Why people on Dice.com are so pessimistic?

Arvean

Whenever you read a post there about Tech Market Condition, you hear complains about H1B's, underpay, non-jobs, bad politics. Is it really that bad?

sir_creamy_

The job market caters to those who have the right combination of education, certifications, or experience. JD got it right with his little equation. Perhaps the complainers should focus more on their qualifications?

Now, having gone through the visa process myself I can tell you that getting a visa is not exactly an easy task, so I can understand some complaints in that regard. Personally, I don't think the job market is as grim as some make it out to be.

Netstudent

I think it's just highly competitive. A lot of the people making complaints may be people who weren't handed a job. That is why it is so important to try as best as you can to get an edge on the others. Whether it's your certs, education, experience, or personality, you have to try an maximize your chances by having some of those in the list. There are a lot of intelligent and ambitous people out there that are competing for the positions.

Corporate politics can be a pain in the ass, but life isn't peachy I guess.

Arvean

I absolutely agree with above.

From my own experience I know that if you want to get the job you have to be above all the rest in line. When I wanted to be support tech, I knew I have to pass A+ and MCDST in order to have more skills than average guy. I think that all it takes is just getting better and stop whining about market being brutal.....

Main Event

Those guys are pretty honest and speak alot of truth about the industry. Alot of what they say is what really goes on behind the scenes, lots of MCSE's can't get jobs or opportunity and not many entry level jobs since those with experience often take them up to stay afloat.

For many of us who like computers, honestly it's not possible we maintain a career in them, realistically, it's just not possible.

I forgot who the guy was but he was dead on when he said I.T skills rarely transfer into other areas.

I've given up on the I.T dream, it won't happen anymore and it's time to let it go. I graduated from college in 99, worked a whole 10 hours in I.T in almost 9 years... too much time wasted and it's time to move on.

Going to relocate and find the most expensive school that I and my 2.4 gpa can get into and try to do something as close to medical that I can do... if I'm lucky, I'll start my career before the age of 36 and at least have a good 20 years to make a decent living.

What a waste huh? I really should have stayed in New York when I had the chance.

A-Mart

MainEvent sorry to hear about your job situation and outlook on IT. I wish I were you and have a bachelor degree. Could it be your resume, cover letter or interviewing skills that is keeping you from IT jobs. Maybe working towards a CCNA then CCNP would open doors for you.

I thought about how ify the computer field is and after paying of student loans Ill probably go into accounting/auditing or health care. BETTER job security. But let me just mention that Network/Communication analyst is going to be the fastest growing filed from 2008-2014.

networker050184

I don't think the feild is bad. I think for people trying to get into it with out experience it may be difficult. Once you get a few years experience (experience not certifications!!!) under your belt you shouldn't have too much of a problem finding work. I was lucky and joined the military at 17 where I worked in IT. I haven't had any issue finding work. Just keep at it and don't give up.

Claymoore

Specialize!

The IT field can be a cruel mistress, but you can guarantee your survival by specializing. As of November 12, there were 2,176,764 MCPs in the world but only 8,397 ceritifed as MCSE:Messaging 2003 (https://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/certified.mspx). The MCSE:M is more rare than a CCIE - but that doesn't mean it pays as well. There was very little specialization in the MS certs until the new certification track, but now the certs are more job-role related than the generic server path. With all the new TS and ITP possibilities, you can specialize and gain that extra edge over the competition.

You can also branch out into a field that is underserved. VMware servers are popping up like tribbles - somebody needs to manage them and VMware offers a certification (http://mylearn1.vmware.com/portals/certification/). All those servers need a place to keep their data - EMC owns most of VMware so the two go hand in hand - so expect a surge in the SAN market to go with the server virtualization craze. iSCSI SAN implementations are growing for a couple of reasons - cost and lack of skilled Fibre Channel SAN engineers. Brocade offers a free course (http://www.brocade.com/education_services/Online_fibrechannelfundamentals.jsp) and has a certification program. The big boys with big equipment and salary budgets will continue to use FC SANs and Brocade is the market leader in that segment, not Cisco. Vendors like EMC and Hitachi have certification programs and the Storage Networking Industry Association has a vendor-neutral certification and free downloadable whitepapers for training at http://www.snia.org/education/tutorials/

If you stand still in this field, the industry will march right on past you. You have to like learning new things or you will constantly struggle to achieve and maintain certifications. If you can't handle continuing education, well there's always barber college...

Arvean

Thanks for your input Claymore. I agree that specialization can be the key to the dream job. On the other hand employers require you to be multi-talented. My guess is to have a one special niche, and know everything else a little.

sir_creamy_

Main Event wrote:

I've given up on the I.T dream, it won't happen anymore and it's time to let it go. I graduated from college in 99, worked a whole 10 hours in I.T in almost 9 years... too much time wasted and it's time to move on.

Did you get a 4-year bachelors? What was your major? Was it in a technical discipline? If you want to make dough in IT you'd better be prepared to work hard consisently for the rest of your life. You got a couple entry-level certs in 9 years. I wouldn't expect a **** truck full of money to stop outside your house anytime soon.

sthomas

Main Event wrote:

For many of us who like computers, honestly it's not possible we maintain a career in them, realistically, it's just not possible.

That is a bunch of crap, it is very possible to maintain a career in IT especially if you love to work with computers. Anyone with the desire to work in IT and is good at it will have little to worry about IMO. Some may not make as much as they would like, but honestly some are unrealistic as to what to expect anyways. If you keep up with your skills and you have a positive attitude it is very possible to maintain a solid career in IT.

Claymoore wrote:

Specialize!

The IT field can be a cruel mistress, but you can guarantee your survival by specializing. As of November 12, there were 2,176,764 MCPs in the world but only 8,397 ceritifed as MCSE:Messaging 2003 (https://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/certified.mspx). The MCSE:M is more rare than a CCIE - but that doesn't mean it pays as well. There was very little specialization in the MS certs until the new certification track, but now the certs are more job-role related than the generic server path. With all the new TS and ITP possibilities, you can specialize and gain that extra edge over the competition.

You can also branch out into a field that is underserved. VMware servers are popping up like tribbles - somebody needs to manage them and VMware offers a certification (http://mylearn1.vmware.com/portals/certification/). All those servers need a place to keep their data - EMC owns most of VMware so the two go hand in hand - so expect a surge in the SAN market to go with the server virtualization craze. iSCSI SAN implementations are growing for a couple of reasons - cost and lack of skilled Fibre Channel SAN engineers. Brocade offers a free course (http://www.brocade.com/education_services/Online_fibrechannelfundamentals.jsp) and has a certification program. The big boys with big equipment and salary budgets will continue to use FC SANs and Brocade is the market leader in that segment, not Cisco. Vendors like EMC and Hitachi have certification programs and the Storage Networking Industry Association has a vendor-neutral certification and free downloadable whitepapers for training at http://www.snia.org/education/tutorials/

If you stand still in this field, the industry will march right on past you. You have to like learning new things or you will constantly struggle to achieve and maintain certifications. If you can't handle continuing education, well there's always barber college...

This post is pretty good...It is making me rethink some of my certification goals for 2008.

networker050184

sthomas wrote:

That is a bunch of crap, it is very possible to maintain a career in IT especially if you love to work with computers. Anyone with the desire to work in IT and is good at it will have little to worry about IMO. Some may not make as much as they would like, but honestly some are unrealistic as to what to expect anyways. If you keep up with your skills and you have a positive attitude it is very possible to maintain a solid career in IT.

I agree 100%. If you just keep at it and keep realistic goals you will make it. A lot of people I see read a salary survey and think they should be paid outrageous money just because they have a few certifications .

I went over to dice and read the forums. What do you expect from a bunch of people who can't find a job? The ones who can't probably have horrible ressumes or interview skills. You have to sell yourself! It almost seems like they are trying to keep people from working in IT.

I say just learn all you can and keep your goals realistic and you won't be dissapointed.

Darthn3ss

I read most of this thread - thanks for the advice. I'm going to try and knock out my CCNA in february, and i'll be starting BSCI studys at the end of feb. In the mean time i'd also like to be working towards the 70-290 (i'm in 2 server 2003 classes right now). I need to take my A+ soon as well.

GT-Rob

wow


If you can't find a job in IT it is your own fault. All the reasons for not being able to get a job are your own, damn, fault.


No jobs where you are? Move. Stuck in a small town? Then IT isn't for you, or get unstuck. IT is a big city market and if you are not in one, then it will be harder. Not impossible.

If you are in a big city then you have no excuse. Stop blaming other people or you will never get anything done. Don't rely on your degree as it will get you no where on its own. You need a proper resume, proper soft skills, and work your way up.



I am 23 years old, I went to like a week of college before I dropped out. I am in my 5th IT job and 4th year of working (first job at 19 yes). I now make 60k year as a cisco analyst and own my own company. If things go the way I plan I hope to break 100k in 2009.



Sorry if this is harsh but everywhere I have worked I hear the same thing. And each time, in my opinion, it is because these people did not apply themselves. They sat around waiting for their dream job to come find them.

Darthn3ss

GT-Rob wrote:

No jobs where you are? Move. Stuck in a small town? Then IT isn't for you, or get unstuck. IT is a big city market and if you are not in one, then it will be harder. Not impossible.

easier said then done, especially if you don't have much to begin with.

HeroPsycho

There are ways to do it.

You have to be willing to take chances, get creative, and work hard.

When I first tried to get into IT, the IT market where I lived SUCKED. I had no money and mounting debt. I built a computer to learn on with free spare parts either I had or people didn't want. (A lot easier now with virtualization!) It became my DC/Exchange server running a P1 233MMX with 128M of RAM, took 15 minutes to boot, but hey, it worked, and I learned. I found other people doing what I was doing, and we traded books. I did side jobs as an independent contractor to help pay for exams.

My first job was in another state. Three months later, I got cut as they outsourced every contractor position to India. That was after I spent every dime I had (the majority I didn't have!) to set up an apartment. Got stuck with losing my security deposit to help pay two months rent for breaking the lease early, and had to pay to move back. (Remember, debt had gotten worse, not better up to that point!) Out of work for two months (never had been unemployed in my life until then), got another job again in another state. I've been fine ever since.

And in the end, it's helped me. The vast majority of people I work with are not nearly as motivated as I am because I am constantly paranoid I could lose my job tomorrow through no fault of my own. It hasn't happened in the years since then, but it's a healthy fear as far as I'm concerned.

Main Event

sthomas wrote:

Main Event wrote:

For many of us who like computers, honestly it's not possible we maintain a career in them, realistically, it's just not possible.

That is a bunch of crap, it is very possible to maintain a career in IT especially if you love to work with computers. Anyone with the desire to work in IT and is good at it will have little to worry about IMO. Some may not make as much as they would like, but honestly some are unrealistic as to what to expect anyways. If you keep up with your skills and you have a positive attitude it is very possible to maintain a solid career in IT.

The problem is that I.T is a very specialized field, very few times you'll learn skills that branch off into other areas. Certifications are good and will help but lots of people have the same certifications and have usually the same skills. When you compare a MCSE to say a Accountant, who do you think has a opportunity to branch off into bigger and better things?

And Accountant or even a individual with a typical 4 year degree in Business, will have much more options in case any issue arrives at his/her place of work. The options to do other things are far greater that in I.T.

A couple years ago, the I.T industry and alot of individuals began to stress the importance of social skills, stressing the fact that it's just not smart just to be a techie and that improving custom service skills will greatly improve a chance at doing other things... I agree, a typical tech person will be very limited in all regards but a degree in Computer Science is a very limited degree and isn't something that can branch off into other areas.

I love computers and I love technology, however I, as many others have bills to pay and I cannot afford to play the waiting game. I.T as a whole is a very complex field, I've never heard so much crap when it comes time to find a job. I've heard it all from volunteering to opening up a PC repair business from home, to consulting and much more.

Now, do you think the average individual who spent $50,000 on a degree from a University and has school loans to pay back wants to go through all that hassle? To be honest, you better believe alot of people are old fashioned and feel that after $50,000 spent and 4 years of hard studying and a small social life, they expect a job, not many people have the time to play games and in I.T for many people it's pretty much a game.

If you make good money and have success in I.T then by all means go on but what those guys are Dice say are very much true.

Chevron has a total of 26 I.T based jobs in the United States, this is the 4th largest company on American soil..... seriously, let's be honest here...

I.T isn't for everyone.

Claymoore wrote:

Specialize!

The IT field can be a cruel mistress, but you can guarantee your survival by specializing. As of November 12, there were 2,176,764 MCPs in the world but only 8,397 ceritifed as MCSE:Messaging 2003 (https://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/certified.mspx). The MCSE:M is more rare than a CCIE - but that doesn't mean it pays as well. There was very little specialization in the MS certs until the new certification track, but now the certs are more job-role related than the generic server path. With all the new TS and ITP possibilities, you can specialize and gain that extra edge over the competition.

You can also branch out into a field that is underserved. VMware servers are popping up like tribbles - somebody needs to manage them and VMware offers a certification (http://mylearn1.vmware.com/portals/certification/). All those servers need a place to keep their data - EMC owns most of VMware so the two go hand in hand - so expect a surge in the SAN market to go with the server virtualization craze. iSCSI SAN implementations are growing for a couple of reasons - cost and lack of skilled Fibre Channel SAN engineers. Brocade offers a free course (http://www.brocade.com/education_services/Online_fibrechannelfundamentals.jsp) and has a certification program. The big boys with big equipment and salary budgets will continue to use FC SANs and Brocade is the market leader in that segment, not Cisco. Vendors like EMC and Hitachi have certification programs and the Storage Networking Industry Association has a vendor-neutral certification and free downloadable whitepapers for training at http://www.snia.org/education/tutorials/

If you stand still in this field, the industry will march right on past you. You have to like learning new things or you will constantly struggle to achieve and maintain certifications. If you can't handle continuing education, well there's always barber college...

This post is pretty good...It is making me rethink some of my certification goals for 2008.

That's the thing, the majority of people who aren't working in I.T for x_____ amount of months expect a job.. what happened to that "Computer Support Specialist.... $45,000 after college... 150% job growth in the next 10 years that schools advertise? Do you understand what I'm saying?

If I.T is a field thats in constant change, constant updating of certifications, constant need for people to volunteer to work for free, constant outsourcing and so on they should tell the potential new student exactly how the field operates.

They don't, they drag you in with lies and when you finish and owe big bucks you aren't working and the stress kicks in. People expect it... and they should expect to start off at $45,000 if that's what is planted all over the schools, television ads, radio and more.

But that's not the case. Why should I volunteer to work for free when I have bills to pay? I don't want to move back in with my mother, I want to drive a BMW some day, I want to own a home some day, do I have time to answer a ad for a 10 hour assignment from a company that will get big bucks for the contract and pay me a measly $15 dollars per hour and never call me back again? Can I complete with a MCSE for a temporary assignment setting up a network?

To be honest, why in the world is a MCSE taking that type of job? He/she should be doing wayyy better. It's that bad in I.T, MCSE are working customer service jobs that pay $10.00 per hour... heck, the money they spent to get certified is huge!! and they're making $10 bucks and stressed out.

Heck... I got my A+ and N+ for free from my local workforce one... unfortunately a couple black guys who I went to school with paid $3500!!! to get the same certifications!!!! and these are very entry level certifications and when they asked student services about helping them find a job the answer they received was "have you tried moving to another area"?

Seriously, is that what you're asking me? I must move somewhere else and work a job with a huge possibility of getting laid off... and then what? do I start all over again?

When I can get the same 2 year degree in a much more stable field like Nursing and have a much more fair share and better chance at stable employment. Even a police officer here in Florida can make $50k a year with overtime and that's a very stable field.

I.T is a good field for those who are tolerate and will do the required steps that it takes for success but for many it's not something stable and it's full of lies... I think we need to be honest about that. I don't know about you but what I hear at the schools and on the television is wayyy different than what I hear from the experts on the forums....

silentc1015

Darthn3ss wrote:

GT-Rob wrote:

No jobs where you are? Move. Stuck in a small town? Then IT isn't for you, or get unstuck. IT is a big city market and if you are not in one, then it will be harder. Not impossible.

easier said then done, especially if you don't have much to begin with.

Well, what exactly do you need? One month's rent and expenses! The only real difficulty I could understand is if you have a family and you don't want to move them.

silentc1015

Main Event wrote:

That's the thing, the majority of people who aren't working in I.T for x_____ amount of months expect a job.. what happened to that "Computer Support Specialist.... $45,000 after college... 150% job growth in the next 10 years that schools advertise? Do you understand what I'm saying?

If I.T is a field thats in constant change, constant updating of certifications, constant need for people to volunteer to work for free, constant outsourcing and so on they should tell the potential new student exactly how the field operates.

They don't, they drag you in with lies and when you finish and owe big bucks you aren't working and the stress kicks in. People expect it... and they should expect to start off at $45,000 if that's what is planted all over the schools, television ads, radio and more.

But that's not the case. Why should I volunteer to work for free when I have bills to pay? I don't want to move back in with my mother, I want to drive a BMW some day, I want to own a home some day, do I have time to answer a ad for a 10 hour assignment from a company that will get big bucks for the contract and pay me a measly $15 dollars per hour and never call me back again? Can I complete with a MCSE for a temporary assignment setting up a network?

To be honest, why in the world is a MCSE taking that type of job? He/she should be doing wayyy better. It's that bad in I.T, MCSE are working customer service jobs that pay $10.00 per hour... heck, the money they spent to get certified is huge!! and they're making $10 bucks and stressed out.

Heck... I got my A+ and N+ for free from my local workforce one... unfortunately a couple black guys who I went to school with paid $3500!!! to get the same certifications!!!! and these are very entry level certifications and when they asked student services about helping them find a job the answer they received was "have you tried moving to another area"?

Seriously, is that what you're asking me? I must move somewhere else and work a job with a huge possibility of getting laid off... and then what? do I start all over again?

When I can get the same 2 year degree in a much more stable field like Nursing and have a much more fair share and better chance at stable employment. Even a police officer here in Florida can make $50k a year with overtime and that's a very stable field.

I.T is a good field for those who are tolerate and will do the required steps that it takes for success but for many it's not something stable and it's full of lies... I think we need to be honest about that. I don't know about you but what I hear at the schools and on the television is wayyy different than what I hear from the experts on the forums....

I've got no sympathy for you here at all. I dropped out of college and now I'm making about $90k/year at age 25. All I did was work very hard, embrace change, and seize every opportunity that was presented to me. I'd advise you to stop complaining about reality and adapt to it or choose a different field. There are many fields where you're literally guaranteed a job if you performed well in school. I know many civil engineers, jobs in medicine, etc... Those fields are VERY different than IT. It sounds to me like you're in the wrong field!

networker050184

Main Event wrote:

To be honest, why in the world is a MCSE taking that type of job? He/she should be doing wayyy better. It's that bad in I.T, MCSE are working customer service jobs that pay $10.00 per hour... heck, the money they spent to get certified is huge!! and they're making $10 bucks and stressed out.

A certification does not equate to experience or pay. You don't get a good job from having a degree and certifications. You get a good job from starting out at the bottom and working your way up. The certifications like MCSE only come into play when you have the experience to back it up.

I think you are too lazy to deal with the hard work and you have outrageous expectations. If you don't want to start at the bottom and work your way up you are going to have a hard time in any career field. I wish you luck, because with your outlook on careers you are going to need it.

silentc1015

networker050184 wrote:

A certification does not equate to experience or pay. You don't get a good job from having a degree and certifications. You get a good job from starting out at the bottom and working your way up. The certifications like MCSE only come into play when you have the experience to back it up.

.......

I agree completely. It's been said a million times here, but some people just can't understand. Experience is always the most important. I mean actual quanitifiable accomplishments. Ie, migrated x system to y system, implemented system that saved x dollars and y time, and so on. You must position yourself in such a way to get this kind of professional experience and market it effectively on your resume and cover letter and during any interviews! I mean, think about it. If you were an employer, do you want someone who can tell you all the great things he did for his prior company and provide you with the company owner or IT director's contact info for them to verify it? Or, do you want someone with 0 experience, a couple of certs, and an irritating sense of entitlement? It seems like an easy choice to me!

I think a major problem is people only see the work and effort they've put in. This gives them a feeling of being entitled to some sort of reward. Your potential employer doesn't care a bit and nor should they. They care about what you can do for them. You must demonstrate that. It's really that simple.

After you got all that covered, you can use degrees, certifications, social networking, and the like to inch yourself above those other candidates with similar experience. But many people focus on these things and neglect the experience. Big mistake!

HeroPsycho

Main Event wrote:

That's the thing, the majority of people who aren't working in I.T for x_____ amount of months expect a job.. what happened to that "Computer Support Specialist.... $45,000 after college... 150% job growth in the next 10 years that schools advertise? Do you understand what I'm saying?

If I.T is a field thats in constant change, constant updating of certifications, constant need for people to volunteer to work for free, constant outsourcing and so on they should tell the potential new student exactly how the field operates.

They don't, they drag you in with lies and when you finish and owe big bucks you aren't working and the stress kicks in. People expect it... and they should expect to start off at $45,000 if that's what is planted all over the schools, television ads, radio and more.

But that's not the case. Why should I volunteer to work for free when I have bills to pay?

Those Computer Support Specialist positions right after college still exist. The issue is you have what I call IT roadkill who are competing for those jobs along side fresh college grads. What it takes to get those jobs has changed, and no one has adapted.

I don't remember the last time I've met someone in one of those positions who truly knows Microsoft Office for example, yet they're constantly using and providing support for Microsoft Office. If you had the typical skillset of someone applying for that job and actually knew Office, you'd most likely easily get the job.

Point here is differentiate yourself for the positions you are aiming for.

Also, tech schools are businesses, mmkay? They're out to make money, so they will say those kinds of things to generate business. And those types of claims aren't outrageous for those who stay current, work hard, and perform. Not that I attended one of those schools, but I've had 39% salary growth over the last four years alone.

Why should you volunteer? Well, one of the ways I got experience was do networking and computer work for local churches when I first began transitioning into IT. No way I'd have the knowledge I needed to get the jobs I ended up with had I not done that.

dagger1x

The people complaining on the dice boards are mostly Software Developers, programmers, engineers with Computer Science degrees etc...They have a legitimate b1tch because they are facing political and corporate environments that are conspiring to groosly reduce their salaries by importing and outsourcing for cheap labor alternatives. The whole H1B visa and Indian recruiting companies like TATA and winpro are a reality that is stealing the livelyhoods of these professionals. Imagine if you spent 100 grand and survived the demanding rigors of an Engineering degree only to graduate and find that you can not break into the industry for which you studied. Educated professional Americans demand to be compensated at a rate that is fair where the foreign workers will do more work for less pay making them very attractive to employers. There is a big scheme afoot to increase the professional visa catagories to flood the progamming and engineering fields to drive down wages. It is a complicated issue that I cant cover completely but the follwing link to a video will illustrate part of the problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

The problem with the dice forums is they like to include tech support and admin work in their big pity party and these fields do not belong in the argument. As pointed out here some support admin types never went to college at all and replacing somone to deal with the dumb blonde who cant remember their password doesnt take an engineering degree (im being facetious with that). Ive tried to point this out to the programmers/developers over there but they seem to have no idea how it works at our level of IT. They like to argue that the next generation of support will be replaced by plug & play networks. When I counter with the fact that Longhorn Vista 2008 server require the same support as previous NOSs they dont have an argument and go away.

Myself, I graduated with an AAS a few years ago and have been driving a bus for over 3 years putting my wife through school. She graduated in December with a BS in accounting with a 4.0 GPA, she aced the entire program. As you would expect she has alot of opportunities and we have made a decision and will be moving in the summer to a medium sized city in the midwest. The rural area I live in now there is little to no opportunities in IT, especially entry level. During school I worked a couple of internships and I have been supporting the Small Business server where I currently work for the last couple of years. When I look in the various job banks in the city where I will be relocating for entry level tech support it seems like they are writing the job descriptions after looking at my resume. There are many entry level jobs with all kinds of certification, education and experience requirements including a high school diploma and an A+ cert. The pay for the lower end jobs isnt the best but you have to start somewhere and thats what I intend to do. I will cherry pick for a while but if I have to Ill start out at best buy or circuit city

what ever it takes

Netstudent

YOu know, it is possible to find jobs in other cities from which you live. I lived in Huntsville, AL and was driving to Nashville TN (4 hour round trip) for school 3 days a week. I had to find a job in nashville so I could move up here and stop driving. I started hitting up every career bank i knew about. I even used my school's career center. I did have a degree and a cert. , but I got a job that was 2 hours away from where I lived. I had to drive to Nashville just for the inetrview 3 times. 3 part interview.

I had to live in a hotel room and spent all my savings on a hotel for 2 weeks untill I could get my first paycheck to get an APT. When I interviewed, the employer saw that I was willing to move and sacrifice, if I were given the opportunity. So they gave me the job.

So don't think just because you don't have much money, that you can't find jobs in other areas. When an employer sees that you are willing to move your life for the job, they will be more inclined to help you out.

Now I'm about to have a another job to boot and a B.S degree. Theres no secret to being successful and finding a career. The common denominator is hard work and sacrifice. Good things hapen to people who work hard, whether it's directly or indirectly related to that hard work. It all works out in the long run.

newagespidey

I am 42 and about a year and ago, I decided I despised my job working retail. I decided to go to the local community college and get an AS in IT. I am almost done with school. I have just two more semesters.

Someone at school mentioned Dice.com and after reading the forums, I wanted to kick myself in the a55 for wasting my time going to school. Its all doom and gloom. DON'T GO INTO IT. The only jobs available are non-jobs. The SF bay area has people with Master degrees, 32 years of experience , and 12 different certs and they are living on the streets or/and working at Home Depot.

Once I dug a bit deeper, I saw I think their problem is. They aren't happy with a job, they want a job thats going to pay 100,000 a year with 10 pounds of benefits. I have read threads where they say they would turn down a job making 45k a year. Who in their right mind would do that. This past year, I made around 21k, I would punch my sister in the throat for a job making 45k.

silentc1015

newagespidey wrote:

I am 42 and about a year and ago, I decided I despised my job working retail. I decided to go to the local community college and get an AS in IT. I am almost done with school. I have just two more semesters.

Someone at school mentioned Dice.com and after reading the forums, I wanted to kick myself in the a55 for wasting my time going to school. Its all doom and gloom. DON'T GO INTO IT. The only jobs available are non-jobs. The SF bay area has people with Master degrees, 32 years of experience , and 12 different certs and they are living on the streets or/and working at Home Depot.

Once I dug a bit deeper, I saw I think their problem is. They aren't happy with a job, they want a job thats going to pay 100,000 a year with 10 pounds of benefits. I have read threads where they say they would turn down a job making 45k a year. Who in their right mind would do that. This past year, I made around 21k, I would punch my sister in the throat for a job making 45k.

Those people don't know what they're talking about. I've had a thriving career in IT w/ no degree in 3 vastly different geographic regions. If you're willing to work hard, and it sounds like you are, you can create a wonderful career in IT for yourself and actually make $100k+ in the future. Those people on the dice board are naysayers. Don't let them drag you down or keep you from trying.

c0d3_w0lf

newagespidey wrote:

... I would punch my sister in the throat for a job making 45k.

Best...line...evar. I loled when I read it.

In any case, I agree with the majority posting in this thread. It's not THAT hard to get a job in IT, if you're willing to do everything it takes to get it. Which includes hard work and sacrifice. I was originally going to go into programming, but since I love programming a lot, I decided that I didn't really want doing it as a job to ruin it for me (I've heard SOOOO many stories about people doing coding for a living and losing their love of it as a hobby), so I figured I'd go the networking route, etch out a decent living there, and do all my game dev on the side, as a hobby. I won't get to work on super-huge-awesome-cool projects, but I'll get the satisfaction of making the game exactly the way I want it. Networking isn't my most favorite thing in the world, but I do enjoy it and there are lots of fun challenges when it comes to troubleshooting

Main Event

silentc1015 wrote:

Main Event wrote:

That's the thing, the majority of people who aren't working in I.T for x_____ amount of months expect a job.. what happened to that "Computer Support Specialist.... $45,000 after college... 150% job growth in the next 10 years that schools advertise? Do you understand what I'm saying?

If I.T is a field thats in constant change, constant updating of certifications, constant need for people to volunteer to work for free, constant outsourcing and so on they should tell the potential new student exactly how the field operates.

They don't, they drag you in with lies and when you finish and owe big bucks you aren't working and the stress kicks in. People expect it... and they should expect to start off at $45,000 if that's what is planted all over the schools, television ads, radio and more.

But that's not the case. Why should I volunteer to work for free when I have bills to pay? I don't want to move back in with my mother, I want to drive a BMW some day, I want to own a home some day, do I have time to answer a ad for a 10 hour assignment from a company that will get big bucks for the contract and pay me a measly $15 dollars per hour and never call me back again? Can I complete with a MCSE for a temporary assignment setting up a network?

To be honest, why in the world is a MCSE taking that type of job? He/she should be doing wayyy better. It's that bad in I.T, MCSE are working customer service jobs that pay $10.00 per hour... heck, the money they spent to get certified is huge!! and they're making $10 bucks and stressed out.

Heck... I got my A+ and N+ for free from my local workforce one... unfortunately a couple black guys who I went to school with paid $3500!!! to get the same certifications!!!! and these are very entry level certifications and when they asked student services about helping them find a job the answer they received was "have you tried moving to another area"?

Seriously, is that what you're asking me? I must move somewhere else and work a job with a huge possibility of getting laid off... and then what? do I start all over again?

When I can get the same 2 year degree in a much more stable field like Nursing and have a much more fair share and better chance at stable employment. Even a police officer here in Florida can make $50k a year with overtime and that's a very stable field.

I.T is a good field for those who are tolerate and will do the required steps that it takes for success but for many it's not something stable and it's full of lies... I think we need to be honest about that. I don't know about you but what I hear at the schools and on the television is wayyy different than what I hear from the experts on the forums....

I've got no sympathy for you here at all. I dropped out of college and now I'm making about $90k/year at age 25. All I did was work very hard, embrace change, and seize every opportunity that was presented to me. I'd advise you to stop complaining about reality and adapt to it or choose a different field. There are many fields where you're literally guaranteed a job if you performed well in school. I know many civil engineers, jobs in medicine, etc... Those fields are VERY different than IT. It sounds to me like you're in the wrong field!

I think I am as well as with that said the admin can delete my account since I don't see a need to continue on. I'm sorry but the field is mostly a joke in my eyes and the eyes of many others. I wish you guys all the sucess in the world with this field that you call a career.

I'm still somewhat young (33) I'll do something a bit more stable in my opinion.

I wish you all the best, the admin can delete the account and if I have another account under the same ip address, delete that one too...

dynamik

Main Event wrote:

I think I am as well as with that said the admin can delete my account since I don't see a need to continue on. I'm sorry but the field is mostly a joke in my eyes and the eyes of many others. I wish you guys all the sucess in the world with this field that you call a career.

I'm still somewhat young (33) I'll do something a bit more stable in my opinion.

I wish you all the best, the admin can delete the account and if I have another account under the same ip address, delete that one too...

I don't understand why you keep coming back to the forums after you've thrown in the towel. If you want a less volatile career, that's you choice, and we all respect that and wish you well. It's annoying when you keep whining and spreading this FUD for no legitimate reason. IMHO, it doesn't look like you put a lot of effort into pursuing an IT career over the last nine years. Complete novices can easily obtain an A+ and Network+ in 6-12 months. What did you spend the rest of the time doing? How did you differentiate yourself from all the other people applying for IT jobs? I spent three years doing difficult physical labor and operating heavy machinery in a small business that let me handle their computers and networking before I got my break. Go read Turgon's thread about his work on the CCIE lab to see how much effort he's putting in to just one part of one certification. You don't just get handed a great career for earning a couple of entry-level certifications. Maybe the problem lies with your expectations, not the IT field. If you had some personal hardships or setbacks during that time, I sincerely feel for you and understand. However, when you just blame the field, you're really putting the blame for your lack of success on your own shoulders. This field is constantly expanding. Technology is become more diverse and complex. There is no reason for those who work hard and persevere to not succeed. There is no reason why they will not continue to do so well into the future.

dagger1x

I still think the guys on Dice have legitmate reasons for being negative. Again if I spent 4 to 5 years to get through a rigorous Engineering cirriculum I'd expect 45 to 50 Gs entry level with quick promotion and advancement to 70 and 80 up. My wife just graduated with a Bachelors in Accounting and shes getting that entry level with that kind of promotion potential. IMO the mathematics required for an Engineering degree makes that degree more difficult than Acct.

So these guys are standing bye and watching corporations import cheap labor and out source work as their salries decline and opportunites vanish. Im not talkin admin and support im talking software Engineering, devlopment, programming fields. I support free trade and to an extent globalization but when it hits a field or career so hard that Americans suffer then im willing listen to those complaints.

shednik

dagger1x wrote:

I still think the guys on Dice have legitmate reasons for being negative. Again if I spent 4 to 5 years to get through a rigorous Engineering cirriculum I'd expect 45 to 50 Gs entry level with quick promotion and advancement to 70 and 80 up. My wife just graduated with a Bachelors in Accounting and shes getting that entry level with that kind of promotion potential. IMO the mathematics required for an Engineering degree makes that degree more difficult than Acct.

So these guys are standing bye and watching corporations import cheap labor and out source work as their salries decline and opportunites vanish. Im not talkin admin and support im talking software Engineering, devlopment, programming fields. I support free trade and to an extent globalization but when it hits a field or career so hard that Americans suffer then im willing listen to those complaints.

Starting salary's obviously depend on the location but no one is going to start someone out of school with a high salary just because they have a piece of paper...I completed my BS in 3.5 years worked for 2 years of that time in IT making under 25k...but I picked up the certs I have and learned everything I could...why? because I love this work and worked my ass off to get where I am today...I was offered a job a month after graduation for 46k but not because of any of my certifications or my degree alone...it's because in my interviews with them I showed them my passion for IT, my work ethic to meet my goals(degree and certs), and the knowledge and skills I would bring to their organization. I'm 1 of 20 people out of 300 interviewed that were just hired at my company, like others have said you need to want to be successful and have the drive to continue your education to be the best. This is why when I got into my job tomorrow for my last day before I begin my new job I know I left and no one else did because no one else there cares to better themselves and they won't move up until they put the work in.