An unemployed CCIE

My friend knows a guy who discovered that he really loved networking, so some time ago he started his CCNA, and about a year ago he finally finished up with his CCIE. He's really bright and in his late twenties (it helps that he's single, too, with time to burn). He went straight through, which is why he was able to finish up so quickly. The downside is - he can't find a job. He's overqualified for CCNA-level positions (why would he want one anyway?), and the employers offering CCIE positions want years of experience to accompany the cert. He realized that he may have to settle for a CCNP-level job, and he's been able to get a few interviews (not many), but again, he has no *paid* work experience, so he keeps getting passed over by folks with lesser certs + more experience.

My friend said it's been about a year since his job hunt began with no job offer in all that time. He's now seriously talking about changing careers, if you can call what he has now a career. He's been interested in mainframe circuitry - whatever that is - and he's looking into that and abandoning the networking field completely in disgust.

It's a pity, and I guess the moral is - make sure you have experience, or your cert(s) will be as valuable as a wooden nickel.

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Comments

mikej412

Crunchyhippo wrote:

I didn't know I was going to have to provide documentation to back up a post, Mike. Just because you feel strongly about it, don't expect me to go out and make phone calls just to satisfy your curiosity.

Great -- don't provide any documentation. As I said, it sounds like a "friend of a friend story."

Crunchyhippo wrote:

I thought it was information about a telling trend in this field, albeit to an extreme, which is what made the information readable, IMHO.

Really? Like the Purcell being unemployed because of no experience story you made up?

I'm thinking it's because you got the CCNA, have no experience, and couldn't get a job. You've also ignored the advice from multiple people in your numerous threads about getting a job and getting some experience. Now you're working on the CCVP.

Since you started this thread, do you now believe that maybe there is something to the advice given to you about advanced certifications with no experience not being a magic ticket to a job?

Crunchyhippo wrote:

You seem to be looking at it from only the employer's POV.

When it comes to a hiring decision, the only POV that matters is the employer's.

From your POV -- why do you think a piece of paper like a Certificaiton entitles someone to a job?

From your POV -- what do you think your job prospects are after you get the CCVP?

astorrs

mikej412 wrote:

From your POV -- what do you think your job prospects are after you get the CCVP?

Probably answer: Architect and lead a project to implement converged networking, 4 digit dialing, and unified messaging for a multi-billion dollar global company.

Probably reality: NOC

dynamik

This is getting a bit out of hand guys. I agree that the first post sort of stated the obvious, but there's no need to move on to making personal attacks.

He can easily leave the IE or NP off his resume and look for entry/mid-range level work or put ads in Craig's List, volunteer, etc. It sounds like he has been plagued by unrealistic expectations and poor planning.

astorrs

dynamik wrote:

This is getting a bit out of hand guys. I agree that the first post sort of stated the obvious, but there's no need to move on to making personal attacks.

He can easily leave the IE or NP off his resume and look for entry/mid-range level work or put ads in Craig's List, volunteer, etc. It sounds like he has been plagued by unrealistic expectations and poor planning.

Okay, I'll listen to the voice of reason. Thanks, Friday after a long week and all. I don't mean them as personal attacks in anyway, only that some peoples expectations are out of perspective. Getting a masters degree in Computer Science with no work experience is the same thing, you can't expect an employer to immediately put you in charge of architecting their new development projects - they're going to want to see how you act in a team environment, etc.

To the OP, dynamik is right, your friend should either consider accepting intermediate level job at less pay and build 2-3 years of experience, then it should be no problem for him to "jump" up to more responsibility (he'll have to renew the CCIE at that point and it will be "new" and he can sell it as such). I like the craigslist idea too, maybe he can get some independent consulting work if he doesn't demand a high rate - anything to build a little experience.

He should definitely persist with it though, he obviously spent a lot of time on it and that effort shouldn't go wasted. The knowledge he learned studying will pay off immediately in his career and he could find himself moving up the ranks of responsibility quickly.

Or there is always the partner route that Mike and others have suggested. If you can find one with enough work there is probably a better chance to gain more varied experience faster there than with a single employer.

EdTheLad

I obtained the ccnp/ccip without any real world cisco experience.
Agents were not interested,i couldnt even get a ccna role as on paper i was over qualified.
Now i'm working for Cisco, i took an entrance exam, did a couple of tech interviews and thats it.
So if your friends friend really exists Cisco will employ him.
One thing to remember is CCIE is only a cert which proves you have a good foundation on cisco technology, thats it.
My job entails alot of software testing on specific cards, evaluating bugs, figuring out why certain combined features don't work together and escalating to development engineers etc..
I dont have a ccie but i work at a higher level, knowing multicast,bgp,ospf,route-maps blah blah blah is a foundation requirement.Learning how to troubleshoot real world issues is a different kettle of fish, ask a theory based ccie how to detect overruns on a 6704 module or how to see packet drops on an es20 line card,good luck!
So much to learn so little time, ccie is only a starting point.

One last thing,if your fiends friend wants a ccna level job, he should remove both ccie,ccnp from is resume.Problem solved!

Tryntotechit

Wow. This has been a very heated post. I normally try not to beat a dead horse, but I think that once the "friend" does land a job, he will rise quickly. I know that this was mentioned by a few. Once he starts at the grunt end of the occupation, he will get what he wants. The friend may have to work 2 jobs to supplement his income while getting experience. He may have to move away to find a decent job. Everyone wants that dream job that they "know" they deserve. I know I do. Unfortunately, I have put the time in and "he" hasn't either. Get luck on the search and congrats on the cert. I know that isn't an easy feat but you have to do what you have to do. Once you put your mind to IT, don't just turn your back when things get discouraging.

mikej412

nel wrote:

So would all the cisco guys not recommend going for ccnp without experiance either? as many people seem to do so (possibly including me )

After earning the CCNA and while looking for that first Networking job, there is nothing wrong with starting work on the CCNP. It should keep your knowledge and skill sharp for those job interviews, and it's something that could differentiate you from other CCNAs going for the same job.

But if you can't find a job with a CCNA, tacking on a CCNP isn't necessarily going to help you -- and it could hurt.

Plus studying and completing the CCNP should probably take a lot longer than a CCNA job search -- so you'd most likely be finishing up your CCNP sometime after you've been hired somewhere.

empc4000xl

EdTheLad wrote:

One last thing,if your fiends friend wants a ccna level job, he should remove both ccie,ccnp from is resume.Problem solved!

This is what I have been thinking the entire time, if you do have all this stuff with no experince, why don't you just take it off your resume and put down the basics, that way you will get more calls. I wouldn't even mention that you had the higher stuff until you got the job and been there a while and were looking for your next one.

mgeorge

empc4000xl wrote:

This is what I have been thinking the entire time, if you do have all this stuff with no experince, why don't you just take it off your resume and put down the basics, that way you will get more calls. I wouldn't even mention that you had the higher stuff until you got the job and been there a while and were looking for your next one.

Funny though, I've actually done this one about 5 years ago. The guy hired me as an MCP and
a week later my boss found out that I had a long list of certifications, he asked me why
I didnt tell him in the interviews and I asked him "would you have hired me if I told you" and
his answer was "probably not"

Needless to say left that company for a higher position after a few months when I became
the "go to guy" and was doing work outside of the realm of my job duties and pay range.

nel

mikej412 wrote:

nel wrote:

So would all the cisco guys not recommend going for ccnp without experiance either? as many people seem to do so (possibly including me )

After earning the CCNA and while looking for that first Networking job, there is nothing wrong with starting work on the CCNP. It should keep your knowledge and skill sharp for those job interviews, and it's something that could differentiate you from other CCNAs going for the same job.

But if you can't find a job with a CCNA, tacking on a CCNP isn't necessarily going to help you -- and it could hurt.

Plus studying and completing the CCNP should probably take a lot longer than a CCNA job search -- so you'd most likely be finishing up your CCNP sometime after you've been hired somewhere.

Thanks for the advice mike, much appreciated.

Its a role i am desperate to get into but are having trouble finding ANY jobs relating to this field in my area. Since i have moved here i have only seen 1 job post in the last 9 months!

Ive just found it v.hard to even get experiance at a basic level.

dtlokee

Maybe the guy's resume looks like it was written by a 2 year old, and he is no good at intervewing. It may have nothing to do with the CCIE certification at all

After he got his CCNA why didn't he start looking for a job then? I know somone who was in a similar situation where he worked at Starbucks and got his CCIE Security and no one would hire him. The problem becomes if I have only one open slot in my company do I want to fill it with the guy with no experience with a high level certification who will be underpaid when compared to other people with the CCIE? The answer is typically going to be no because I realize he will most likely leave after a couple month or a year when he gets a little experience under his belt for more money.

Tell him to start calling partners in his area, there is most likely one looking to move up to silver or gold looking for a CCIE.

HeroPsycho

mgeorge wrote:

Funny though, I've actually done this one about 5 years ago. The guy hired me as an MCP and a week later my boss found out that I had a long list of certifications, he asked me why I didnt tell him in the interviews and I asked him "would you have hired me if I told you" and
his answer was "probably not"

Needless to say left that company for a higher position after a few months when I became
the "go to guy" and was doing work outside of the realm of my job duties and pay range.

That's exactly why they wouldn't have hired you. They don't want to hire someone who's gonna stick around a few months. When you interview for a job that needs CCNA type skill, and they know you have CCIE, you're obviously looking for bigger and better things, and much sooner than they could offer that to you if they even have a position like that at all in the company.

mgeorge

HeroPsycho wrote:

mgeorge wrote:

Funny though, I've actually done this one about 5 years ago. The guy hired me as an MCP and a week later my boss found out that I had a long list of certifications, he asked me why I didnt tell him in the interviews and I asked him "would you have hired me if I told you" and
his answer was "probably not"

Needless to say left that company for a higher position after a few months when I became
the "go to guy" and was doing work outside of the realm of my job duties and pay range.

That's exactly why they wouldn't have hired you. They don't want to hire someone who's gonna stick around a few months. When you interview for a job that needs CCNA type skill, and they know you have CCIE, you're obviously looking for bigger and better things, and much sooner than they could offer that to you if they even have a position like that at all in the company.

I never had a problem with the position up until they found out that I width held information
about my certifications and skills, after they found out, they took advantage of it, then I left
because I was not getting paid to deploy servers, I was getting paid for workstation support.

If they would have given me a raise or promoted me to a position where the work I was
doing at the time was related to the job position & pay then yes, I would have stayed there
but I was not going to let a company take advantage of me by not paying me for the work
I was doing, that of which was not related to my job duties.

Initially I was happy with what I was doing there it was easy work that I could do in my
sleep and it was great money; at the time it kept the bills paid with plenty extra.

I accepted a new job because they were going to pay me to do the same work that I was
currently doing for the old employer that I wasnt getting paid to do.

Why do you scrutinize such an action?, would you have not done the same given the circimstances?

Vassago68

I never had a problem with the position up until they found out that I width held information
about my certifications and skills, after they found out, they took advantage of it, then I left
because I was not getting paid to deploy servers, I was getting paid for workstation support.

If they would have given me a raise or promoted me to a position where the work I was
doing at the time was related to the job position & pay then yes, I would have stayed there
but I was not going to let a company take advantage of me by not paying me for the work
I was doing, that of which was not related to my job duties.

Initially I was happy with what I was doing there it was easy work that I could do in my
sleep and it was great money; at the time it kept the bills paid with plenty extra.

I accepted a new job because they were going to pay me to do the same work that I was
currently doing for the old employer that I wasnt getting paid to do.

Why do you scrutinize such an action?, would you have not done the same given the circimstances?

I can totally understand the reason you left. I work in the Army, which is totally different. Imagine being an IT tech, where you work in a Battalion and pretty much do help desk tech level 1 stuff, when you have some certs, or hands on experience with AD and group policy. It was insanely frustrating to me to work at 18th Airborne Corps G-6 for 2 years and get all the hands on and training, and then at my next assignment, I am a baseline **** (pardon the french), and working on simple network, or printer issues.

The Army doesn't place us according to education or experience. You could be a private and come in the Army and start out in a G-6 working on large Cisco networks, or on the Server pushing down GP, and working with AD. Or you could be the opposite and have experience and work at the lowest level. Which is where I currently am.

Right now, Ive told my Chain of Command I will refuse to stay in the Army. I am currently going through DeVry for my CIS degree, and working on MCSE and CCNA as well. (I'll take my CCNA and Net+ exams over here while they are free to me). Unless I can get a contract stating that I will be working at a much higher level then I am currently. I will get out at 15 years and walk away from the pension simply because I feel I am not being used like I should.

So yes, I can completely understand where you are coming from on being abused, although mine is on the other spectrum.

HeroPsycho

mgeorge wrote:

I never had a problem with the position up until they found out that I width held information
about my certifications and skills, after they found out, they took advantage of it, then I left
because I was not getting paid to deploy servers, I was getting paid for workstation support.

If they would have given me a raise or promoted me to a position where the work I was
doing at the time was related to the job position & pay then yes, I would have stayed there
but I was not going to let a company take advantage of me by not paying me for the work
I was doing, that of which was not related to my job duties.

Initially I was happy with what I was doing there it was easy work that I could do in my
sleep and it was great money; at the time it kept the bills paid with plenty extra.

I accepted a new job because they were going to pay me to do the same work that I was
currently doing for the old employer that I wasnt getting paid to do.

Why do you scrutinize such an action?, would you have not done the same given the circimstances?

Settle down!

I'm not scrutinizing you at all. I would have done the exact same thing in your situation.

I was only pointing out how most employers feel about hiring someone overqualified. They're afraid those people will leave too quickly. They want to hire someone who will stay a few years, not a few months.

I almost did that to myself. I began prepping for MCSE, and all the while interviewing for lower end positions. I got turned down due to lack of experience, etc. Then I got my MCSE, and I was seen as lacking experience or overqualified. It also didn't help I was trying to get my first full time IT job after the .com bubble burst. Admin level positions wouldn't hire me because I was overqualified, and engineer positions wouldn't hire me because I lacked experience.

It took a company who didn't care how inexperienced I was, but just wanted someone who knew their stuff, and that turned out to be Microsoft. With that on my resume, my work experience validated my certifications, and it suddenly became easy to find jobs to the point that now employers come looking for me.

marlon23

1. Cisco is looking for a totally different skillset then just a certification level. Mostly softskills, technical knowledge is a must for any candidate.

2. Certification is no match for experience.

3. Friend should be onest with him self, get a CCNP level job, and work him self up. If he is not able to do so, then problem can be in his non-technical skills.

4. My experience with trainers is terrible, I found out that most of them are just dumped to get the certification, and with no experience at all (I sended few of them back where they came from, as their training was just waste of time). Best trainers I got, have been working as a successfull consultans at the same time.

Turgon

marlon23 wrote:

1. Cisco is looking for a totally different skillset then just a certification level. Mostly softskills, technical knowledge is a must for any candidate.

2. Certification is no match for experience.

3. Friend should be onest with him self, get a CCNP level job, and work him self up. If he is not able to do so, then problem can be in his non-technical skills.

4. My experience with trainers is terrible, I found out that most of them are just dumped to get the certification, and with no experience at all (I sended few of them back where they came from, as their training was just waste of time). Best trainers I got, have been working as a successfull consultans at the same time.

Some good advice there. There are some great trainers, but many do indeed suck balls. A lot of training shops sprang up with dumped trainers. Sad but true *shrug*

marlon23

Just for fun few examples I have experienced:

Trainer 1 from X:
Explaining MPLS header, and told that 3 headers are maximum possible. I asked why is there 3 headers maximum when header structure allows more. Answer : 3 is max. Then he started to google it.
Also stated that biggest disadvatage of CEF is that it is not open, and that is why we have MPLS...

Trainer 2 from X:
He was downloading p0rn from our corporate network, little popup showed up when his XXX stuff was ready to watch.

Trainer 3 from X:
CCIE in security,... He told that there is no possibility that you will have same hash from packet if you change something inside. I argued that every hashing algorithm has a "collision". It was first time he heard about such a thing.
Also stated that NAT discovery is making hash only from ports. When challenged that this is not reliable I found out he has no idea how NAT/PAT is working.

Trainer 4 from X:
Gaved study materials with dumbs included on USB stick.

and much much much more

The biggest problem, not considering technical knowledge is that they just dont listen, when you ask them a question, they will replay same sentences in a loop, doesnt matter what are you asking.
On opposite side, consultants can connect explained technology to real-world experience, this is just making such a difference, also they are used to listen and really understand what is your question about before answer. Just some skills which makes good consultant

pLuhhmm

to me it sounds like someone who came straight out of school and thinks they should be automatically the #1 candidate. Also I dont know why he is in such a hurry for someone with no prior work experience.....