An unemployed CCIE

My friend knows a guy who discovered that he really loved networking, so some time ago he started his CCNA, and about a year ago he finally finished up with his CCIE. He's really bright and in his late twenties (it helps that he's single, too, with time to burn). He went straight through, which is why he was able to finish up so quickly. The downside is - he can't find a job. He's overqualified for CCNA-level positions (why would he want one anyway?), and the employers offering CCIE positions want years of experience to accompany the cert. He realized that he may have to settle for a CCNP-level job, and he's been able to get a few interviews (not many), but again, he has no *paid* work experience, so he keeps getting passed over by folks with lesser certs + more experience.

My friend said it's been about a year since his job hunt began with no job offer in all that time. He's now seriously talking about changing careers, if you can call what he has now a career. He's been interested in mainframe circuitry - whatever that is - and he's looking into that and abandoning the networking field completely in disgust.

It's a pity, and I guess the moral is - make sure you have experience, or your cert(s) will be as valuable as a wooden nickel.

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networker050184

Why is that a pity? The certifications are to verify your experience not substitute.

Would you let a doctor that never touched a live human give you an operation? I wouldn't. I'd rather he worked his way up the ranks assisting with operations along the way before he finally did one of his own.

Its the same concept with IT. Just because you finish the education doesn't mean you are ready to jump off the deep end.

Slowhand

Honestly, he needs to keep looking. He may have to take a pay-cut for a while, maybe even do a "lesser" job for a year or two in order to help him pad his resume and build up that networking experience. As a CCIE, he shouldn't have a hard time picking up what he needs as he works, and expanding out from "just" the CCIE-curriculum is going to be his best bet. He just needs to remember that he's doing this in reverse-order, certification first and then experience. The amount of time he needs to spend is going to be the same, if not slightly shorter.

Either way, he needs to keep at it. As a lab-rat, he's going to find it frustrating, but there's a pretty good chance that some company or another is going to take the chance on him, simply by the virtue that he's a CCIE, and he'll be on his way to building up his career. Above all, if he's gotten no job-offers, he's setting his sights too high to start with. He can't hope to go for Sr. Network Engineer positions at this point, just like an MD couldn't hope to be a chief surgeon right out of medical school.

Crunchyhippo

networker050184 wrote:

Why is that a pity? The certifications are to verify your experience not substitute.

Would you let a doctor that never touched a live human give you an operation? I wouldn't. I'd rather he worked his way up the ranks assisting with operations along the way before he finally did one of his own.

Its the same concept with IT. Just because you finish the education doesn't mean you are ready to jump off the deep end.

Yeah - what an idiot he was. He deserves to be unemployed. How dare he have no experience!? Being able to get a job with just an education - what was he thinking?

I hope he doesn't read this board. You'd be like salt rubbed in a wound. What a miserable advisor you'd be.

networker050184

I never said he doesn't deserve a job. Does he deserve the typical CCIE level job? Probably not. There is so much you learn from actually doing the job rather than studying. There is also so much more involved in a job that isn't covered in any certification track such as people skills. Someone like him who has never had a job in the industry wouldn't understand that.

I probably wouldn't be a very good adviser though. Good thing I picked IT and not high school career counselor

seuss_ssues

Doing training or teaching is always an option for him.

Or why not a job at cisco. If anyone is going to respect just the cert without the experience i would assume that they would.

Seems he may just be putting his expectations too high at the moment. He did acheive a truely amazing feat by passing the ccie but he still hasnt put the time in the trenches.

bighornsheep

I find this quite hard to believe, as hard as it is to find a job at this day and age, there are very good reasons why qualified people are without jobs.

This topic of "I have skills, no experience, how to get a job" is well discussed on the web, but for the case of your friend in particular, I am sure there are Cisco partners out there who would be willing to hire an inexperienced CCIE just so they could satisfy the partner program requirement and enjoy the benefit of higher level routing at TAC.

HeroPsycho

Crunchyhippo wrote:

Yeah - what an idiot he was. He deserves to be unemployed. How dare he have no experience!? Being able to get a job with just an education - what was he thinking?

I hope he doesn't read this board. You'd be like salt rubbed in a wound. What a miserable advisor you'd be.

You need to grow thicker skin. Networker made a very valid point, in fact spot on, concerning why your friend is having difficulty finding a job.

mikej412

Crunchyhippo wrote:

My friend knows a guy

Right, a "friend of a frend story"

Is that the same guy who gave you this information in this thread
http://www.techexams.net/forums/ccie/27556-michael-purcell-worlds-first-sextuple-ccie.html#post219012

Crunchyhippo wrote:

Just like some of us with only certifications, Michael Purcell is having trouble finding a job - he has no experience.

He's been advised by the temp agencies that he may have to get a job starting at the CCNA level, then work his way up. His credentials are impressive, but with no real-world experience, no one seems to want to take a chance on him. You know how it goes.

Do you have an approximate date and CCIE #? We don't need the specific name, number or date -- round of the guy's number to the nearest hundred and just give us the month/year they passed the lab.

seuss_ssues wrote:

Or why not a job at cisco. If anyone is going to respect just the cert without the experience i would assume that they would.

Cisco is the one that says CCIE candidates are

strongly encouraged to have three to five years of job experience before attempting certification.

A certification defines a level of skill and knowledge someone SUPPOSEDLY possesses.

Crunchy -- here's two questions for you. Who would you hire?

1. A company had a CCNA level position to fill and has 2 job candidates.

Someone studies and learns the material for a CCNA -- and can demonstrate the CCNA knowledge and skills during job interviews.

Someone else fails the CCNA -- uses **** to finally pass -- and can't demonstrate the CCNA knowledge and skills during job interviews.

Both have CCNAs -- who would you hire?

2. Another company is looking for a Senior Network Engineer.

There is a CCNP with 5 years of experience, excellent references, great technical skills, and excellent people skills. They've demonstrated their mastery of the topics needed to succeed at the job and everyone who interviewed them said they'd like to work with this person.

There's a CCNP with no experience. They dumped their CCNA and couldn't get a job. They ignored everyones advice to get a job with there CCNA and get some experience and work on their skills. They figured the world would owe a CCNP with no experience a job. They dumped their CCNP exams and in the few interviews they did get they couldn't demonstrate the skill and knowledge required for the position. No one who interviewed this person was impressed and didn't think they could make a contribution. No one wanted to work with this person, since they figured they'ed have to do this guy's job while he tried to actually learn the material he had previously dumped.

Someone with a CCIE, who actually studied and earned the CCIE (and didn't join a group who shared their lab experiences and questions

) is looking for a job. They have no real world experience. They have no references. They have no idea how to deal with customer expectations. They have no idea what they'd be required to do. The people who interviewed this person says they appear to have the technical knowledge required to pass a CCIE Lab, but don't have any idea about real world problems or real world best practices. Several of the CCNPs who interviewed the CCIE are also working on their CCIEs -- and stated they wouldn't feel comfortable working with someone "ranked higher" than them but who knows less. Every existing network engineer knows more than this guy and would quit if this guy was hired -- customers would leave -- and the company would go out of business.

Crunchy -- Who would you hire.....
If the CCIE was asking for a CCIE level salary?

Crunchy -- Who would you hire.....
if the CCIE was willing to accept the same salary as the CCNP candidates?

bighornsheep wrote:

I am sure there are Cisco partners out there who would be willing to hire an inexperienced CCIE just so they could satisfy the partner program requirement and enjoy the benefit of higher level routing at TAC.

I agree -- and even said that is this thread
http://www.techexams.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30281

mikej412 wrote:

People with the knowledge and skills can usually find a job -- and move up quickly.

The Certification is just something that increases the odds of your resume being pulled from a pile -- it's not a magic ticket to job. Even someone with no experience who gets a CCIE through study and hard work (and is willing to work cheap due to lack of real world experience) may still be a tempting employee to a Cisco Business Partner who needs a CCIE to move up on the Cisco Business Partner food chain.

astorrs

Yup, anything beyond entry-level certs with no experience is a big no no. Your friend is the prime example of a "paper cert".

His best bet is to take a job at an intermediate level and build some experience for a couple of years, or as others have suggested he could consider teaching. Many of the trainers out there have all sorts of certs, most of which are accompanied with no practical work experience (or at least what they had was years ago - and probably not in the technology they are teaching). I've met some exceptions to this, but by and large when you have someone with the latest Microsoft, Red Hat, Citrix, Cisco, Juniper, NetApp and EMC certs all at the intermediate/expert levels they are probably a trainer - no one else can get that many opportunities to really work with all those technologies to that level in a job.

I'm not knocking trainers - they have an important job to do - but I wouldn't hire one to architect the network or server infrastructure of a client.

remerolle

One of the reasons I did not go for my CCIE lab during this last semester (my last semester of college) is somewhat due to this fear. Though I do have a great amount of experience in IT and networking, I never had professional experience with Cisco products. Even though you could count my lab administrator job on campus as experience with advanced Cisco products, I feel that part time for one year tutor and working on Cisco/HP/IBM equipment was not a good enough to back up any Cisco professional experience. Then again, it also made more sense for me to relax due to the fact that for almost 5 semesters I was purely focused on my Cisco curriculum pounding out long hours on my school's racks when everyone was partying. Furthermore, the fact that my first job post gradation has stated they would pay for my CCIE Lab attempts. I figured I needed to cool down, and relax until work started. Having a CCNP on the other hand has given me some weird looks from managers at work, but once they ask me CCNP level questions they realize I know my stuff. I mean studying for the Written really helped me get an even better understanding of the CCNP topics.

I am sure it will all work out for your friend, he just has to be willing to work through this all. Maybe he should try to consult a little if nothing pans out soon.

supertechCETma

Like sands through the hourglass... so are the days of our lives.

Goldmember

I think this story is very true and relates to my experiences immensely.

I have talked to recruiters who will not look at Cisco guys unless they have X amount of experience regardless of the CCIE.
I think a lot of has to do with lack of knowledge of the recruiter and employer and also how they value certs over experience. If I was a recruiter I would take an extremely long look at anyone with a CCIE.

In my mind getting the CCIE is a huge accomplishment, as most people on this forum feel the same way. But I also believe the CCIE has been put on a pedestal that was probably to high for itself.
I remember when I first started and achieved the CCNA 8 years ago, most people thought the CCIE was a doctorate in Networking. As I come to find out between studies and over the years(being a former CCNP, CCNA, and CCDA and knowing a few CCIE's), it cannot be compared to getting a college degree and its not as prestigious as many of us make it out to be.

I believe the CCIE has reached a point where everyone cannot just label CCIE's masters of the field lightly. First off, there are multiple CCIEs(Voice, RS, Security, Design) so this automatically creates a mess for people with less knowledge of the Cisco cert process.

What happens if somebody has a CCIE in R&S, but little or no experience with SEcurity devices(PIX, VPN's, or ASA's). What happens when this person is supposed to be Voice ready?

The CCIE has reached a point where it doesn't automatically give any person a job like it did a few years back. The times have changed like they always do in this field.
I hope people are a little open minded.

Basically the CCIE = nothing but a great personal accomplishment unless the employer or recruiter understand the significance of the cert and where the value can be applied.

The days of CCIE's just walking into 6 figure jobs because of the CCIE alone, and basically walking into any job they want based on the CCIE is pretty much gone. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it won't be a surefire thing like it was years ago.

Goldmember

seuss_ssues

seuss_ssues wrote:

="seuss_ssues"]Or why not a job at cisco. If anyone is going to respect just the cert without the experience i would assume that they would.

Cisco is the one that says CCIE candidates are

strongly encouraged to have three to five years of job experience before attempting certification.

[/quote][/quote]

If your going to be corrected you might as well be corrected by one of the best on these forums. You did make a good point.

I edited my post because in my haste i screwed up all the quotes. This was supposed to be a nod at mike (he is the one that corrected me) and all he does for TE.

mikej412

remerolle wrote:

One of the reasons I did not go for my CCIE lab during this last semester (my last semester of college) is somewhat due to this fear. Though I do have a great amount of experience in IT and networking, I never had professional experience with Cisco products. Even though you could count my lab administrator job on campus as experience with advanced Cisco products, I feel that part time for one year tutor and working on Cisco/HP/IBM equipment was not a good enough to back up any Cisco professional experience.

80% of our CCNP job candidates without experience failed a CCNA level phone interview. The 20% who passed were "college kids." And most of them did internships at some point in their academic career or worked on campus. The great thing about them is that were were able to hire them on at a "CCNA Salary"

Some of the "University Level" CCIE Programs are also including about 500 hours of real world experience through internships -- in addition to the 500-1000 hours lab time usually needed to pass a CCIE Lab Exam. I think we interviewed 2 of those during the last 2-1/2 years -- and we tried to get them at somewhere between CCNA/CCNP level salary -- and someone else offered more $$$.

If you're the "real deal" -- within 2 years you should be able to command a "CCIE Salary."

I guess I should mention.... if I get my CCIE , I'd have to take a BIG pay cut to take a "CCIE JOB"

I've got over 20 years of experience now.

GT-Rob

Mike why are you always so concerned with people's number/pass date? Are you worried he is making this story up?

Anyway, like others said, I don't see how you can be surprised by this. Would you hire someone at 120k/year to manage you million dollar network, and they have never touched a live environment?

nel

I wouldnt go for such a high level cert without the experiance. Although it is a good personal achievement.

Surely he will be able to pick up a na/np position though? maybe on a slightly lower wage?

So would all the cisco guys not recommend going for ccnp without experiance either? as many people seem to do so (possibly including me

)

Mishra

To the OP. What do you expect from the CCIE? You have made multiple posts trying to bash its reputation and about experience vs CCIE. Really what is the CCIE to you?

Crunchyhippo

mikej412 wrote:

Crunchyhippo wrote:

My friend knows a guy

Right, a "friend of a frend story"

Is that the same guy who gave you this information in this thread
http://www.techexams.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30281

Crunchyhippo wrote:

Just like some of us with only certifications, Michael Purcell is having trouble finding a job - he has no experience.

He's been advised by the temp agencies that he may have to get a job starting at the CCNA level, then work his way up. His credentials are impressive, but with no real-world experience, no one seems to want to take a chance on him. You know how it goes.

Do you have an approximate date and CCIE #? We don't need the specific name, number or date -- round of the guy's number to the nearest hundred and just give us the month/year they passed the lab.

seuss_ssues wrote:

Or why not a job at cisco. If anyone is going to respect just the cert without the experience i would assume that they would.

Cisco is the one that says CCIE candidates are

strongly encouraged to have three to five years of job experience before attempting certification.

A certification defines a level of skill and knowledge someone SUPPOSEDLY possesses.

Crunchy -- here's two questions for you. Who would you hire?

1. A company had a CCNA level position to fill and has 2 job candidates.

Someone studies and learns the material for a CCNA -- and can demonstrate the CCNA knowledge and skills during job interviews.

Someone else fails the CCNA -- uses **** to finally pass -- and can't demonstrate the CCNA knowledge and skills during job interviews.

Both have CCNAs -- who would you hire?

2. Another company is looking for a Senior Network Engineer.

There is a CCNP with 5 years of experience, excellent references, great technical skills, and excellent people skills. They've demonstrated their mastery of the topics needed to succeed at the job and everyone who interviewed them said they'd like to work with this person.

There's a CCNP with no experience. They dumped their CCNA and couldn't get a job. They ignored everyones advice to get a job with there CCNA and get some experience and work on their skills. They figured the world would owe a CCNP with no experience a job. They dumped their CCNP exams and in the few interviews they did get they couldn't demonstrate the skill and knowledge required for the position. No one who interviewed this person was impressed and didn't think they could make a contribution. No one wanted to work with this person, since they figured they'ed have to do this guy's job while he tried to actually learn the material he had previously dumped.

Someone with a CCIE, who actually studied and earned the CCIE (and didn't join a group who shared their lab experiences and questions ) is looking for a job. They have no real world experience. They have no references. They have no idea how to deal with customer expectations. They have no idea what they'd be required to do. The people who interviewed this person says they appear to have the technical knowledge required to pass a CCIE Lab, but don't have any idea about real world problems or real world best practices. Several of the CCNPs who interviewed the CCIE are also working on their CCIEs -- and stated they wouldn't feel comfortable working with someone "ranked higher" than them but who knows less. Every existing network engineer knows more than this guy and would quit if this guy was hired -- customers would leave -- and the company would go out of business.

Crunchy -- Who would you hire.....
If the CCIE was asking for a CCIE level salary?

Crunchy -- Who would you hire.....
if the CCIE was willing to accept the same salary as the CCNP candidates?

bighornsheep wrote:

I am sure there are Cisco partners out there who would be willing to hire an inexperienced CCIE just so they could satisfy the partner program requirement and enjoy the benefit of higher level routing at TAC.

I agree -- and even said that is this thread
http://www.techexams.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30281

mikej412 wrote:

People with the knowledge and skills can usually find a job -- and move up quickly.

The Certification is just something that increases the odds of your resume being pulled from a pile -- it's not a magic ticket to job. Even someone with no experience who gets a CCIE through study and hard work (and is willing to work cheap due to lack of real world experience) may still be a tempting employee to a Cisco Business Partner who needs a CCIE to move up on the Cisco Business Partner food chain.

I didn't know I was going to have to provide documentation to back up a post, Mike. Just because you feel strongly about it, don't expect me to go out and make phone calls just to satisfy your curiosity.

Yeah, he's a friend of a friend. So what? I thought it was information about a telling trend in this field, albeit to an extreme, which is what made the information readable, IMHO.

FYI, the post on Purcell was a mix of hyperbole and dry humor. I hope you aren't taking that seriously.

You seem to be looking at it from only the employer's POV. Sure, I understand their position, but what about his POV? All that work and money, and when he's done, he can't find a job (yet). I don't imagine he's too sympathetic to the non-hiring employers.

Mishra

Crunchyhippo wrote:

FYI, the post on Purcell was a mix of hyperbole and dry humor. I hope you aren't taking that seriously.

Glad to hear that. You do have a CCIE fetish though. lol

Turgon

astorrs wrote:

Yup, anything beyond entry-level certs with no experience is a big no no. Your friend is the prime example of a "paper cert".

His best bet is to take a job at an intermediate level and build some experience for a couple of years, or as others have suggested he could consider teaching. Many of the trainers out there have all sorts of certs, most of which are accompanied with no practical work experience (or at least what they had was years ago - and probably not in the technology they are teaching). I've met some exceptions to this, but by and large when you have someone with the latest Microsoft, Red Hat, Citrix, Cisco, Juniper, NetApp and EMC certs all at the intermediate/expert levels they are probably a trainer - no one else can get that many opportunities to really work with all those technologies to that level in a job.

I'm not knocking trainers - they have an important job to do - but I wouldn't hire one to architect the network or server infrastructure of a client.

There are some very experienced trainers out there. At the same time many trainers are extremely qualified but shy on field experience. Many are however quite capable of teaching the syllabus they are qualified in. They are encouraged to spend time when not teaching classes on updating certs and getting more accreditations as this helps the profile of the teaching school. So yes, some trainers do amass a lot of certificates very quickly because they are not always teaching, as opposed to running an infrastructure 60 hours a week.

Turgon

Your friend will have to keep plugging away. He has a premium certification there. I work with some extremely capable architects who are non-CCIE's but I still think the track (if they had the time to do it) would expand their horizons tremendously by augmenting their experience. A CCIE and little or no practical experience can be a problem, but I would imagine there would be cisco partners out there would would take a labrat on to beef up the partner status providing the results of the technical interview show promise on the part of the individual. In the late nineties when things boomed a CCIE was a licence to print money, but many of the CCIE's were short of experience on all this new stuff that companies wanted to build out and quickly. They still got hired though and commanded excellent rates, but many muddled along. Today, the networking field has matured and companies have experience of being burned on projects. It's not at all unrealistic for companies to expect to see experience on a CV for a senior network role these days and in many cases you will be interviewed by someone with many years experience in the field.

So yes, many people with little experience but a CCIE can struggle to win the job they want. Having said all that, with the CCIE behind them they should be capable of ramping up their experience in a couple of years providing they get a start. For that, sights may have to be set a little lower for a little while.

Crunchyhippo

Mishra wrote:

Crunchyhippo wrote:

FYI, the post on Purcell was a mix of hyperbole and dry humor. I hope you aren't taking that seriously.

Glad to hear that. You do have a CCIE fetish though. lol

I guess it's better than being in a gang, huh?

Sie

networker050184 wrote:

Would you let a doctor that never touched a live human give you an operation?

I think this is the most relevant quote, Now he has BIG congratulations from me for doing this but he will need to put in the time now to work his way up and get the experience to go with it.

He shouldnt have to start at the bottom but I doubt he will be able to start at the top like he would want to, with hard work and determination (which shows he has due to gaining the CCIE) it should take too long.

In all I wish him luck in the next part of his journey!

sthomas

crunchyhippo wrote:

He realized that he may have to settle for a CCNP-level job, and he's been able to get a few interviews (not many)

If he can get a CCNP level job then that would be the way to go in my opinion. Since he does not having any experience I can see how that would make it difficult to get a CCIE level job since the ones I have seen pay 100k+/yr and require several years of networking experience. But surely since he passed the CCIE he has a high level of knowlege, so applying for CCNP level jobs and/or be willing to work for a lower salary might be an option. If worst comes to worst your friend could always volunteer somewhere to gain experience, I am sure there are places that could use someone with the knowledge of a CCIE but can't afford someone like that so volunteering would be a good way to gain some experience to get his career started. Once the experience and people networking starts his career should take off even if ihe only volunteers for a few months.

1MeanAdmin

Crunchyhippo wrote:

Yeah - what an idiot he was. He deserves to be unemployed. How dare he have no experience!? Being able to get a job with just an education - what was he thinking?

I hope he doesn't read this board. You'd be like salt rubbed in a wound. What a miserable advisor you'd be.

Look, the problem is that your friend's friend is not willing to accept a job that requires "CCNA" or "CCNA and some CCNP" level of knowledge/experience ("why would he want one anyway?"). The advices here are honest, constructive, and driven by the desire to help. I'm sure you know that your friend's friend deserves some criticism, so there's no need to be so sensitive, IMO.

itdaddy

and the employers offering CCIE positions want years of experience to accompany the cert. He realized that he may have to settle for a CCNP-level job, and he's been able to get a few interviews (not many), but again, he has no *paid* work experience, so he keeps getting passed over by folks with lesser certs + more experience.

It is about time some young Buck got his antlers broken off! I have lots of experience myself but not many certs...I get paid more than some guys I have read with tons of certs!!
So I am glad this guy has hard time...quit looking no he should hang with it!

What is wrong with a CCNP position? most CCIEs I talk to say they can pass the wriiten with being a CCNP fresh with a little extra study.I have personally seen it. So I think a CCNP is up his alley... but yeah kind of rock in a hard place....like a guy who is competting for a body building contest, he took the steriods to get HUMUngo! but didnt cut up which takes time and discipline. He is premature.. thinking that the education alone with give him the breaks...

he should settle for CCNP and work his way into experience..I think it is possible he will probably have to move. Economy SUCKs in USA right now and he will most likly have to move.

I think he should NOT give up! but he kind of sounds like a baby! wah wah and a guy
who can take tests well and read from a boook and work on a sim...companies are wise
not hiring a guy who is just book smart! he needs to get his feet wet and be seasoned to work
under pressure all those brains can easily turn to mush if under pressure i have seen it.

my 2.3 cents

itdaddy

I guess I should mention.... if I get my CCIE , I'd have to take a BIG pay cut to take a "CCIE JOB" I've got over 20 years of experience now

oMG is that funny ahahahhahahhaha mikeJ
ajajajjjajajajajhaa!

keenon

simple answer is that he needs to apply for low level gigs for experience AND NOT LET THEM KNOW HE HAS AN IE. its not like i mention i have a tow motor cert

astorrs

Turgon wrote:

There are some very experienced trainers out there. At the same time many trainers are extremely qualified but shy on field experience. Many are however quite capable of teaching the syllabus they are qualified in. They are encouraged to spend time when not teaching classes on updating certs and getting more accreditations as this helps the profile of the teaching school. So yes, some trainers do amass a lot of certificates very quickly because they are not always teaching, as opposed to running an infrastructure 60 hours a week.

Just to clarify Turgon, I have nothing against trainers - they are good at their job, which is to teach. I have met some trainers who just wanted to get out of the daily grind and have lots of experience to back it all up, others who have little. All I was getting at is that while those ones may make excellent trainers they are missing the years of hands-on troubleshooting/BPs with the product to allow them to command the same salary/position as someone with substantial experience and maybe less certs.

Turgon

astorrs wrote:

Turgon wrote:

There are some very experienced trainers out there. At the same time many trainers are extremely qualified but shy on field experience. Many are however quite capable of teaching the syllabus they are qualified in. They are encouraged to spend time when not teaching classes on updating certs and getting more accreditations as this helps the profile of the teaching school. So yes, some trainers do amass a lot of certificates very quickly because they are not always teaching, as opposed to running an infrastructure 60 hours a week.

Just to clarify Turgon, I have nothing against trainers - they are good at their job, which is to teach. I have met some trainers who just wanted to get out of the daily grind and have lots of experience to back it all up, others who have little. All I was getting at is that while those ones may make excellent trainers they are missing the years of hands-on troubleshooting/BPs with the product to allow them to command the same salary/position as someone with substantial experience and maybe less certs.

There's no need to clarify what you meant my friend, I understood that, but some readers might not. As for trainers there are very good ones but also some crap ones, same as anything else! Some trainers make a very good living, while they do miss out on the field experience while they are working as trainers, at the higher end it's really a fulltime thing to stay on top of training people in complex things. So field and training are different, but for sure prior field experience certainly helps trainers.