Microsoft Sues *THE main braindump site*

eurotrash

bcairns wrote:

One thing I do not understand about braindumps....the people that use them to get certified then get a job and have no clue what to do and end up getting fired ...kinda of pointless.

Yes, but not always. There are lots of seasoned pros who use them too, because they think that they already know everything and don't want to learn all the (occasionally useless) stuff like MS's way of doing things.

plettner

bcairns wrote:

One thing I do not understand about braindumps....the people that use them to get certified then get a job and have no clue what to do and end up getting fired ...kinda of pointless.

Yes, that's right. What they do is devalue my skills and knowledge.

Half the point of obtaining these certs. is getting the feeling of accomplishment. It's been said before, I know, but it gets my goat these guys jump on braindump sites and walk into a test centre and basically have bought a cert.

I know in Australia more and more business are looking at industry certs. But if there's a flood of these that come from people using braindump sites, my certificates are just a piece of paper - i.e. Worthless.

strauchr

_omni_ wrote:

bcairns wrote:

One thing I do not understand about braindumps....the people that use them to get certified then get a job and have no clue what to do and end up getting fired ...kinda of pointless.

Yes, but not always. There are lots of seasoned pros who use them too, because they think that they already know everything and don't want to learn all the (occasionally useless) stuff like MS's way of doing things.

Thats probably the biggest users of braindumps. Whats funny is that IF they did know it ALL then the exam should be a breeze for them.

I don't know whats worse, people who pretend to be IT experts but have no clue or people who claim to be IT experts who have a little knowledge but are so arrogant to believe they know everything. The former is usually less likely to make poor decision without consultation.

strauchr

bcairns wrote:

One thing I do not understand about braindumps....the people that use them to get certified then get a job and have no clue what to do and end up getting fired ...kinda of pointless.

Unfortunately thats not the case. Many people use it as a foot in the door and usually blag (lie) their way through their entire career and get away with it.

12thlevelwarrior

i really think microsoft is putting more energy into designing more realistic tests. this is the only way to really defeating braindump sites or "cheaters".

Danman32

Well, it is possible for a braindump to tell you what to focus on for a particular sim. For example, some sims could have you manage services. You would have to know which services would be needed to be changed for the required objectives.

hanakuin

According to a recent article on Mpcmag: http://www.mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=1022 it looks like about the only thing is going to happen is the **** site will have to get a new domain name if anything happens at all. I like the posts at the bottom of the article, some people stating that **** are a valid study source.....lol if you call cheating a valid source.

Plantwiz

hanakuin wrote:

..... I like the posts at the bottom of the article, some people stating that **** are a valid study source.....lol if you call cheating a valid source.

It's the newer generation. They think downloading music is 'ok' too. Shortcuts are 'in' or so they think, but when the sh1t hits the fan and the fingers start pointing they vanish like a fart in the wind.

sprkymrk

Plantwiz wrote:

but when the sh1t hits the fan and the fingers start pointing they vanish like a fart in the wind.

Danman32

Can you say 'ENRON'? I knew you could!

Thanks to relativism, there's no way to teach ethics and morals.

helms20

Just to clarify as this is the first I have heard of it. Is microsoft going after **** due to them offering question/answer type study guides or b/c the questions are a d@mn near exact of the actual exam?

Plantwiz

They are going after any of the cheaters that they can. The reason for cheating is not relavant (IMNSHO).

I just wonder how the former 'customers' of this **** site will be handled? Will the **** site roll on them and rat them out so that MS can go after the individuals too? Might make a few less certified people

JDMurray

Plantwiz wrote:

I just wonder how the former 'customers' of this **** site will be handled? Will the **** site roll on them and rat them out so that MS can go after the individuals too? Might make a few less certified people

Microsoft would need to prove that specific customers actually used the illicit test prep materials to study for their certification exams. Simply having your name in their customer database is not sufficient proof that you actually used their materials to **** on an exam. I don't believe that there's any iron-clad way to prove such, unless people were to come forward and admit that they did. However, if a test prep school where to have used these materials to allow their students to pass MS exam, there would be a strong case for invalidating all the MS certifications obtained by students from that school.

theseman

Plantwiz wrote:

hanakuin wrote:

..... I like the posts at the bottom of the article, some people stating that **** are a valid study source.....lol if you call cheating a valid source.

It's the newer generation. They think downloading music is 'ok' too. Shortcuts are 'in' or so they think, but when the sh1t hits the fan and the fingers start pointing they vanish like a fart in the wind.

I must say, a bit of a harsh judgement don't you think? Some of the biggest movie/music/program downloaders I see are the "old guard". And young ppl learn the shortcuts from somewhere, usually people above them!

JDMurray

theseman wrote:

I must say, a bit of a harsh judgement don't you think? Some of the biggest movie/music/program downloaders I see are the "old guard". And young ppl learn the shortcuts from somewhere, usually people above them!

I recently heard on a Leo Laporte podcast (http://www.twit.tv/) that most people's taste in music is fixed by age 27, and the purchasing of CDs for their personal use drops off considerably after that age. It was the introduction of Napster in 1999 that got the "old guard" interested in sampling newer and different music. However, rather than buying CDs again, the demand for on-line music downloading was created. It seems that the older generation created the demand for the technology and the younger people buying computers and MP3 players are jumping on the technology bandwagon.

seccie

I follow the discussion and there is an interesting solution for the problem. ISACA (the CISA guys) collect questions for CISA exam. Any CISA can submit a question for the question database. The database contains maybe 50K questions? Every year they pull 200 questions and make from them the CISA exam.

The braindump problem doesn't exist, because:
- if you learn these 200 questions from the last year, you have still a fair chance of getting one or two questions from the remaining 49800 ones.
- if you learn all the 50000 questions, you really deserve a CISA acronym.
- you can legally buy questions for CISA exam from ISACA (700 questions) or by RJ Vallabhaneni (a thick book I suppose), why to buy them from xxxxxxxx.com?

Why M$ doesn't do the same? If someone "cheats" by learning to define a password policy on MS WS 2003, why not to let him "****" all the remaining exam goals?

sprkymrk

seccie wrote:

The database contains maybe 50K questions?

The question pool is not nearly that large. Maybe 1000 q's +/-, but not 50k. It would be too easy to have errors/mistakes in the exam with such a large pool of questions. It would also be very difficult to guarentee the level difficulty of any individual test given to any individual candidate. So with a question pool that small, and thousands of exam takers every week, you can see how brain **** can make money. Honestly, it would be very hard to come up with 50,000 questions on a specific topic, like W2K3 Server.

bighornsheep

I doubt there's even 1000, probably more like 400-700 q's.

If you have taken one a particular exam more than once or twice, you will know what I mean, heh...and

seccie

okay,
I meant the CISA database. CISA is older than some guys here, and ISACA doesn't throw out questions from the database. The drawback is, you rather get questions about SNA or superzapper than about OFDM.

goforthbmerry

I followed the link to the article and was really surprised. I have always known that Microsoft is not the most popular company around but I am consistantly amazed by the hatred it involes in some. People replying to the article on that site seem to think that Microsoft is to blame. "the tests are too hard", "they just want the money", "My Mommy doesn't like me." I do not go to street corners on Sunday mornings and praise Bill Gates as my lord but what has the company done that every other company hasn't done or hasn't wanted to do. News flash "Corporate America is Greedy". "Bill Gates is in it for the money". Does this shock anyone??
Microsoft is taking a stand to protect the value of their certifications. As a person who studies (and I know this applies to 99.99% of those who will read this post here) I appreciate the fact Microsoft is doing something. It may not be completely effective but not trying is like the police not prosecuting crime. Yes there will always be more crime but you don't stop enforcing the law.

Webmaster

I agree a larger question pool would be an improvement, but it's really impossible to write thousands of 'relevant and current MS-style' questions for one MS exam. There's aren't that many facts/setting/features/exam objectives aka skills being measured in a single MS exam. For exam like CISA, CCIE, CISSP etc this is obviously different. The theory in those also allows for more variations of basically the same question/topic.

I've read and participated in too many braindump discussions in the past 7 years, talked with vendors, test centers, trainers, and well, nobody really knows what to do about it. Increasing, but also 'refreshing' the question pool has been suggested, and ignored, for many years. Just as many many other suggestions that may seem like logical steps, but are impractical in reality.

They will never dissappear entirely, there will always be a demand for cheats, but I'm positive things will improve, because of sims and other innovative test methods.

goforthbmerry wrote:

replying to the article on that site seem to think that Microsoft is to blame.

Those are quite obviously the cheaters defending and basically denying how they passed the exams. It's stupid, and apart from hurting our certs, it's a shame those are working in the IT industry.

Here's a good article with the most common excuses:
www.mcmcse.com/articles/braindumps.shtml
Probably the most important point is that it's their test, their rules. Not agreeing to their format/rules is obviously not a valid reason to ****.

seccie

I suppose we should be thankful to M$, especially guys from the security consulting. In the world dominated by Windows there will be always a job for us.

Plantwiz

forbesl wrote:

_omni_ wrote:

SRTMCSE wrote:

Microsoft won't revoke certification just b/c of the material you use, I would be utterly shocked even if they could.

Sure they could. They say somewhere on their website or the exam that if you are caught cheating, your certs will be revoked and you will be barred from future certs.

The only way they are going to "catch you cheating" is if your stupid enough to whip out the Q&A's while you're sitting at a test center taking the test. The test center would probably then report you. Think about it. Otherwise, they would have a VERY hard time proving anyone used any type of braindump to pass their exam.

As someone stated before, they'd stand a much better chance going after the makers of these braindumps than the ones who've used them.

Actually, it wouldn't be difficult at all. A simple seponia of client list/sold to and a cross-check and viola. It would be work, but I wouldn't put it past them if they were serious.

Webmaster

jdmurray wrote:

Plantwiz wrote:

I just wonder how the former 'customers' of this **** site will be handled? Will the **** site roll on them and rat them out so that MS can go after the individuals too? Might make a few less certified people

Microsoft would need to prove that specific customers actually used the illicit test prep materials to study for their certification exams. Simply having your name in their customer database is not sufficient proof that you actually used their materials to **** on an exam. I don't believe that there's any iron-clad way to prove such, unless people were to come forward and admit that they did. However, if a test prep school where to have used these materials to allow their students to pass MS exam, there would be a strong case for invalidating all the MS certifications obtained by students from that school.

Plantwiz wrote:

Actually, it wouldn't be difficult at all. A simple seponia of client list/sold to and a cross-check and viola. It would be work, but I wouldn't put it past them if they were serious.

As James mentioned, a name in a db is not enough, and the test prep school example is probably a very realistic example too, but they don't need that much proof. It's not a legal case. They have the right to revoke the cert if they think they have enough proof. I.e. if the customer happens to show up for all the MS exams listed on his transcript and the dates makes sense...

Microsoft can take whatever legal action is justified by the facts of a case and reserves the right to revoke any certifications at its sole discretion.

That quote is from the Letter to Microsoft Certified Professionals and Candidates (from 2001...)

Here's another interesting link for those who want to know some more about the history of MS vs cheaters:
www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/program/piracy.asp

I won't name the site because it's active again and is filtered, but when CompTIA went after a **** site and got hold of the customer's database they were explicitely warned, as posted by several cheaters in some forum back then, they would lose their certs if they wouldn't be found on a similar 'list'. That's already quite some years ago though, and this is Microsoft, but I hope it still serves as a big fat warning. Not a warning that if you'll be caught, you lose you certs, but a clear warning that even though opposed to creating/spreading ****, using them is not explicitely mention often enough by the vendors, they don't want you to **** on their exams and that's what using those site's products is.

If any of you hold any MS certs and feel like trying to making a difference, keep reporting this site at Microsoft, mention your certs, and ask them why they haven't removed this **** site from their own search engine (e.g. www.live.com) yet? While they are sueing them, they are also sending them tons of visitors, which does include some unknowing victims, from their own search engine. You can't search for an exam without running into this **** site or one of the many clones.

Trailerisf

So by threatening to remove their certs for using the site? What would stop them from using a friend/spouse/mother's creditcard/info?

For every barricade, there will be a way around it. I think the only way to do it is make more sims. Add more weight to the sim.

The sims I had were way too easy for a day-2-day admin. The exam questions were made to be obscure to try and trick you. That teaches nothing.

Real-world scenarios. If you flunk the sims, you fail.

Webmaster

Indeed it would not be a solution to all problems, but would be a clear warning, which seems to be necessary.

Real-world scenarios. If you flunk the sims, you fail.

Agreed.

The exam questions were made to be obscure to try and trick you.

Although there's truth in that, it's too often considered a valid excuse to read the questions and answers beforehand. As I mentioned in a previous reply, and is also mentioned in that article at mcmcse.com, it's their test, they make they rules. In the end the study method is much more important than the exact exam format. Someone who uses proper study material, hands-on practice, etc, and understands the material as the cert is supposed to indicate, you'll pass regardless of the exam format or any tricky questions.

PCHoldmann

I think there needs to be multi-prong approach. I think that sim-based questions definitely make it harder for people unfamiliar with the technology, and are a great way to go.

I also thing that a question database in the thousands is not that hard, one of the best solutions would be to make variations on the same questions, like reversing IP addresses, and other minor tweaks. This would be especially effective if the same answers where on the questions, and depending what variant of the question you got, it was any of the answers. Pick 2 with 1 variant being "what is" and the other "what's not." 20 questions in a pool become 40 - 80 questions, and people who try to memorize it have to be on the lookout for which version of the question is being asked.

I think they also need to go after customers, until people start losing certs, things are not likely to change. It may not be possible to go after all of them, but take the top X number of customers, or people that bought more than say 4 tests (but don't tell people how you decide.) After a few of those kinds of busts, the word gets out.

/rant

malcybood

Don't wanna rattle cages, but for guys who are so against Braindumps, you all seem to know a hell of alot about what sites are **** sites and what they contain......just an observation!

I don't even know which sites you are talking about!

*********EDIT: I am not insinuating you use braindumps people***********

sprkymrk

malcybood -

It's pretty common knowledge in the industry. Especially when it's all over the news. Webmaster also has contacts with several parties interested in shutting down such sites, and so has a filter built that xxx's out references to them in people's posts, this a big CLUE that when someone says they used such a resourse as "**** material because I am too lazy to study" or "xxxxxxx.com" we know right away he is using **** material. No rocket science involved there.

You said you weren't trying to rattle cages, but the implied message was there. I consider it quite insulting that simply because we would discuss a topic relevent to our industry you would imply that any of us actually use them.

garv221

malcybood wrote:

...

Serious, let it go. Fighting in a forum is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you’re still retarded. If you reply to this or Sprkymrk everyone will assume that, yes you are retarded.