bored? And...quey? Later to find out that because of the length of the message, they failed to understand the process, and would rather do things the complicated way, the way our boss wishes us NOT to do.

However, the engineers loved the script and gave kudos on the process used. What's the difference here? Education. While my coworkers failed to understand some of the wording in the reference material, the engineers understand it clearly. It was written to the level that an IT professional should easily be able to comprehend.

So they will continue to point and click they way through the process, increasing the occurrence for error and mistake, while the rest of us will use a script and finish ahead of schedule, and error free.

Education never stops in this industry, thanks for reading my rant.

yamahafirefly

Education would never hinder anyones career, only enhance it. This is a perfect example. The hardest part I find is pursuing a degree while working full time and trying to get certifications.

Just gotta keep on truckin

sprkymrk

I've run into the same situation on a number of occasions. I find, like you did, that those who are simple "always dunn it this way" self taught techs are the ones who usually look at you like a donkey staring at a new gate. The ones with some professional training (education) usually appreciate the need to standardize a process, simplify it by scripting, and as your boss said "be on the same page".

I have to confess to one of my faults that can tend to contribute to others not wanting to get on board with the program, and that's when I fail to get their input before I forge ahead with "my" wonderful solution. Supervisor or not, it helps to allow others to have input (ownership) in the process.

JDMurray

Not everybody understands information presented the same way. The way scientists and engineers interpret and express information is very different from the way people in sales and marketing do. You can't write a complex document in only one style and idiom and expect everybody to understand it.

Next time try an executive summary in a PowerPoint presentation. This seems to be the best way to explain the same material to a room filled people with differing levels of education, experiences, and world-views. God invented PowerPoint for a reason, and by-God this is it.

avx

I don't understand how education plays a big part in this.

12thlevelwarrior

lol, yeah i don't see how education plays a part, but i'll lend an ear to the rant.

i hate when coworkers down me for studying for certs, they are just justifying their lack of motivation in my mind.

JDMurray

brennonbladin wrote:

i hate when coworkers down me for studying for certs, they are just justifying their lack of motivation in my mind.

This can be very true. People who feel lazy and unmotivated sometimes hate to see other people bettering themselves and improving their chances for a better life. Such people can expend an enormous amount of energy belittling other for their self-improvement efforts. Eventually, they'll either jump on the education bandwagon themselves, or just feel alone in their opinion and go find something else to be bitter about. I've noticed this behavior at almost every place that I've worked.

endersftd

I work at a Public Health Department, as their sole IT Manager. I run into all kinds of problems in educating employees on the procedure to do a particular thing on a computer. For example, the administrators wanted the nurses to switch to a computer-based system for their patient encounters. However, practically all of our nurses don't have computers at home or don't care to know how the computer works or just don't like having to use the computer. They would rather do it the way their used to. I can understand this, because not everyone wants to hassle with new technology. This is important to me because it's up to me to decide if the new technology actually makes improvements, such as more work in less time, or if it's really just because some other health department is doing it and administrators don't want our department to look bad.

That being said, my work environment is great on certifications. Aside from the fact that I don't get any more pay regardless of any certification I get (because I'm already hired to do the job - adding certifications doesn't help since none were required), however it's a health department, so everyone is trying to pick up certifications in different things. Our environmentalists, our bio-terrorism coordinator, our health educators are always trying to pick up certifications (and I don't mean IT certifications) to help their job. Since it doesn't affect their pay in anyway and yet helps them become more competant in their work, we always publish employees' successful certification/college degree/etc completion in our monthly newsletter. Even if no one knows what the certification is, people know you're bettering yourself, and that's highly encouraged in my workplace.

strauchr

You don't sound like a nice leader. You have to understand the difference between an engineer and a low level 'deployment' people

Not everyone wants to be the know all and further their career. Some are happy at the low level, deploying whatever solution is given to them. If they don't really understand what your trying to accomplish or how to use your solution then it can be down to a fault within your communication - an extremely important factor as a leader.

You also have to remember a few other things.

1. Ego can play a big part. They may feel that their way is the best and therefore the only way to do things. these people are hard to deal with and often not productive in a team.

2. People don't want to feel their tasks can be simplified into an automated process. Perhaps giving them 'guidelines' or 'manual procedures' to follow.

3. Maybe they don't like you

I have sufferred similar fates to yourself and have learnt the finer art of dealing with people rather than with logic and technical skills.

sprkymrk

strauchr wrote:

You don't sound like a nice leader. You have to understand the difference between an engineer and a low level 'deployment' people

Not everyone wants to be the know all and further their career. Some are happy at the low level, deploying whatever solution is given to them. If they don't really understand what your trying to accomplish or how to use your solution then it can be down to a fault within your communication - an extremely important factor as a leader.

You also have to remember a few other things.

1. Ego can play a big part. They may feel that their way is the best and therefore the only way to do things. these people are hard to deal with and often not productive in a team.

2. People don't want to feel their tasks can be simplified into an automated process. Perhaps giving them 'guidelines' or 'manual procedures' to follow.

3. Maybe they don't like you

I have sufferred similar fates to yourself and have learnt the finer art of dealing with people rather than with logic and technical skills.

strauchr
I see many valid points in your post, but I see a couple I would like to comment on. The first one is that the original post was not about leadership, but rather about the difference in thinking between those who are "educated" (his words) and those who are not. You basically said the same thing when talking about those at the "low level" (your words) who don't care about furthering their careers.

The second thing I noticed is that you said you already learned the fine art of dealing with people rather than logic, but I couldn't tell by reading your post. You started off saying he didn't seem like a nice leader. Is that what you tell those under you at work when they need a little "constructive critisism"? And it also seemed odd that a "leader" with good communication skills would seperate the workforce into engineers vs "low level" deployment people. I would be insulted by that comment if I was an employee working for you.

I would agree with all of your points (even #3, because it's valid) if the discussion was about communication and leadership. But don't you agree that the resistance he ran into, while possibly the result of those things you mentioned, don't illicit the same response from those with a better undestanding of "why" it needed to be done that way?

Just asking because I think it's a good discussion and your post is valid and worth responding to. I hope my observations were not too harsh, and forgive me if I offended in any way. Not trying to start an argument. I have a long ways to go in my written communication skills. I'm much better in person, really.

12thlevelwarrior

Judd wrote:

So being the unappreciatedand underpaid leader of the group. I decide to script the task using a logical process, automating the entire process and getting everyone at the same standard. I send out a reference email walking everyone through the process and explaining what happens during the way and what is taking place in the background.

If you are the true leader of the group- as in manager freaking make them follow the guidelines. I am going off on a rant, but I am sick of people on my team not getting punished when they do something wrong, or atleast singled out. I mean, if I guy does something wrong my manager doesn't call him out but calls a team meeting that turns into a two hour long bashing session on some other department or on our policies and I just sit their looking out the window thinking about the hot chick in the office.

drainey

Just a thought but perhaps the problem isn't "education" but rather "motivation". After all Engineers are educated because they were first motivated to get educated. Therefore they are motivated to understand why you scripted the process.

On a side note -- it has already been said, but there is a definite advantage to getting the "uneducated" to be part of the process of improvement. By involving them you make them feel like they are valued and appreciated. This leads to "ownership" in the project and thus "motivation" to understand and use the result (whatever that might be). If they are not involved they can easily misconstrue your intentions as being self-serving whichs leads to resistance due to not wanting to help make "you" look good. After all no-one likes to score one for the other team.

No offense meant by this.

sprkymrk

drainey wrote:

Just a thought but perhaps the problem isn't "education" but rather "motivation". After all Engineers are educated because they were first motivated to get educated. Therefore they are motivated to understand why you scripted the process.

Once while listening to a Zig Ziglar tape, he quoted an individual whose name I no longer remember, but the words have always stuck with me. Possibly paraprasing a bit, but generally somethng like "Motivation precedes education". That has been true for me, and also true in what I have observed in others.

dagger1x

Lead, follow or git the funk outta the way

dagger1x

Your either for me or against me, If your for me were going all the way, if your against me im gonna stomp on your d1ck.

dagger1x

Its eaiser to go from being a hard a$$ to being a nice guy than a nice guy to hard A$$

12thlevelwarrior

dagger1x wrote:

Lead, follow or git the funk outta the way

I love mindless, oneliners like this... Just sign the post with "No Fear".

dagger1x

Thats right, because its what your paid to do. If you have a problem with orders or think you have a better way you address the issue through the proper channels, in the meantime do what your told.

I used to hate uppidy know it alls that thought they had a better way. I would always pateintly listen to there ideas and then explain why the process will continue to be done my way. Even when I was on the floor I always thought I was the genuis with a better idea. Then I would do the job for 6 months or a year and it became obvious why things were done according to a process.

Whether shift supoervisor at the machine shop or lead tech in a repair facility I had to politley combat these idiots constantly.

Oh and the loser who goes around tattle telling, trying to make himself look good by tearing down others was told to mind their won business. I believe the quote I used in that situation was "if you spent as much time worrying about yourself as you do others you'd be OK"

Loved those old cliche's

strauchr

sprkymrk wrote:

strauchr wrote:

You don't sound like a nice leader. You have to understand the difference between an engineer and a low level 'deployment' people

Not everyone wants to be the know all and further their career. Some are happy at the low level, deploying whatever solution is given to them. If they don't really understand what your trying to accomplish or how to use your solution then it can be down to a fault within your communication - an extremely important factor as a leader.

You also have to remember a few other things.

1. Ego can play a big part. They may feel that their way is the best and therefore the only way to do things. these people are hard to deal with and often not productive in a team.

2. People don't want to feel their tasks can be simplified into an automated process. Perhaps giving them 'guidelines' or 'manual procedures' to follow.

3. Maybe they don't like you

I have sufferred similar fates to yourself and have learnt the finer art of dealing with people rather than with logic and technical skills.

strauchr
I see many valid points in your post, but I see a couple I would like to comment on. The first one is that the original post was not about leadership, but rather about the difference in thinking between those who are "educated" (his words) and those who are not. You basically said the same thing when talking about those at the "low level" (your words) who don't care about furthering their careers.

The second thing I noticed is that you said you already learned the fine art of dealing with people rather than logic, but I couldn't tell by reading your post. You started off saying he didn't seem like a nice leader. Is that what you tell those under you at work when they need a little "constructive critisism"? And it also seemed odd that a "leader" with good communication skills would seperate the workforce into engineers vs "low level" deployment people. I would be insulted by that comment if I was an employee working for you.

I would agree with all of your points (even #3, because it's valid) if the discussion was about communication and leadership. But don't you agree that the resistance he ran into, while possibly the result of those things you mentioned, don't illicit the same response from those with a better undestanding of "why" it needed to be done that way?

Just asking because I think it's a good discussion and your post is valid and worth responding to. I hope my observations were not too harsh, and forgive me if I offended in any way. Not trying to start an argument. I have a long ways to go in my written communication skills. I'm much better in person, really.

I deal better with people in person then on forums. I don't have much time for forums.

Perhaps my initial judgement was too harsh upon re-reading the original post. To me though the overall situation seemed more to do with leadership skills rather than the education of the staff. If he has clearly outlined things the way he said then its probably nothing to do with their education/skills but more to do with their relationship with management.

I'm also saying he is not necessarily in the wrong but gave some non technical ideas as to why the situation has occurred. I'm also suggesting the way in which it could be handled, however without being in the situation myself it is hard to tell why. Sometime you just get stuck with lazy, unloyal workers who have it in for you and there isn't much you can do about that - except get rid of them.

The point about 'low level' deployment people, which I would never use the term at work because they are still important people, is that not all of them are interested in furthering the careers and are happy staying there, some are inexperienced working there way up and others are just plain lazy and you need to communicate at all those levels. Engineers are usually more experienced and/or more 'motivated' or interested so will be easier to communicate with at a technical level.

I suppose it came across as a bit of an attack but I was just trying to point out some other issues as education of these guys doesn't seem to be the issue, at least from what I could decypher.

I still have a way to go learning dealing with people so while I have learnt the art of dealing with people I am far from mastering it.

So cirticism is welcome and no hard feeling there

sprkymrk

strauchr wrote:

I deal better with people in person then on forums. I don't have much time for forums.

(Lots of good content edited out for brevity - see above post to read it).

strauchr wrote:

So cirticism is welcome and no hard feeling there

Ah ha! I see the good communicator in you now, and I can certainly agree with your reasoning. Thanks for the response and take care.

Judd

Hey this turned out pretty good for an afternoon rant at work

I'm sure everyone has a co-worker who is being paid as a "tech" or engineer, but is nothing more than a point-and-clicker. They do nothing to enhance their job, make things easier for the users, or better for the company in general. Then you have the other folks who strive to do their best or always look for ways to make a situation better.

It's been my unpleasant realization that the point-and-clicker's lack both motivation and education. Call it a mere correlation, but I've seen this at different jobs as well. So unfortunately, when you mix the point-and-clicker's with the others in a team environment, the point-and-clicker's never want to jump on board because they have to do something different or have to learn something new...just like the comment earlier about “we’ve always done it this way,” makes me kinda sick at times. They are also the ones to complain in meetings but have no solution; they look at us to fix the problem…

So while we work on a "real" situation requiring analytical and problem-solving skills, they simple kick back and wait on us to figure it out, and then have the audacity to complain because they are behind schedule... The best part is they don’t realize how ignorant they look to everyone else in the department, guess the saying is true, ignorance is bliss.

strauchr

Judd wrote:

Hey this turned out pretty good for an afternoon rant at work

I'm sure everyone has a co-worker who is being paid as a "tech" or engineer, but is nothing more than a point-and-clicker. They do nothing to enhance their job, make things easier for the users, or better for the company in general. Then you have the other folks who strive to do their best or always look for ways to make a situation better.

It's been my unpleasant realization that the point-and-clicker's lack both motivation and education. Call it a mere correlation, but I've seen this at different jobs as well. So unfortunately, when you mix the point-and-clicker's with the others in a team environment, the point-and-clicker's never want to jump on board because they have to do something different or have to learn something new...just like the comment earlier about “we’ve always done it this way,” makes me kinda sick at times. They are also the ones to complain in meetings but have no solution; they look at us to fix the problem…

So while we work on a "real" situation requiring analytical and problem-solving skills, they simple kick back and wait on us to figure it out, and then have the audacity to complain because they are behind schedule... The best part is they don’t realize how ignorant they look to everyone else in the department, guess the saying is true, ignorance is bliss.

Oh yeah, those people well and truly exist and it does annoy you but the people who put the extra effort will move on to bigger pay checks and better things (on average) and those guys will be stuck doing the same job forever. I have seen it happen.

Someone I knew had 7 years Help Desk 'experience' and though she automatically deserved to get promoted but I got promoted above her with 3 years experience. Difference was I was of those guys like you and she was one of those people like 'them'. She is stil on Help Desk last I hear so that would make it 13 years Help Desk 'experience'.

Occasionally those people sometimes do get promoted above you but thats when you reliase you have to jump ship. Yes they are diffcult to deal with, no they're not going anywhere. As our industry matures they will get weeded out slowly but will never disappear.

Those people weasle their way in every job. Just got to deal with them as best as possible, and try not to let them get to you - also use them as a punching bag to take your frustrations out on sometimes.

oldbarney

Judd wrote:

...So while we work on a "real" situation requiring analytical and problem-solving skills, they simple kick back and wait on us to figure it out, and then have the audacity to complain because they are behind schedule... The best part is they don’t realize how ignorant they look to everyone else in the department, guess the saying is true, ignorance is bliss.

At my last job, my manager could probably be best described as a "point and clicker". She was 15 years younger than I, and possessed neither certs nor a degree. Comparatively speaking, I hold a bachelors, 2 associates and a few certs. Although she exhibited exceptional motivation, the really difficult problem solving normally dropped in my lap. She usually took the credit, of course, for my resolution. But let me make a mistake? The world was ending.

I resigned from that position, was out of full-time work for seven weeks, and am exponentially happier for making the decision.

Judd

strauchr wrote:

As our industry matures they will get weeded out slowly but will never disappear.

Exactly...case in point:

Problem child #1 = Female mid 40's, college drop-out-didn't finish her first class. 8+ years in Tech Support, only reason still there is because she knows how to configure all of the software that we've used since she was hired, has no clue about "how" the software interacts with the PC...

Problem child #2 = Female mid 20's, less than 6 mo in Tech Support, recent college grad (BS-MIS) from highly respected mid-west university. GPA = 1.7 <-- Not kidding. Admitted that she "drank" her way through college, has no interest in learning to use the development tools to do simple tasks such as building images or using DOS or VB scripting methods to simplify tasks. A classic point and clicker lucky enough to have an MIS degree. Management already realizes the grave mistake in hiring her...management leads to the next problem child.

Problem child #3 = Male late 40's, department manager 12+ years, 2-year degree in CS from probably the early 80's. Promoted to manager based on seniority, no leadership abilities whatsoever, no backbone whatsoever...does everything the CIO says without a question as to why.

Ahh...when will the industry "weed" these dinosaurs out??

sprkymrk

Judd wrote:

strauchr wrote:

As our industry matures they will get weeded out slowly but will never disappear.

Exactly...case in point:

Problem child #1 = Female mid 40's, college drop-out-didn't finish her first class. 8+ years in Tech Support, only reason still there is because she knows how to configure all of the software that we've used since she was hired, has no clue about "how" the software interacts with the PC...

Problem child #2 = Female mid 20's, less than 6 mo in Tech Support, recent college grad (BS-MIS) from highly respected mid-west university. GPA = 1.7 <-- Not kidding. Admitted that she "drank" her way through college, has no interest in learning to use the development tools to do simple tasks such as building images or using DOS or VB scripting methods to simplify tasks. A classic point and clicker lucky enough to have an MIS degree. Management already realizes the grave mistake in hiring her...management leads to the next problem child.

Problem child #3 = Male late 40's, department manager 12+ years, 2-year degree in CS from probably the early 80's. Promoted to manager based on seniority, no leadership abilities whatsoever, no backbone whatsoever...does everything the CIO says without a question as to why.

Ahh...when will the industry "weed" these dinosaurs out??

Man, we've got a couple of "problem" children too. A couple of girls, one mid 20's the other mid-to-late 30's. The young one is flighty, clueless and incompetent and was "promoted" out of her former position of admin assistant because she was useless there too. The older one has brains, but is complacent and lazy from having been here forever. No motivation and has turned into a point-and-clicker over the last couple of years as she doesn't deal well with change or advancing technology.
Don't get me wrong, both are incredibly nice and easy to get along with. It just makes more work for everyone else to carry their load too.

strauchr

The 40 plus year old management dinosaur is the worst and they dominate the IT upper levels and make appalling decisions daily. Its going to be a good 10 years or so before they leave as the uprising of the younger, more competent IT professional comes up through the ranks.

12thlevelwarrior

what's new fellas, you are going to run into situations like this everywhere. get rid of the dinasours? they will just be relplaced with more...

sprkymrk

brennonbladin wrote:

what's new fellas, you are going to run into situations like this everywhere. get rid of the dinasours? they will just be relplaced with more...

I hearby vow NOT to become a dinasaur. I am 38 years young, but still learning. I rely on my fellow workers for input, ideas and even constructive critisism. Just don't mess with my coffee cup!

Danman32

As I get older, I am finding it harder and harder to keep up with the industry. I often think it is my brain hardening, but then there's a whole lot more to know than there was even 5 years ago.

As I was training myself for MCSE, I showed my parents the 2 books I was using for 293, which was the test I felt I was having the hardest time preparing for. When my mom saw the thickness of the books (even the Sybex book was a bit thick), she encouraged me quite a bit since I was able to get through it in 2 weeks. She's a bit jealous of my memory, which I don't think is THAT great.

strauchr

Danman32 wrote:

As I get older, I am finding it harder and harder to keep up with the industry. I often think it is my brain hardening, but then there's a whole lot more to know than there was even 5 years ago.

As I was training myself for MCSE, I showed my parents the 2 books I was using for 293, which was the test I felt I was having the hardest time preparing for. When my mom saw the thickness of the books (even the Sybex book was a bit thick), she encouraged me quite a bit since I was able to get through it in 2 weeks. She's a bit jealous of my memory, which I don't think is THAT great.

Yeah, I'm getting the same. But its not about keeping up with the ins and outs of technology, its just about keeping up with the direction of technoogy, looking at how new technology can save money or provide better performance etc. and understanding the fundamentals! Most managers can't even do those simpe things.

jpeezy55

I think that the IT industry is one that you always need to be following trends and reading as many white-papers and articles as possible just to keep your head above water in a conversation, let alone trying to do your job as it changes. I just started back to school at age 36 to get a BS in Information Systems. I am also plugging away at my Certs towards MCSA/MCSE and Cisco. I figure by the time I get them, there will be new ones out and I'll be obsolete anyway. :P

But, I agree that education is very important, as is hands-on and actually doing the work. The Admin where I work does not have certs, or a college degree and yet he runs the whole show here, mostly because he was here 4 years prior to getting the Admin job and knows how to do the stuff he needs to do. Granted we run Novell here, and he may not fare too well in a 100% Server 2003 environment, but he would probably hold his own based on having done this stuff for so long. I have been getting the certs and reading the books, but I don't get to do the hands on (which sucks!) and that hurts what I can do since I am reading about the stuff, but am not able to use it in a real-world situation.

I just hope the degree and certs can land me somewhere better in 2 years (when I finish the BS degree)...