The Declining Value Of Your College Degree

hypnotoad

Computer Science, as education, is still in its infancy. We're still learning what to teach, how to teach it, and who to teach it to. On the other hand, we've been teaching the other natural sciences and humanities for two thousand years, and look at the quality of some of those graduates

I've met BA's who can't write correctly in their native language, and Ph.D.'s who can't do simple math. Similarly, I've met A+'s who can't put a card in a PCI slot, and Cisco people who can't subnet.

When I interview someone, I try to make it about the person and the organization, not the demographic they fit. I feel that's a courtesy and a strategy that is overlooked by many HR-type people.

nel

Exactly. People wouldn't be strippers for years to get a degree in fashion design if it wasn't worth it.

...AHHHHHH, so this is how i start paying for me degree WHY DIDNT NOBODY TELL ME EARLIER??????

hypnotoad

FluxCapacitor wrote:

I think that college is becoming undervalued because, lets face it, most people go to college after high school these days. I think that the higher the degree level the better though. Everybody has a bachelors degree. they're a dime a dozen, but not everybody has a masters degree. If you have a masters degree and the certs and experience to back it up then you are on the top of the pile of resumes at any company.

I recently worked at a university. Let's just say that the first time my SQL statement pulled up an applicant who had 11 on their ACT and had a 1.1 GPA, I thought it was a glitch. It wasn't. This is our "bread and butter" of who we targeted. Sell this guy a $2000 remedial algebra course and he'll be a great customer for the next 7 years while he changes majors and fails courses. Go ahead, let him rack up $50,000 in debt to us.

If you want to summarize the state of education in the US, compare education to the housing bubble/McMansions/predatory lending business.

drainey

Well let's look at it another way.

I have 6+ years of experience and a few certs. My co-worker also has 6+ years of similar experience and just earned his first cert. He however has a degree, I do not.

If our Director of IT were to suddenly leave the company and they decided to replace him from within which of us do you think would be the most appealing choice?

Therein lies the value of your degree.

It's not about getting a entry or mid level job (athough a degree certainly doesn't hurt) it's about the ability to land the higher level (and better paying) jobs. And that certainly lends quite a bit of value to a degree.

jryantech

undomiel wrote:

shednik wrote:

Yet again another thread on this and the same things are said having a degree will never hurt you, I don't understand how people can think formal education isn't worth it. It shows commitment to something, yes some classes are bogus but overall it paints a good picture persay. When it comes down to it when you're up against a number of candidates for a position and you have everything the other ones have just you have a degree and they don't that will help you be set apart.

If you can get it without student loans then I say totally go for it. But it isn't worth the student loans. It will take more work to get to the same point without the college degree but you can still get to the same point. Plus you will learn a lot faster with on the job experience. Then if you go back for a degree now that you can afford it you won't waste your time hopping from major to major and wasting even more money.

I have to disagree here.

There is plenty of people who have student loan debts from a University that are making $100,000+ a year... They give you a lot of time to pay back a loan, you bascially are paying it back the rest of your life...

Plus if loans stopped students from getting 4-year degrees I think we would only have Minorities and the Rich graduating...

undomiel

jryantech wrote:

They give you a lot of time to pay back a loan, you bascially are paying it back the rest of your life...

Therein lies the problem. You are paying for it for the rest of your life. That is horrible.

The debtor is slave to the lender. Don't forget that.

cbigbrick

People "flock" to this country for higher education. That in itself sould tell you something.

jryantech

undomiel wrote:

jryantech wrote:

They give you a lot of time to pay back a loan, you bascially are paying it back the rest of your life...

Therein lies the problem. You are paying for it for the rest of your life. That is horrible.

The debtor is slave to the lender. Don't forget that.

I don't see your point.

Thats like saying do not buy a house because you'll have to pay a mortgage...

If you had the option between:

A] $40,000 a year and no monthly loan payment
B] $100,000 a year and $300 monthly loan payment

I hope you would pick B

I'm not saying this is ALWAYS the case... But if you have certifications, degrees, experience and motivation I do not see one thing that can stop you.

FluxCapacitor

What if you are only borrowing about $1000 a year? Is that going to drive you insane the rest of your life having to pay it off?

jryantech

FluxCapacitor wrote:

What if you are only borrowing about $1000 a year? Is that going to drive you insane the rest of your life having to pay it off?

Nope the less you borrow the better obviously, but if you need to borrow the cost of tuition every semester it should not stop you from getting your degree.

Thats why the phrase "Work and School" is so popular.

FluxCapacitor

Well then I can say as I high school student who will be going to college in the fall of 2009 that I'm pretty much covered financially for school. It will cost me 10,000 a year to go to college and by the time I graduate I will have built up enough transfer credits from my vocational school that I will go into college as a sophomore. I've done the math and I have a 3,000 dollar per year scholarship that will help me out a lot. The rest of it will be covered by federal and state grants plus about a $1,000 per year loan.

So...
Approximately $3,000 for 3 years of school sounds pretty good to me. Hopefully I will stay on track and not make a drastic change in my major. I'm thinking at this point that Network Security is an excellent major considering the job market out there for computers is to the point where they are basically begging for people to secure there networks from hackers.

Anyways, education is accessible to people as long as they are willing to work hard for it. I come from a pretty poor family. Neither of my parents have a college degree. I saw an opportunity in school to get college credit for a degree in technology which is in my opinion the hottest thing right now. I've worked hard in class. Trust me, not every 17 year old kid knows anything about Cisco routers or how to setup a domain controller on a server 2003 operating system.

mgeorge

Ultimately the job market is changing and positions are requiring a "degree" as a standard now if even its an associates degree. Of course back in the 70's and 80's when people had degree's they were like "wow" this guy/gal has a degree from such and such.

Around where i live, now you have to be in High school or have a high school diploma/GED to work at McDonalds flipping burgers. I'm curious as to how a High School Diploma will help you flip burgers?, is their special ways to flip burgers that they teach you in high school? If so, I never learnt them lol.. Must have been absent that day.

Since lately, sudent loan apr's are sky rocketing, price of college is going up 5-15% per year, books are insanely over priced and almost every IT job on monster.com or careerbuilder.com requires a degree of some sort. Unenployment rates have hit an all time high and is projected exponential growth in the forseeable future. The U.S. Dollar is hitting rock bottom and oil prices are hitting record highs. Clearely, the American dream is getting harder and harder to achive.

But hey, the grass is always greener on the other side of the containment field.

eMeS

undomiel wrote:

jryantech wrote:

They give you a lot of time to pay back a loan, you bascially are paying it back the rest of your life...

Therein lies the problem. You are paying for it for the rest of your life. That is horrible.

The debtor is slave to the lender. Don't forget that.

Generally I agree with the characterization that debt is burdensome and should be avoided.

However, I think you are painting this picture with a pretty wide brush and not considering that some types of debt are more beneficial to the borrower than others.

In the US, those types of debt are:

1) A primary residence mortgage, because interest expenses and taxes on the property are tax deductible.

2) A mortgage on a secondary residence (or, in the case of my uncle, a really nice RV).

3) Margin, if you hold a brokerage account and are approved for margin, the interest you incur on the margin debt is tax deductible.

4) Student loans.

Student loans have comparatively low interest rates (currently all types are capped by federal law) and usually payments and interest are deferred while in school (depends on the specific loan type). Depending on the debtor's salary (this limit changes every year), student loan interest is also tax deductible.

Additionally, consider the other side of the student loan picture. These are loans guaranteed by the federal government and are very very safe financial instruments for the investor. These loans are funded by investors that are generally seeking a low, but fixed and guaranteed return on their investment.

Regarding repaying student loans, debtors repay students loans according to the terms that they agreed to. I'm not aware of any loans that have payment terms over someone's lifespan. These are structured loans with a defined payback period, however, the debtor is always free to repay the loan sooner.

Another advantage student that is often overlooked is that some people are able to negotiate repayment of their student loans as part of their employment agreement when they take their first job. I know people who have done this.

While I agree that debt is burdensome and is best avoided, there are legal incentives towards certain types of debt that make them less burdensome for the debtor.

Don't forget this, Student loan debt, mortgage debt, and margin debt are not in the same class as credit card debt and car debt.

A natural aversion to debt is one thing, but characterizing all of these loan types as the same is overly simplistic.

Personally, if anyone would like to loan me money at 8.5% or less annual, and I can deduct the interest from my taxes, I will take as much of that as you are willing to lend me....

MS

jryantech

FluxCapacitor wrote:

Well then I can say as I high school student who will be going to college in the fall of 2009 that I'm pretty much covered financially for school. It will cost me 10,000 a year to go to college and by the time I graduate I will have built up enough transfer credits from my vocational school that I will go into college as a sophomore. I've done the math and I have a 3,000 dollar per year scholarship that will help me out a lot. The rest of it will be covered by federal and state grants plus about a $1,000 per year loan.

So...
Approximately $3,000 for 3 years of school sounds pretty good to me. Hopefully I will stay on track and not make a drastic change in my major. I'm thinking at this point that Network Security is an excellent major considering the job market out there for computers is to the point where they are basically begging for people to secure there networks from hackers.

Anyways, education is accessible to people as long as they are willing to work hard for it. I come from a pretty poor family. Neither of my parents have a college degree. I saw an opportunity in school to get college credit for a degree in technology which is in my opinion the hottest thing right now. I've worked hard in class. Trust me, not every 17 year old kid knows anything about Cisco routers or how to setup a domain controller on a server 2003 operating system.

Well the scholarship is very good and well earned. But you have to realize not many people qualify for grants(pell grants) as you noted. Because your parent(s) can't earn a certain amount of money to get these(You noted you come from a "pretty poor family").

I graduated in 2006 so I'm with-in your peer range and I have to say I'm happy to see you want to advance yourself. Keep it up and be thankful for scholarships and your government(pell grants).

jryantech

eMeS wrote:

undomiel wrote:

jryantech wrote:

They give you a lot of time to pay back a loan, you bascially are paying it back the rest of your life...

Therein lies the problem. You are paying for it for the rest of your life. That is horrible.

The debtor is slave to the lender. Don't forget that.

Generally I agree with the characterization that debt is burdensome and should be avoided.

However, I think you are painting this picture with a pretty wide brush and not considering that some types of debt are more beneficial to the borrower than others.

In the US, those types of debt are:

1) A primary residence mortgage, because interest expenses and taxes on the property are tax deductible.

2) A mortgage on a secondary residence (or, in the case of my uncle, a really nice RV).

3) Margin, if you hold a brokerage account and are approved for margin, the interest you incur on the margin debt is tax deductible.

4) Student loans.

Student loans have comparatively low interest rates (currently all types are capped by federal law) and usually payments and interest are deferred while in school (depends on the specific loan type). Depending on the debtor's salary (this limit changes every year), student loan interest is also tax deductible.

Additionally, consider the other side of the student loan picture. These are loans guaranteed by the federal government and are very very safe financial instruments for the investor. These loans are funded by investors that are generally seeking a low, but fixed and guaranteed return on their investment.

Regarding repaying student loans, debtors repay students loans according to the terms that they agreed to. I'm not aware of any loans that have payment terms over someone's lifespan. These are structured loans with a defined payback period, however, the debtor is always free to repay the loan sooner.

Another advantage student that is often overlooked is that some people are able to negotiate repayment of their student loans as part of their employment agreement when they take their first job. I know people who have done this.

While I agree that debt is burdensome and is best avoided, there are legal incentives towards certain types of debt that make them less burdensome for the debtor.

Don't forget this, Student loan debt, mortgage debt, and margin debt are not in the same class as credit card debt and car debt.

A natural aversion to debt is one thing, but characterizing all of these loan types as the same is overly simplistic.

Personally, if anyone would like to loan me money at 8.5% or less annual, and I can deduct the interest from my taxes, I will take as much of that as you are willing to lend me....

MS

Wow eMeS

eMeS

jryantech wrote:

Wow eMeS

20 years in IT in Financial Services....

HeroPsycho

To me in IT, a college degree seems to help people become more balanced, often times by developing better communications skills, research abilities, etc. I'm astounded by how many people I meet in IT who can't write in complete sentences, etc. Lacking those types of skills will hurt your career. However, and I admit that my degree may have been more important for me than I'm aware of, I have never seen where my college degree kept me from being eliminated from potential hires or got me a job nearly as much as my experience or higher end certifications.

Don't get me wrong here. I highly value education, and I think college degrees should be valued more, but I'm speaking only from my experience. My degree is in History and Secondary Education (Masters), but I've never been in a situation where I was eliminated from any applicant pool because my degree was not computer related; consequently, I have no plans to get a degree in something computer related. I'm focusing on certifications instead.

zen master

jryantech wrote:

Oh please

The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses.
I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"...

As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career.

Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well."

Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job"

Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?"

Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha"

I think you missed the point of the article (i.e. that a degree is absolutely critical, but not as valuable as it was in the past). I definitely have to agree, based on what I'm seeing on the ground in my country. I run a tech site, and I make a special effort to save and scan EVERY IT job I see advertising, and the vast majority of them REQUIRE a degree. Long story short, a degree is important, but, it doesn't guarantee you a job like it did in the past, because pretty much everyone out there has one. But, if you don't have one, and everyone else out there does, where does that leave you?

jryantech

benevolent dictator wrote:

jryantech wrote:

Oh please

The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses.
I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"...

As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career.

Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well."

Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job"

Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?"

Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha"

I think you missed the point of the article (i.e. that a degree is absolutely critical, but not as valuable as it was in the past). I definitely have to agree, based on what I'm seeing on the ground in my country. I run a tech site, and I make a special effort to save and scan EVERY IT job I see advertising, and the vast majority of them REQUIRE a degree. Long story short, a degree is important, but, it doesn't guarantee you a job like it did in the past, because pretty much everyone out there has one. But, if you don't have one, and everyone else out there does, where does that leave you?

Well I did not take the time to read the article just the title and the video. But I understand your point and its only common sense to understand that a degree is not going to automatically get you a job.

zen master

jryantech wrote:

benevolent dictator wrote:

jryantech wrote:

Oh please

The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses.
I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"...

As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career.

Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well."

Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job"

Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?"

Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha"

I think you missed the point of the article (i.e. that a degree is absolutely critical, but not as valuable as it was in the past). I definitely have to agree, based on what I'm seeing on the ground in my country. I run a tech site, and I make a special effort to save and scan EVERY IT job I see advertising, and the vast majority of them REQUIRE a degree. Long story short, a degree is important, but, it doesn't guarantee you a job like it did in the past, because pretty much everyone out there has one. But, if you don't have one, and everyone else out there does, where does that leave you?

Well I did not take the time to read the article just the title and the video. But I understand your point and its only common sense to understand that a degree is not going to automatically get you a job.

I don't know if I would say it's "common sense", after spending 4 years studying, and tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of dollars, a lot of people come out expecting an immediate payoff. Actually, there was a time in the past, when a good degree pretty much guaranteed you a pretty decent job right off the bat, sadly those days are gone, and a lot of folks haven't faced up to this reality. You and I know what it's like, because we're out here in the working world, and we know what's required, but most naive college kids out there really don't have a clue what it's like out here.

jryantech

benevolent dictator wrote:

jryantech wrote:

benevolent dictator wrote:

jryantech wrote:

Oh please

The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses.
I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"...

As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career.

Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well."

Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job"

Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?"

Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha"

I think you missed the point of the article (i.e. that a degree is absolutely critical, but not as valuable as it was in the past). I definitely have to agree, based on what I'm seeing on the ground in my country. I run a tech site, and I make a special effort to save and scan EVERY IT job I see advertising, and the vast majority of them REQUIRE a degree. Long story short, a degree is important, but, it doesn't guarantee you a job like it did in the past, because pretty much everyone out there has one. But, if you don't have one, and everyone else out there does, where does that leave you?

Well I did not take the time to read the article just the title and the video. But I understand your point and its only common sense to understand that a degree is not going to automatically get you a job.

I don't know if I would say it's "common sense", after spending 4 years studying, and tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of dollars, a lot of people come out expecting an immediate payoff. Actually, there was a time in the past, when a good degree pretty much guaranteed you a pretty decent job right off the bat, sadly those days are gone, and a lot of folks haven't faced up to this reality. You and I know what it's like, because we're out here in the working world, and we know what's required, but most naive college kids out there really don't have a clue what it's like out here.

Actually I'm 19 turning 20 this month. (Not quite in the working world yet)

I just have my head on my shoulder. :P

When I said common sense I meant for us and people on this forum, because well... If your posting on a IT certification forum you obviously want to better your career as well as your life.

But all-in-all I definitely understand the point that their is a majority of college students who think its Degree = Good Job, although its true out of it's context you really need to factor in Degree times Resume, Interview Skills, Experience(even just Internships), Certifications(if necessary in your field) and more will give you that "Degree = Good Job."

mengo17

benevolent dictator wrote:

jryantech wrote:

Oh please

The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses.
I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"...

As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career.

Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well."

Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job"

Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?"

Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha"

I think you missed the point of the article (i.e. that a degree is absolutely critical, but not as valuable as it was in the past). I definitely have to agree, based on what I'm seeing on the ground in my country. I run a tech site, and I make a special effort to save and scan EVERY IT job I see advertising, and the vast majority of them REQUIRE a degree. Long story short, a degree is important, but, it doesn't guarantee you a job like it did in the past, because pretty much everyone out there has one. But, if you don't have one, and everyone else out there does, where does that leave you?

You got it... I guess a lot of people did not even read the article... just saw the headline...

The article is exactly about what you just described above.