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Exactly. People wouldn't be strippers for years to get a degree in fashion design if it wasn't worth it.
FluxCapacitor wrote: I think that college is becoming undervalued because, lets face it, most people go to college after high school these days. I think that the higher the degree level the better though. Everybody has a bachelors degree. they're a dime a dozen, but not everybody has a masters degree. If you have a masters degree and the certs and experience to back it up then you are on the top of the pile of resumes at any company.
undomiel wrote: shednik wrote: Yet again another thread on this and the same things are said having a degree will never hurt you, I don't understand how people can think formal education isn't worth it. It shows commitment to something, yes some classes are bogus but overall it paints a good picture persay. When it comes down to it when you're up against a number of candidates for a position and you have everything the other ones have just you have a degree and they don't that will help you be set apart. If you can get it without student loans then I say totally go for it. But it isn't worth the student loans. It will take more work to get to the same point without the college degree but you can still get to the same point. Plus you will learn a lot faster with on the job experience. Then if you go back for a degree now that you can afford it you won't waste your time hopping from major to major and wasting even more money.
shednik wrote: Yet again another thread on this and the same things are said having a degree will never hurt you, I don't understand how people can think formal education isn't worth it. It shows commitment to something, yes some classes are bogus but overall it paints a good picture persay. When it comes down to it when you're up against a number of candidates for a position and you have everything the other ones have just you have a degree and they don't that will help you be set apart.
jryantech wrote: They give you a lot of time to pay back a loan, you bascially are paying it back the rest of your life...
undomiel wrote: jryantech wrote: They give you a lot of time to pay back a loan, you bascially are paying it back the rest of your life... Therein lies the problem. You are paying for it for the rest of your life. That is horrible. The debtor is slave to the lender. Don't forget that.
FluxCapacitor wrote: What if you are only borrowing about $1000 a year? Is that going to drive you insane the rest of your life having to pay it off?
FluxCapacitor wrote: Well then I can say as I high school student who will be going to college in the fall of 2009 that I'm pretty much covered financially for school. It will cost me 10,000 a year to go to college and by the time I graduate I will have built up enough transfer credits from my vocational school that I will go into college as a sophomore. I've done the math and I have a 3,000 dollar per year scholarship that will help me out a lot. The rest of it will be covered by federal and state grants plus about a $1,000 per year loan. So... Approximately $3,000 for 3 years of school sounds pretty good to me. Hopefully I will stay on track and not make a drastic change in my major. I'm thinking at this point that Network Security is an excellent major considering the job market out there for computers is to the point where they are basically begging for people to secure there networks from hackers. Anyways, education is accessible to people as long as they are willing to work hard for it. I come from a pretty poor family. Neither of my parents have a college degree. I saw an opportunity in school to get college credit for a degree in technology which is in my opinion the hottest thing right now. I've worked hard in class. Trust me, not every 17 year old kid knows anything about Cisco routers or how to setup a domain controller on a server 2003 operating system.
eMeS wrote: undomiel wrote: jryantech wrote: They give you a lot of time to pay back a loan, you bascially are paying it back the rest of your life... Therein lies the problem. You are paying for it for the rest of your life. That is horrible. The debtor is slave to the lender. Don't forget that. Generally I agree with the characterization that debt is burdensome and should be avoided. However, I think you are painting this picture with a pretty wide brush and not considering that some types of debt are more beneficial to the borrower than others. In the US, those types of debt are: 1) A primary residence mortgage, because interest expenses and taxes on the property are tax deductible. 2) A mortgage on a secondary residence (or, in the case of my uncle, a really nice RV). 3) Margin, if you hold a brokerage account and are approved for margin, the interest you incur on the margin debt is tax deductible. 4) Student loans. Student loans have comparatively low interest rates (currently all types are capped by federal law) and usually payments and interest are deferred while in school (depends on the specific loan type). Depending on the debtor's salary (this limit changes every year), student loan interest is also tax deductible. Additionally, consider the other side of the student loan picture. These are loans guaranteed by the federal government and are very very safe financial instruments for the investor. These loans are funded by investors that are generally seeking a low, but fixed and guaranteed return on their investment. Regarding repaying student loans, debtors repay students loans according to the terms that they agreed to. I'm not aware of any loans that have payment terms over someone's lifespan. These are structured loans with a defined payback period, however, the debtor is always free to repay the loan sooner. Another advantage student that is often overlooked is that some people are able to negotiate repayment of their student loans as part of their employment agreement when they take their first job. I know people who have done this. While I agree that debt is burdensome and is best avoided, there are legal incentives towards certain types of debt that make them less burdensome for the debtor. Don't forget this, Student loan debt, mortgage debt, and margin debt are not in the same class as credit card debt and car debt. A natural aversion to debt is one thing, but characterizing all of these loan types as the same is overly simplistic. Personally, if anyone would like to loan me money at 8.5% or less annual, and I can deduct the interest from my taxes, I will take as much of that as you are willing to lend me.... MS
jryantech wrote: Wow eMeS
jryantech wrote: Oh please The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses. I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"... As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career. Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well." Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job" Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?" Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha"
benevolent dictator wrote: jryantech wrote: Oh please The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses. I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"... As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career. Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well." Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job" Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?" Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha" I think you missed the point of the article (i.e. that a degree is absolutely critical, but not as valuable as it was in the past). I definitely have to agree, based on what I'm seeing on the ground in my country. I run a tech site, and I make a special effort to save and scan EVERY IT job I see advertising, and the vast majority of them REQUIRE a degree. Long story short, a degree is important, but, it doesn't guarantee you a job like it did in the past, because pretty much everyone out there has one. But, if you don't have one, and everyone else out there does, where does that leave you?
jryantech wrote: benevolent dictator wrote: jryantech wrote: Oh please The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses. I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"... As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career. Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well." Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job" Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?" Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha" I think you missed the point of the article (i.e. that a degree is absolutely critical, but not as valuable as it was in the past). I definitely have to agree, based on what I'm seeing on the ground in my country. I run a tech site, and I make a special effort to save and scan EVERY IT job I see advertising, and the vast majority of them REQUIRE a degree. Long story short, a degree is important, but, it doesn't guarantee you a job like it did in the past, because pretty much everyone out there has one. But, if you don't have one, and everyone else out there does, where does that leave you? Well I did not take the time to read the article just the title and the video. But I understand your point and its only common sense to understand that a degree is not going to automatically get you a job.
benevolent dictator wrote: jryantech wrote: benevolent dictator wrote: jryantech wrote: Oh please The only thing I learned from that link is that the girl in the video needs new glasses. I mean come on, thick black outlined glasses is not cruise control to achieving "cool"... As for degrees vs. non-degrees I encourage anyone dim-witted enough to believe this garbage. Because that is just one less person I have to interview against later down my career. Employer to me: "Hello, I see you have an A.A. and Bachelors in this field, also some nice certifications and would you look at this, experience to boot! Very well." Me: "Yep I believe I'm ready for this job" Employer to the other guy: "Hello, I see you have no degree but a bunch of certifications and some experience! That is nice I suppose, whats the deal with no degree?" Other guy: "Oh, well The Wall Street Journal said degrees have a declining value so what a poor investment getting one of those would be, right?!! hahaha" I think you missed the point of the article (i.e. that a degree is absolutely critical, but not as valuable as it was in the past). I definitely have to agree, based on what I'm seeing on the ground in my country. I run a tech site, and I make a special effort to save and scan EVERY IT job I see advertising, and the vast majority of them REQUIRE a degree. Long story short, a degree is important, but, it doesn't guarantee you a job like it did in the past, because pretty much everyone out there has one. But, if you don't have one, and everyone else out there does, where does that leave you? Well I did not take the time to read the article just the title and the video. But I understand your point and its only common sense to understand that a degree is not going to automatically get you a job. I don't know if I would say it's "common sense", after spending 4 years studying, and tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of dollars, a lot of people come out expecting an immediate payoff. Actually, there was a time in the past, when a good degree pretty much guaranteed you a pretty decent job right off the bat, sadly those days are gone, and a lot of folks haven't faced up to this reality. You and I know what it's like, because we're out here in the working world, and we know what's required, but most naive college kids out there really don't have a clue what it's like out here.
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