Crushing Blow to HD-DVD

royal

Netflix goes Blu-Ray exclusive: http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/11/netflix-picks-blu-ray-good-luck-renting-an-hd-dvd-soon/
Bestbuy to start promoting Blu-Ray as the HD format of the future: http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/11/best-buys-pushing-blu-ray-to-the-front/

It's pretty obvious that Blu-Ray is the winner. No idea why Toshiba won't let go of the HD-DVD format. And no idea why Universal and Paramount are still not going Blu-Ray, or at least make both formats.

I just wish Toshiba, Universal, and Paramount would switch so there will be much faster market adoption resulting in more demand, more supply thus resulting in lower prices.

Claymoore

You can thank Warner Brothers for killing a presently superior technology. They supported both formats, including trying to make discs that were HD-DVD on one side and Blu-ray on the other. They decided that they could really only support one format, so they tried to talk Fox into abandoning blu-ray and going with HD-DVD. Sony stepped in and supposedly offered Warners about $130 Million - not much money in the long run, but they probably also offered them a MUCH cheaper licensing rate so that a switch to Blu-ray would pay off in the long run.

The three studios you have to follow are Warners, Fox and MGM - they have the largest back catalogs of movies, so their support is crucial. MGM is owned by Sony so they are obviously going to support Blu-ray. Fox and Disney probably chose Blu-ray because of the expected dominance of the PS3 in this generation of the console wars. Warners originally supported both, but was probably leaning towards HD-DVD due to loyalty to Toshiba for the original DVD format and the patents that made them both a lot of money. Interestingly, in order to get Fox to support the DVD format (and pay royalties to Warners for the patents they owned), Rupert Murdoch got Warners to agree to carry the Fox News Network on their cable systems. Sony didn't have any DVD patents, and we know how the VHS vs Beta battle turned out, so they really needed Blu-ray to win. Hence the cash up front to Warners and probably a discount on licensing as well.

Microsoft was the big player behind HD-DVD and they probably offered something similar to Universal and Paramount/Dream Works to make them stay HD-DVD exclusive. The big loser in this is us because we had to deal with higher disc and player prices while these companies fought. Now that there is a 'winner', hopefully the player and dics prices will drop enough to be widely accepted - and then drop even more.

By the way, I own both formats and love the 1080p picture and 24fps playback.

GT-Rob

Wasn't beta technically a better format? But for some reason VHS was the one that caught on.

royal

GT-Rob wrote:

Wasn't beta technically a better format? But for some reason VHS was the one that caught on.

From what I heard, VHS won because the Adult Industry adopted VHS.

snadam

I saw this yesterday and It really ticks me off...

From reading different articles over time, I was under the impression that they "...will let the consumer decide which format will win"; and here you go having one of the biggest media retailers endorse one format over the other...

I don't see how we can choose when they're practically shoving one format in front of us...
Im also not partial to either format (although I though HD-DVD was going to be cheaper), but its nice to have a choice.


Oh well, that PS3 purchase is looking more and more viable; just a sorry excuse to get a new toy

dynamik

HD-DVD had the adult industry as well. It was only recently that companies started using Blu-Ray.

And for anyone who's curious, I'm not an avid **** collector (sorry to burst your bubble); I just read about it on Digg.

RTmarc

I've read quite a few articles that speculated that the **** industry doesn't matter any more when it comes to DVD disbursement. Most everything has moved to online delivery and therefore their backing didn't mean much when compared to early 80s when the only option for viewing said material.

JDMurray

One of the big factors that is rarely mentioned is the production cost for Blu-ray versus HD-DVD discs. It is apparently much more expensive to produce Blu-ray discs than HD-DVD discs. This is the major reason why the adult video industry went with HD-DVD (everything is about cost and profits, isn't it?). I'm not sure if it's the per-disc production that costs more or the initial production start-up cost or both. The Blu-ray player hardware is more expensive, but mass-production and consumer-adoption will bring those prices down in a hurry.

Claymoore

RTmarc wrote:

I've read quite a few articles that speculated that the xxxxxxx industry doesn't matter any more when it comes to DVD disbursement. Most everything has moved to online delivery and therefore their backing didn't mean much when compared to early 80s when the only option for viewing said material.

Actually the adult industry still matters. Did you know that Disney won't allow their DVDs to be pressed and packaged at a factory that also services the adult industry? Although I doubt it has as much to do with corporate morality as much as trying to avoid a Tyler Durden- type incident.

One of the reasons the adult industry (and other studios) chose HD-DVD was the video encoding codec from Microsoft was actually better (crazy - I know) and more stable than the Java based codec for Blu-ray. Blu-ray discs had to have more capacity because they were still using the old MPEG-2 encoding while the bugs were being worked out in the new Java encoder. The discs were full of video and had no room for the menus and interactive features that HD-DVD had all along. Also, the ability to have combo DVD and HD-DVD was appealing because you could buy one disc and watch it on the big screen or flip it over and watch it in the bedroom. And if there ever was an industry that understood product turnover and market penetration...

snadam

Sony PS3 seen leading hardware growth in 2008

Notice the correlation with blu-ray catching on and PS3 sales?

Presonally, I think one of the main reasons blu-ray is catching on is because if it doesnt, Sony is really F'd. You think sony is paying off retailers to promote blu-ray over hd-dvd? I wouldnt be surprised.

JDMurray

For a long time now the most inexpensive Blu-ray player you could buy was the PS3. I know people that have never played a game in their PS3.

snadam

JDMurray wrote:

For a long time now the most inexpensive Blu-ray player you could buy was the PS3. I know people that have never played a game in their PS3.

Still is the least expensive, correct?

image what would happen to sony if blu-ray took a ****?

royal

FYI, a couple days ago, Walmart announced it's going Blu-Ray exclusive.

Toshiba just announced it's pulling the plug on HD-DVD.

JDMurray

royal wrote:

Toshiba just announced it's pulling the plug on HD-DVD.

Anyone want to buy a slightly used Toshiba HD-2A HD-DVD player?

snadam

JDMurray wrote:

royal wrote:

Toshiba just announced it's pulling the plug on HD-DVD.

Anyone want to buy a slightly used Toshiba HD-2A HD-DVD player?

no kidding....its un-officially official, Blu-Ray seems to have won the format wars...

royal

snadam wrote:

JDMurray wrote:

royal wrote:

Toshiba just announced it's pulling the plug on HD-DVD.

Anyone want to buy a slightly used Toshiba HD-2A HD-DVD player?

no kidding....its un-officially official, Blu-Ray seems to have won the format wars...

Rumors are that Toshiba will announce HD-DVD's death tomorrow.

Also, Samsung said they're going to start focusing more on Blu-Ray instead of HD-DVD. That's even more bad news for HD-DVD.

Mishra

Kinda weird how format wars works.

royal

Well, Toshiba just announced it. It's official:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/live-from-toshibas-hd-dvd-press-conference-in-tokyo/
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/official-hd-dvd-dead-and-buried-format-war-is-over/

snadam

royal wrote:

Well, Toshiba just announced it. It's official:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/live-from-toshibas-hd-dvd-press-conference-in-tokyo/
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/official-hd-dvd-dead-and-buried-format-war-is-over/

Does this 'format war' include Media storage and XBOX360? Ive heard from different places that its the whole media enchilada, and then some say its just for home media (movies).

wiseguy

[Does this 'format war' include Media storage and XBOX360? Ive heard from different places that its the whole media enchilada, and then some say its just for home media (movies).]

I've been wondering about how this effects the XBOX 360 also and found some articles on PCWorld:

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/006502.html

http://blogs.pcworld.com/gameon/archives/006504.html [/quote]

Ahriakin

The 360 natively uses DVD, you had to buy an external drive to get HD-DVD so they'll just release a Blu-Ray drive at some point in the future instead, after that they just need to update the codecs onboard (if any are even needed).

snadam

Ahriakin wrote:

The 360 natively uses DVD, you had to buy an external drive to get HD-DVD so they'll just release a Blu-Ray drive at some point in the future instead, after that they just need to update the codecs onboard (if any are even needed).

wow, I was under the impression that the integrated drive was an HD-DVD drive. Apparently I was wrong. Some games are now claiming 1080p resolution; which I thought was not possible with standard DVD.

dynamik

Why? You can render the geometry at whatever resolution you want. It has nothing to do with what media you store it on. It's all mathematical. The textures are what takes up all the storage space. You could make an argument that a higher capacity disc could provider higher-res textures, but when both systems only have 512mb of memory shared between the system and gpu, what's the point of gigs of textures? If a game on DVDs need more storage space, it can simply be split over multiple discs.

snadam

dynamik wrote:

Why? You can render the geometry at whatever resolution you want. It has nothing to do with what media you store it on. It's all mathematical. The textures are what takes up all the storage space. You could make an argument that a higher capacity disc could provider higher-res textures, but when both systems only have 512mb of memory shared between the system and gpu, what's the point of gigs of textures? If a game on DVDs need more storage space, it can simply be split over multiple discs.

that was my argument; loosely based, but my argument nonetheless. Since DVD has a significantly lower storage capacity than HD-DVD, I was under the impression that DVD could not conveniently support a full-fledged game on a single disk at 1080p. I thought that was the whole point of 'upgrading' the media format. And yes, I do recall the days of old (PSX) storing entire games on a 4-disc set .

I don't care either way. That was just my understanding of it. I obviously was misinformed. It changes my perspective. However, I could have sworn seeing those HD-DVD logos on the game-box jacket though!

Claymoore

Now that Blu-ray won, who lost?

Honestly, nobody - as long as you didn't buy a stand-alone player. I'm not getting rid of my 360 Elite or PS3 anytime soon, so I can watch both formats for years. Toshiba was losing money on the players, hoping to make it up on licensing fees like game consoles do, but now that they are no longer producing HD-DVD their profitability will actually increase. Toshiba owns 51% of the Samsung Storage joint venture that makes and markets Samsung's Blu-Ray players. Toshiba also helped develop and now manufactures the Cell processor for the PS3. Microsoft was originally criticized for not integrating an HD-DVD drive into the 360 Elite, but now that looks like a smart decision because they can just sell a Blu-Ray external drive.

All this fight really did was drive the consumer away from physical media and towards digital downloads. Brighthouse has expanded their HD On-demand -it used to be 2 movies and 3 Imax ports - and now some movies are released to DVD and On-Demand on the same day. I can also download HD movies from Xbox Live and now Apple TV offers HD. And then there is the rumored set-top box from Netflix and LG. An HD-DVD/Blu-ray combo player with a hard drive for downloading any HD movie from Netflix on demand? Sounds like a great deal. And if Netflix offers the service as a stand-alone app that I can install on either my PS3 or Xbox, well that's even better.

RTmarc

snadam wrote:

Ahriakin wrote:

The 360 natively uses DVD, you had to buy an external drive to get HD-DVD so they'll just release a Blu-Ray drive at some point in the future instead, after that they just need to update the codecs onboard (if any are even needed).

wow, I was under the impression that the integrated drive was an HD-DVD drive. Apparently I was wrong. Some games are now claiming 1080p resolution; which I thought was not possible with standard DVD.

When Microsoft was releasing the Elite 360 model they were asked about why the didn't integrate a next generation player. The guy over development of the project basically came out and said that they were unsure of the future of the HD-DVD format so why would they embrace a technology that may end up becoming obsolete. They did push HD-DVD for various reasons and created an add-on for the HD-DVD player but the demise of that format would not cause a system-wide change.

dynamik

Too be honest, the GPUs in the 360 and PS3 are far too weak to provide quality 1080p rendering, regardless of media storage space. What's 1080p? Virtua Tennis? Many high-action games can't even hit 720p with decent performace: http://www.joystiq.com/2007/09/28/halo-3-not-hd-runs-at-640p-pixel-counters-claim/

And games are already being split over multiple DVDs. Blue Dragon was three discs, and Lost Odyssey is four (which is still probably much cheaper to produce than blu-ray).

The only thing storage space adds to this console gen, is the ability to include more pre-rendered high-def video.

In getting slightly back towards the original topic, the 360 may also add a blu-ray player at some point in the future. I've seen stories that say it could be out as soon as May.

snadam

dynamik wrote:

Too be honest, the GPUs in the 360 and PS3 are far too weak to provide quality 1080p rendering, regardless of media storage space. What's 1080p? Virtua Tennis? Many high-action games can't even hit 720p with decent performace: http://www.joystiq.com/2007/09/28/halo-3-not-hd-runs-at-640p-pixel-counters-claim/

And games are already being split over multiple DVDs. Blue Dragon was three discs, and Lost Odyssey is four (which is still probably much cheaper to produce than blu-ray).

The only thing storage space adds to this console gen, is the ability to include more pre-rendered high-def video.

In getting slightly back towards the original topic, the 360 may also add a blu-ray player at some point in the future. I've seen stories that say it could be out as soon as May.

Well yes, if the GPU creates a bottleneck, then it really doesn't matter what format the media is. Again, I was unaware that the 360/PS3 had that big of a bottleneck. Lost odyssey is 4 disks? CRAP!

I have also heard that a blu-ray player is in the works for the 360.

JDMurray

snadam wrote:

I have also heard that a blu-ray player is in the works for the 360.

The current plan is the Blue-ray drive for the Xbox 720 will be external, like the HD-DVD drive for the Xbox 360. I don't think the processor in the 360 can handle sustained 1080p playback for Blu-ray movies. Maybe the drive will be capped at 720p for the 360.

dynamik

The HD-DVD add-on device allows 1080p output. Are you referring to the fact that Blu-Ray has stronger DRM than HD-DVD? I don't think that would be too much for the 360 though. Blu-Ray is included in laptops that are nowhere near as powerful as the 360 (tri-core 3.2Ghz PPC CPU).

Do you have a source for the external Blu-Ray drive on next Xbox? I thought it was pretty much guaranteed that Sony and MS would include high-def optical drives with the next generation. People threw a fit that MS didn't do it this round; I can't imagine them sticking with DVD through another generation. It's barely been sufficient for this round. Plus, with an estimated 2011-2013 time-frame for the next console, the cost of going with Blu-ray instead of DVD would probably only be a few dollars.

BeaverC32

All this fight really did was drive the consumer away from physical media and towards digital downloads.

I don't think it was this "fight" that drove consumers away -- I think it is the pricing. $30 for a freakin' movie? I'll save my money and wait for prices to decrease.