references, who should I name?

binarysoul

The employer has asked for three 'professional' references. Can I reference a former co-worker who now works for a major telecom?

My former manager has given me a reference letter, but the company doesn't provide rerfences at all. Would it be appropriate to give her name? Any ideas folks.

I never like to deal with the whole 'reference' issue as it makes me uncomfortable approach people. Do you feel the same?

bighornsheep

professional references generally refer to 'Professionals'

believe it or not, and some of you may argue about this.
ONLY Engineers, Teachers, Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, Priest/Pastors are professionals.

The rest are all professions....thus professional 'blank', but they ARE NOT professionals.

sprkymrk

bighornsheep wrote:

professional references generally refer to 'Professionals'

believe it or not, and some of you may argue about this.
ONLY Engineers, Teachers, Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, Priest/Pastors are professionals.

The rest are all professions....thus professional 'blank', but they ARE NOT professionals.

That's news to me.

By "professional" I always understood it to mean "someone in your profession who can vouch for your skills" vs "personal" references who vouch for your character.

Professional Reference "Yes, he worked here. He was always on time. He was very good at what he did".
Personal Reference "Yes, I've known him for 10 years. He's a great guy. He's only mean when he's drunk".

TeKniques

bighornsheep wrote:

professional references generally refer to 'Professionals'

believe it or not, and some of you may argue about this.
ONLY Engineers, Teachers, Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, Priest/Pastors are professionals.

The rest are all professions....thus professional 'blank', but they ARE NOT professionals.

So you're telling me that if I know someone who lets say ... has been a restaurant owner for 30 years and I used him/her as a professional reference I am in the wrong? In my eyes that person is a professional in their field of work and I think they would take some serious offense if they were not respected as such.

To the OP: If you know someone who is proficient in what they do and you have worked with them in the past then use them as a professional reference.

bighornsheep

bighornsheep wrote:

professional references generally refer to 'Professionals'

believe it or not, and some of you may argue about this.
ONLY Engineers, Teachers, Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, Priest/Pastors are professionals.

The rest are all professions....thus professional 'blank', but they ARE NOT professionals.

professional references generally refer to professionals.

in all cases, it's better to ask. Passport application for example, requires professional reference, and by that, they mean, pastor, lawyer, principals(teachers), accountants, doctors or engineers.

I have never heard of anyone (in the context of hiring) asking for specific references, generally if they want simply a reference, they could ask anything and everything about you, and if they want a professional reference, they are seeking opinion from a 'respectable' person in your life, ie your lawyer, doctor, accountant etc....

cheers.

bighornsheep

TeKniques wrote:

bighornsheep wrote:

professional references generally refer to 'Professionals'

believe it or not, and some of you may argue about this.
ONLY Engineers, Teachers, Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, Priest/Pastors are professionals.

The rest are all professions....thus professional 'blank', but they ARE NOT professionals.

So you're telling me that if I know someone who lets say ... has been a restaurant owner for 30 years and I used him/her as a professional reference I am in the wrong? In my eyes that person is a professional in their field of work and I think they would take some serious offense if they were not respected as such.

To the OP: If you know someone who is proficient in what they do and you have worked with them in the past then use them as a professional reference.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that the term professional has been coined in some many different ways., it's better to check. Not everyone uses the word professional to mean the same common thing.

for instance. Not every Computer Engineer, or Software Engineer in the world legally qualify as an 'engineer', yet another term used widely with no common definition.

Cheers.

Badger95

binarysoul wrote:

The employer has asked for three 'professional' references. Can I reference a former co-worker who now works for a major telecom?

My former manager has given me a reference letter, but the company doesn't provide rerfences at all. Would it be appropriate to give her name? Any ideas folks.

I never like to deal with the whole 'reference' issue as it makes me uncomfortable approach people. Do you feel the same?

Ask the person to make sure and ask them in what way it is ok to be contacted. I would not worry about asking someone to be a reference, its a normal thing. On that note, if you know you will be doing some job hunting, it is better to have your references lined up first, so there is no doubt, and you can provide them when needed.

Badger95

sprkymrk wrote:

bighornsheep wrote:

professional references generally refer to 'Professionals'

believe it or not, and some of you may argue about this.
ONLY Engineers, Teachers, Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, Priest/Pastors are professionals.

The rest are all professions....thus professional 'blank', but they ARE NOT professionals.

That's news to me.

By "professional" I always understood it to mean "someone in your profession who can vouch for your skills" vs "personal" references who vouch for your character.

Professional Reference "Yes, he worked here. He was always on time. He was very good at what he did".
Personal Reference "Yes, I've known him for 10 years. He's a great guy. He's only mean when he's drunk".

Thats how I have always seen it.

int80h

In the US, and engineer is someone who has a PE license from the state they practice in. Everybody else is not a real engineer.

Slowhand

I was under the impression that a professional reference is anyone you've worked with or worked for? (With the exception of a college professor, usually within your major or in a field relevant to the position you're applying for.)

BubbaJ

Technically, a professional is someone granted a license and regulated by the state like a doctor, lawyer, teacher, boxer, etc. Many states also jealously guard the title of Engineer (as they do Doctor, Lawyer, etc.) and sue people using it that weren't granted this by the state. It makes it hard when my company says my title is a Network Engineer, and requires me to have this on my business cards. The state would fine me and require that I destroy all materials referencing this if they discover it.

I'm not sure that I would agree that the professional reference on a job application requires the reference to hold a professional license. This may have been true 30 years ago when I was taught that in school, but it seems to have had its meaning distorted over time.

bighornsheep

BubbaJ wrote:

Technically, a professional is someone granted a license and regulated by the state like a doctor, lawyer, teacher, boxer, etc. Many states also jealously guard the title of Engineer (as they do Doctor, Lawyer, etc.) and sue people using it that weren't granted this by the state. It makes it hard when my company says my title is a Network Engineer, and requires me to have this on my business cards. The state would fine me and require that I destroy all materials referencing this if they discover it.

Agree!! You understand exactly what I mean.

BubbaJ wrote:

I'm not sure that I would agree that the professional reference on a job application requires the reference to hold a professional license. This may have been true 30 years ago when I was taught that in school, but it seems to have had its meaning distorted over time.

I am not sure about 30 years.....but I get what you mean.....anyway, my point is that professional reference might not mean what you think....

binary, perhaps you should ask your co-worker if he/she has ever been a professional reference for anyone......

ps....reason I am being critical about this is because I learnt this from a B.Eng graduate without his P.Eng. tell me that he cant be my professional reference for the aforementioned reasons.

drpower555

This refers to a person with whom you have worked with in the past or present in a, "professional capacity". i.e. , it was your job or you made an income with. A former boss is a good example. I have three former boss'es down and no one has complained.
Or as stated before, someone who can attest to your skills, "yes sir, snuffy can solder better than anyone I've ever seen!" or ,'He has the best troubleshooting skills I've ever seen, thats just my professional opinion." The idea is to get qualified people to say these things about you. Stay in contact with them over time and maintain a relationship with them.
Thats just my opinion.

rcoop

As I have requested this before of applicants (and have been asked for it as well), the term for HR departments is usually (in the U.S. anyway) to distinguish between "personal" and "business" reference.

Possibly when applying for a "professional" position, the employer is specifically looking for a reference from an existing "professional", but in IT jobs, it usually means a "non-personal" reference from a previous job/employment/project/etc...

Take Care,
Rcoop

binarysoul

Thanks all for the replies and it's a great discussion. The only mistake I made I didn't line up my references in advance If you're looking for a jobs, pls do yourself a favor, and have your references readily available.

I've emailed my references, my former two bosses, a co-worker, so hopefully they will get back to me ASAP. The strange thing is they are asking for references BEFORE the inteview. Is that common?

12thlevelwarrior

i was asked for references when filling out app for job. they asked for professional references of people who were not coworkers, i gave them a former boss anyway, because he would give a great reference for me. nothing is in black and white on this there are grey areas.

ps - never thought professional meant lawyer, doctor etc... maybe in some states, maybe in some far off past, but in the present this is not fact. to tell you the truth it really cracked me up.

Slowhand

The word "professional" simply means someone who gets paid for what they do. (For example, there are very few licensed, certified prostitutes, but we still call them professionals. :P )

BubbaJ

12thlevelwarrior wrote:

ps - never thought professional meant lawyer, doctor etc... maybe in some states, maybe in some far off past, but in the present this is not fact. to tell you the truth it really cracked me up.

It depends on how you use the term. As an adjective, it applies to doing something for money. When used as a noun, it carries some legal implications. This is not just in some states. Most states have a legal definition of a professional (noun) and enforce it to some degree. This doesn't mean that companies recognize the same definition - they usually mean a white-collar worker.

When Novell came out with CNE, they said it stood for Certified NetWare Engineer. Several states promptly sued people that claimed that title so Novell said that it is now Certified NetWare Expert. The states claim that an engineer is a professional, and that the states regulate all professionals.

I don't think the states go out of their way looking for these types of violations. They usually react when a "real" professional complains, and there are some that are touchy about having to spend large sums of money and time in school and licensing exams.

Slowhand

I think it's silly, in a case like CNE, (or even with MCSE,) where the title clearly states what type of engineer you are. It's not like your business card just says "Engineer", but it specifically states what you engineer. I suppose it's true, that there are people who study long and hard in school, pass the PE test, and feel like no one should have the right to "take" their title. Still, though, it's a little petty that you'd get sued for being a network engineer (which, incidentally, is my new job title,) when the title is pretty self-explanatory. I guess the world is just weird, that way.

BubbaJ

Slowhand wrote:

Still, though, it's a little petty that you'd get sued for being a network engineer (which, incidentally, is my new job title,) when the title is pretty self-explanatory.

That is my title, too. A Texas official once explained it like this (not an exact quote, but pretty close):
The state defines what an engineer is and who is an engineer, and Texas recognizes several types of engieers, but there is no such profession as Network Engineer.

Slowhand

BubbaJ wrote:

The state defines what an engineer is and who is an engineer, and Texas recognizes several types of engieers, but there is no such profession as Network Engineer.

Good lord, "there's no such profession as network engineer"? Sounds like an official response, to me. Of course, I'm sure that little shop up in Redmond has a different opinion on the matter. Now, after contemplating that type of government response, my heard hurts and I need a drink.

binarysoul

but there is no such profession as Network Engineer.

Good Lord!!! Maybe the word 'engineer' is copyrighted or patented

12thlevelwarrior

Details I would rather not allow to occupy space in my brain.

bighornsheep

12thlevelwarrior wrote:

i was asked for references when filling out app for job. they asked for professional references of people who were not coworkers, i gave them a former boss anyway, because he would give a great reference for me. nothing is in black and white on this there are grey areas.

ps - never thought professional meant lawyer, doctor etc... maybe in some states, maybe in some far off past, but in the present this is not fact. to tell you the truth it really cracked me up.

You can laugh if you want to, a fact is a representation of how things actually is.

BubbaJ wrote:

12thlevelwarrior wrote:

ps - never thought professional meant lawyer, doctor etc... maybe in some states, maybe in some far off past, but in the present this is not fact. to tell you the truth it really cracked me up.

It depends on how you use the term. As an adjective, it applies to doing something for money. When used as a noun, it carries some legal implications. This is not just in some states. Most states have a legal definition of a professional (noun) and enforce it to some degree. This doesn't mean that companies recognize the same definition - they usually mean a white-collar worker.

When Novell came out with CNE, they said it stood for Certified NetWare Engineer. Several states promptly sued people that claimed that title so Novell said that it is now Certified NetWare Expert. The states claim that an engineer is a professional, and that the states regulate all professionals.

I don't think the states go out of their way looking for these types of violations. They usually react when a "real" professional complains, and there are some that are touchy about having to spend large sums of money and time in school and licensing exams.

Thank God (and you) for understanding the truth, and understanding what I mean.

bighornsheep

binarysoul wrote:

Thanks all for the replies and it's a great discussion. The only mistake I made I didn't line up my references in advance If you're looking for a jobs, pls do yourself a favor, and have your references readily available.

I've emailed my references, my former two bosses, a co-worker, so hopefully they will get back to me ASAP. The strange thing is they are asking for references BEFORE the inteview. Is that common?

It's not common for people to ask for reference before the interview.....Some might even tell you it's a signal for bad corporate culture....why would they want to know what others have to say about you before hearing what you have to say about you?

Sounds like its a form of prejudice, not in an illegal way, but sounds like they're not really giving each candidate a fair opportunity to demonstrate their skills and qualifications.

bighornsheep

12thlevelwarrior wrote:

Details I would rather not allow to occupy space in my brain.

Details is the core of all forms of technology and innovations, how can you look on small details?

ps. If you watch discovery channel, you will know that it's almost impossible for anyone to fully occupy and utilize their brain, so go ahead, get wasting with those 'details', one day you might need it,

Cheers!

12thlevelwarrior

We obviously have different personalities. We just pay attention to different details. The history of the term "professional" as it relates to reference requests is not information I care about. At which point this information is presented to me I "tune out" and think about other details in my life be it technical or otherwise.

Information is infinite, comprehension is not, I choose to selectively apply my brainpower. The details on this post are very low priority to me. No offense. Honestly this post is more amusing than serious to me.

Having said that I love that this website brings together all different types of people and we all can learn from each other. Yes, most likely you would more often than me have details available when called upon.

BubbaJ

Things like this used to be taught in high school. It's a shame that schools have dropped a lot of things like resume writing that used to be part of English classes and Civics that used to be part of Social Studies classes.

I think schools don't prepare people for the real world anymore.

sprkymrk

BubbaJ wrote:

Things like this used to be taught in high school. It's a shame that schools have dropped a lot of things like resume writing that used to be part of English classes and Civics that used to be part of Social Studies classes.

I think schools don't prepare people for the real world anymore.

BubbaJ - I am 38 and either the definition of "professional" was not taught to me in HS or I forgot it because this whole subject is news to me.

Just to prove that everyone on this thread is correct depending on what definition you want to use (and the only one who knows which definition is correct is the HR department of the OP's potential emplyer):
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aprofessional

Based on the above link, I think they were asking for references of individuals who make their living in fishing tournaments:

(Fishing) Angler who makes his/her living from fishing tournaments.

Because everyone knows fisherman don't lie.

Danman32

BubbaJ wrote:

When Novell came out with CNE, they said it stood for Certified NetWare Engineer. Several states promptly sued people that claimed that title so Novell said that it is now Certified NetWare Expert. The states claim that an engineer is a professional, and that the states regulate all professionals.

I have heard that too.

Apparently Novell still uses 'Engineer' in the title: http://www.novell.com/training/certinfo/allcerts.html

When it comes to IT, engineers are usually designing the infrastructure, whereas an administrator is, well, administrating it.

But getting to the original post, I would agree with the understanding of a professional reference in the context given to mean someone who can vouch for your professional caliber as opposed to a personal reference which would vouch for your character. I have a couple of folks at church that would fit both bills, as I have helped out with IT issues.

BubbaJ

sprkymrk wrote:

BubbaJ - I am 38 and either the definition of "professional" was not taught to me in HS or I forgot it because this whole subject is news to me.

Well, I mean when you were 8 years old.

We had to make resumes. We started with 3"x5" index cards and put in-depth, single items on each. We then had to look for key words and phrases on each. We were taught to use "professional experience" only if it was a real profession, and what constituted a profession and why. We used something like "job experience" or "work experience" if it wasn't a real profession. We were graded at every step (index cards, outline, drafts, final resume), and everything (spelling, grammar, punctuation, spacing, style, etc.) counted. I had to find an old typewriter that sort of worked. It was difficult since I didn't know how to type.

I did learn how to make excellent resumes, and I never fail to get complimented on them. This is a skill that everyone needs, and I think schools should still require this.