Navy: Information Warfare Officer

penguinking

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I'm seriously considering signing a 8 year contract with the Navy to get into INFOSEC/Network security. From what information I have been able to gather online and from various recruiters, the Information Warfare Officer position best fits the field of INFOSEC/security/networks/etc. The ultimate goal is a CISSP, and unless I'm mistaken (and I easily could be), working for DoD is a sure-fire way to gain the prerequisite experience necessary to fulfill the ISC2's minimum 2 domains of experience out of their 10 available security disciplines. I figure that since our military helped develop these standards that they'd offer some sort of clear-cut path to CISSP. It also doesn't hurt that this is a good way to get a security clearance.

In any case, I have been considering military for as long as I can remember but delayed it for years to finish college and get in relatively decent physical shape, in addition to psychologically preparing myself as best I can for what will surely be the best experience of my life (next to college, of course). Any advice is of course welcome.

penguinking

I should also mention that I have CCNA down and without question want to pursue CCNP/SP.

empc4000xl

PM me I can put you incontact with a source. I'm kinda sleepy right now so I can't go into details about the program.

scheistermeister

If you do go in my hat is off to you. Most of my family has served at sometime for just about every branch and I have seriously considered it. The only thing that stopped me was the amount of time you have to sign over to them. If it wasn't for that I would have done it. It has also always been my backup plan if something in my life went seriously wrong and I could not advance further on my own. I honestly think I would have a blast as a grunt in the mud, but since that is not where the money is that is ultimately why I never joined.

JDMurray

I have heard many first-hand stories of people who were promised a particular specialty or career in the military and were never placed in it. They were never presented with a written guarantee that they would end up where the recruiter said they would. Part of it has to do with placement tests and conduct and part is based on perceived need. The military puts you were it thinks it can use you best. Try to have contacts in the military that can help you get to where you really want to be and don't just trust the word of a recruiter.

networker050184

I'm all for someone joining the military, but you I wouldn't join just for career advancement.

famosbrown

JDMurray wrote:

I have heard many first-hand stories of people who were promised a particular specialty or career in the military and were never placed in it. They were never presented with a written guarantee that they would end up where the recruiter said they would. Part of it has to do with placement tests and conduct and part is based on perceived need. The military puts you were it thinks it can use you best. Try to have contacts in the military that can help you get to where you really want to be and don't just trust the word of a recruiter.

Yeah, this is true for those who take verbal agreements over written. I can't speak for any other branch except the Army, but I'm sure the branches are the same, but before you leave the in-processing station and actually sign your contract, you have already agreed to your military occupational specialty. There is no if, and's, or but's about that. There are some who do not score well on test or just don't know, who go in without a occupational specialty, but I can't remember the term for it. They basically do not care what job they are given and usually given a job during Basic Training depending on what the military need. This is an initial contract agreement that the soldier agreed to.

Others are duped by accepting a verbal promise that they will be able to get the MOS they want after they are done with their training. They are then duped into accepting a MOS that they might not want and hoping that they will be able to change it later on. The good news is that it can be done and gets done a lot. They send the soldier to school to get MOS qualified for the MOS they want if they are going to fill that slot. The bad news is that they now have two MOS's that the military can grab them for...including the initial MOS that the person signed up for.

This is for enlisted members. Active Duty officers aren't guaranteed the Branch they want. During OCS, they may have the Signal Branch as their first choice because they enjoy I.T., but the Army may assign them to the Ordinance Branch because that's where they want or need him/her. They can also change, but they have to find a slot and it is much harder...espeically as you move up in rank. Reserve Officers go through the same deal unless they find a unit and slot before going through OCS.

penguinking

networker050184 wrote:

I'm all for someone joining the military, but you I wouldn't join just for career advancement.

I'm joining for career advancement, love of country, benefits and security, etc. I don't think anyone joins the military just because they love their country and nothing else.

BradleyHU

wait...is this a civilian position, or do you have to enlist in the Navy and go thru basic training and all that other good stuff? and damn, 8 years is a long time for a contract.

Bokeh

Its always needs of the military come first, regardless of written contract or not. I did have a written contract when I went into the Air Force for Crypto Maint. However, during basic they canceled four upcoming school start dates. I was offered a few different choices - get out with a simple thank you for playing. Come back when a school date is open (and repeat basic training again) or C - take another job. Out of the five choices I was given, computer operations was the best one and got me started on my road in IT.

penguinking

BradleyHU wrote:

wait...is this a civilian position, or do you have to enlist in the Navy and go thru basic training and all that other good stuff? and damn, 8 years is a long time for a contract.

You go through 2 months of basic training, and then you go to school in whatever discipline you chose (network security in my case) for several months. If you're an officer, you also go to OCS (Officer Candidate School), which is more additional months. You could potentially take up to a year to be trained when including boot camp and all the schooling.

And it's not really 8 years. It's actually 4 years of active duty, where you're obliged to be deployed for 6 months out on a ship (a carrier or destroyer or what have you), one or two times over those 4 years of active duty. The next 4 years are inactive, where you can actually hold a job that is entirely outside of the Navy, with very few obligations to the Navy during those years from what I can gather. I'll find out more later today.

Bokeh, according to every Navy guy I've talked to, if your contract says you going to be doing one thing and they ask/deploy you to do something else, you are legally able to void your contract and leave them. I've been told that by recruiters, former Navymen friends of mine, and an attorney. Once you pass a physical you go to a classifier and they'll show you what field you can get, and if that field isn't there you aren't obliged to do anything. I don't know how it is with the USAF though.

networker050184

Evan Lieb wrote:

Bokeh, according to every Navy guy I've talked to, if your contract says you going to be doing one thing and they ask/deploy you to do something else, you are legally able to void your contract and leave them. I've been told that by recruiters, former Navymen friends of mine, and an attorney. Once you pass a physical you go to a classifier and they'll show you what field you can get, and if that field isn't there you aren't obliged to do anything. I don't know how it is with the USAF though.

That's true, but at the end of the contract in really small letters they put or needs of the Navy. I have seen a few people try to pull the breach of contract thing but never got out of anything.

I knew one guy who signed a contract for Hawaii. He went and bought himself a house there (stupid for buying before he got there) and moved his family there. Then he was told that his orders for Hawaii were canceled because he was needed were he was currently. He tried the whole fight about breach for about a year and a half but was eventually told there was a clause for "needs of the army." He now pays a mortgage in Hawaii for a house he has never lived in and can't sell because the market is so horrible he will lose too much money.

You should realize the military wants you to fight the war not to train you for a civilian career after you get out. You end up getting great experience that can transfer to the civilian world, but that isn't what you are there for. Probably only a small percentage of your time will actually be spent doing technical work, especially as an officer.

I'm not trying to trash talk the military, I loved my time in and its the reason I have the success I have now. Just take in the whole picture rather than just the end vision.

Bokeh

Its been many years since I was in, but I enjoyed the 10.5 yrs I had in. Only got out due to cutbacks. years later they had trouble keeping folks in and were begging them to stay.

Ah the good ol days of ASR/28, Mod 40, DSTE, Streamliner, etc. (geez showing my age now!).

Kaminsky

JDMurray wrote:

I have heard many first-hand stories of people who were promised a particular specialty or career in the military and were never placed in it. They were never presented with a written guarantee that they would end up where the recruiter said they would. Part of it has to do with placement tests and conduct and part is based on perceived need. The military puts you were it thinks it can use you best. Try to have contacts in the military that can help you get to where you really want to be and don't just trust the word of a recruiter.

My brothers had very succesful careers in the British army so I tried it. Never got to do a single bit of wind surfing like the ad promised.

When I found out I wouldn't stand a chance of being a helicopter pilot because there's always tons more senior people transfering in from other regiments all the time to do the pilot training, I decided to take my opportunity and left to go to uni instead. (krikey ... I thought I learned to drink well in the army... nothing compared to drinking at uni)

However, in the current climate, I can't think of a job with more security ... except for the being shot at of course.

Forces will also teach you a hell of a lot of respect, especially for yourself. I still have that 20 years on. In any situation, when all about you are panicking, you'll always keep a level head.

I am one of those that think compulsary national service should be made legal for everyone when they leave school in any country. A lot of European countries do and they hardly have any wars and a much more social society and government. [except the French of course]

learningtofly22

I am ex-Navy, served for 8 years and got out. I got my specialty (Electronics Technician) in writing, and got it no problem. However, if you fail the training, the Navy can do as they want with you. Most sailors I know got what they wanted/signed up for, but I do know of some that got screwed as in the horror stories in this thread. Some of my fellow instructors got yanked from their position, sent to a 2 week "how to be a soldier course", and then shipped to Iraq for 6 months holding a gun. This is the exception more than the rule, but yes the Navy (or any branch) will put their needs before yours every time. Based on my experience, I would say that there is a:

95% chance you will get the training you signed up for,

90% chance you will get to do the job you signed up for for all 4 years.

As for the 6 months out of every 2 years you expect to be deployed, that's true, HOWEVER, don't forget that you will be out to sea on little stints all the time, like JTFX ( Joint task force exercises, where you all go out as a battle group, play war games and make sure you can fight as a team), IDRC (Interdeployment Readiness Cycles, where you basically go out to sea from time to time to make sure everything works, shoot a few missiles and guns, blah blah), ammunition onloads and offloads in Yorktown, VA or Earl, NJ, and a slew of other reasons to go out to sea. Most of those are between 1-3 week stints, and they happen a LOT so don't think that you'll just do 6 months out of every 2 years and that's it.

If you're not scared yet, I say go for it. Being in the service was easily the most rewarding experience of my life. I am a 3rd generation sailor, and the service to country, travel, friends, experience, education(VERY underrated by civilians, I myself had no idea what a high caliber it is) has made me into the person I am today, of which I can honestly say I'm very proud.

the_Grinch

My advice to you would be to look toward the enlistment side of the house. Having explored every military option known to man I'd like to pass some advice to you. First, as an officer your are primary a manager. As an Ensign you will probably do actual work, but after that you'll be managing network security people. My guess is you actually want to do the work and if that is the case then I'd say go for CTN in the Navy. Their whole job is devoted to protecting military networks. You'll get the hands on training that you need/want to get CISSP. On top of that once you make petty officer you will get manager type training as well. Plus you'll get all the fancy add on schools that CTN's are allowed to get. Your network training will get you through A-school quickly and then you will concentrate on C-school. Your degree will get you E-3 pay right off the bat (not great, but Ensigns aren't racking in the bucks either). Plus you have the chance to be station at a lot of interesting areas. Oh yeah, the TS/SCI you get will also help as it shows a great amount of trust in you, which is very important in the security world!

Links:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/navy/a/navyctn.htm (it is open to new enlistees)

Navy Intel Forums

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/514195148

Good luck!

penguinking

networker050184, I understand what you're saying. Bottom line, I didn't see that anywhere in the contract, so I'll have to look. But I've also heard of guys being able to get out of their contracts due to breach, specifically the Navy though, not the Army as you're talking about.

learningtofly22, is it pretty hard to fail your training? I assume you'd have to do pretty bad for them to force you to do something else. I also find it puzzling that they'd send Navy soldiers to the Middle East, you'd figure they'd prioritize Army and Marines soldiers before Navy. Also, I wasn't aware of frequent stints (I assume during active duty only), so I'll have to ask my recruiter later today.

networker050184

Evan Lieb wrote:

I also find it puzzling that they'd send Navy soldiers to the Middle East, you'd figure they'd prioritize Army and Marines soldiers before Navy.

You would be surprised. Both times that I went there were plenty Seamen out there. There are even some Coast Guard out there which puzzled me.....

eansdad

Who do you thinks ferry's the Marines......

Seriously though, the military is a great option IF you can handle it. Unfortunately I did not acclimate very well even though I passed both basic and AIT (Advanced Individual Training - Army) with high marks. Some things to consider are that 1.) You are an asset and they will use you as such. They promise the world but in the end it is what you make it. 2.) The Constitution no longer applies to you. in a short of way that is true. You fall under a new set of rights called the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Small things in the civilian world can be big problems if your serving the military. 3.) Be prepared for "mandatory fun". Something like a company picnic only it is mandatory. 4.) The can take away pay, rank and even confine you to the barracks if you violate the UCMJ.

This isn't to scare you at all but just be prepared. The privacy you have now will not be the same when your in the military. I was young and stupid and had problems from the start which doomed my tour in the Army but I would go back in a heart beat if I could.

The one question you need to ask your self is can i take another's life to defend myself or my country be it man, woman or child? That was one of the first question my drill sergeant asked us something I think anyone joining should ask of themselves.


As a side note stay away from any place that offers credit based on rank and DO NOT get involved with a girl/boy (depends on preference I guess) in a relationship until your at your 1st duty station. I have seen a lot of people meet in basic or training and get married only to be miserable and divorced with kids.

famosbrown

Bokeh wrote:

Its always needs of the military come first, regardless of written contract or not. I did have a written contract when I went into the Air Force for Crypto Maint. However, during basic they canceled four upcoming school start dates. I was offered a few different choices - get out with a simple thank you for playing. Come back when a school date is open (and repeat basic training again) or C - take another job. Out of the five choices I was given, computer operations was the best one and got me started on my road in IT.

Again...if you agree to a specialty, you get that specialty and go to school for it...period.

You even said that you had a choice to leave due to unusual circumstances...you chose to stay in and change jobs.

When I went through Basic Training, we had soldiers there that had been there for over two months waiting for their AIT training to begin due to rescheduling...they were not given opportunities to leave...they just waited until the school began. They were sort of Drill Sergeant's assistants around the barracks or were given quarters. Others are sent to the AIT (school) location and they wait there...one of my guys in my class waited through the Winter until our class came through because they didn't have enough soldiers choosing my MOS...he just waited after Basic Training at the AIT post location.

networker050184

famosbrown wrote:

Again...if you agree to a specialty, you get that specialty and go to school for it...period.

That is not always the case. I knew quite a few people that signed up for a certain MOS and then got switched to another due to needs of the military. I know two people currently serving that went through this. One signed up for MP and got a signal job, another signed up for EOD and got switched to NBC.

Once you sign the dotted line you are theirs... period.

penguinking

the_Grinch, thanks a ton for all that info. That's a great forum and I've promptly bookmarked it. Lots of great CTN info. Looks like it'll be between IT and CTN for me. Though, I'm curious, if I put in my package for officer but first go through boot, A-school, C-school, and then do 6 months of deployment, is it possible to become an officer after that time period (that's about 12-13 months total)? I'd like to get a combination of nitty gritty hands-on experience and managerial experience during my 4 years of active duty; i.e. E-level rank and than O-level rank.

eansdad, I meant Navy soldiers on the ground, not on the ships. I'd have no problem being in the Middle East on a ship. But I would be pretty pissed if they threw me out into the middle of a Sunni neighborhood with nothing but 2 weeks of desert training. That's definitely not what I'm signing up for. Though, this may be moot anyway if Obama is elected and we pull out in 16 months anyway. Frankly, I'd much rather help find Bin Laden in Afghanistan and Pakistan than be stationed in Iraq, though perhaps that's naive.

btowntech

Evan,

Are you planning on working on the Navy network?

penguinking

networker050184 wrote:

famosbrown wrote:

Again...if you agree to a specialty, you get that specialty and go to school for it...period.

That is not always the case. I knew quite a few people that signed up for a certain MOS and then got switched to another due to needs of the military. I know two people currently serving that went through this. One signed up for MP and got a signal job, another signed up for EOD and got switched to NBC.

Once you sign the dotted line you are theirs... period.

FYI, I just talked to an MP not more than one week ago who said that they can be switched to a different discipline only because they agreed to the possibility, in their contract, beforehand. From all the language I've read, there is no chance you get trained in a specific field (like IT or CTN) and then randomly become a cook just because they have a dying need for one. I know that MPs, especially, are encouraged to be multi-disciplinary.

Of course, I'm a n00b so I could be dead wrong.

penguinking

btowntech wrote:

Evan,

Are you planning on working on the Navy network?

I assume I'd be working on the Navy network in IT or CTN. I know CTNs are more analysts than anything else, while an IT would be do more administration than anything else. I suppose ideally I'd like to work for intelligence agencies like FBI, NSA, and CIA in INFOSEC.

networker050184

Even Lieb, everyone agrees weather they know it or not. You are at the military's mercy once you join. You'll find that out quick if you decide to go through with it.

I my self was a victim of stop loss. When I signed up I was like wait I agreed to four years and this says eight. They said oh everyone signs up for eight but you only have to do four you won't have to do anything for the other four. Over six years later I was still sitting in Iraq. Just like they say don't worry about the needs of the military clause, its in everyone's contract, it will never happen to you.

Again I'm not trying to convince you to not join or talk bad about the military. I really loved my time and was never screwed over (unless you count stop loss, but I just saw it as my country needed me). You need to realize you are signing your life over to them. Especially as an officer they can call you back for life! You can resign your commission, but they have to approve your resignation kind of a catch 22 if you ask me. You can't even retire after 20 years without permission. Come to think of it you can't do anything without permission! Just ensure you really want to do it and not just for the training.

the_Grinch

You could be assigned to the NSA as a CTN. The IT generally deal with setting up networks where as the CTN will work on classified secured networks. From what I gather you could enlist and then become an officer, but there is a slim chance that it will happen during your first enlistment time. It amounts to proving yourself as a sailor and then getting the chain of command to write off on you moving up. But think of it this way: if you enlist you can get in writing that baring any problems on your side (background) you can get the job as a CTN. Officer side, you apply as a civilian and go before the board. You choose three officer branches you are interested in (Information Professional (IT) is not open to new officers unless you have the experience to direct commission into it) and then the board will tell you what you can have. So say you put IWO, Intelligence, and Aviator and the only spot they have open is Intelligence and they feel you fit it that's what you'll be offered. The other issue I've seen is people having to apply three times before being selected by the board. In that time you could have been through Navy Bootcamp and probably done all the CTN training.

As for Coast Guard in the Middle East, it makes some sense. They provide port security in the US and have a specialty job for it. Perfect for sending them to Iraq to protect their ports. But from the Coast Guard guys I know when they were there 90% of the time the Army told them it was too dangerous to take them to the port and they stayed put.

btowntech

Evan Lieb wrote:

btowntech wrote:

Evan,

Are you planning on working on the Navy network?

I assume I'd be working on the Navy network in IT or CTN. I know CTNs are more analysts than anything else, while an IT would be do more administration than anything else. I suppose ideally I'd like to work for intelligence agencies like FBI, NSA, and CIA in INFOSEC.

I work for the company that has the contract for working on the NMCI network. As far as I know, no Navy personnel work on the NMCI network. It is all contracted out. Just thought I would give you a heads up before you made a decision.

penguinking

networker050184 wrote:

Even Lieb, everyone agrees weather they know it or not. You are at the military's mercy once you join. You'll find that out quick if you decide to go through with it.

I my self was a victim of stop loss. When I signed up I was like wait I agreed to four years and this says eight. They said oh everyone signs up for eight but you only have to do four you won't have to do anything for the other four. Over six years later I was still sitting in Iraq. Just like they say don't worry about the needs of the military clause, its in everyone's contract, it will never happen to you.

Like I said before, this is certainly the case for those that seek training as ground troops in the military, specifically Marines, Army, and even the National Guard, in Iraq. We've all seen that they were deployed 3 months longer and even some in the National Guard were tapped. But this is not the case with the Navy, and I can verify this with people who have been serving since March 2003 when the war started.

Again I'm not trying to convince you to not join or talk bad about the military. I really loved my time and was never screwed over (unless you count stop loss, but I just saw it as my country needed me). You need to realize you are signing your life over to them. Especially as an officer they can call you back for life!

I'm certain you cannot be called back for life as a officer.

You can resign your commission, but they have to approve your resignation kind of a catch 22 if you ask me. You can't even retire after 20 years without permission. Come to think of it you can't do anything without permission! Just ensure you really want to do it and not just for the training.

FYI, once your contract is up you're free from the Navy. It's really as simple as that. I've had this confirmed by two attorneys and two recruiters now. I cannot say for certain with the other branches.

penguinking

btowntech, that’s interesting. I’ll have to check up on that.

the_Grinch, I’ve been told by a couple former Navymen and my own recruiters that you can enlist and become an officer within two years if your transcripts were solid and you have proven yourself in your discipline (in terms of responsibilities of the job and in terms of leadership). Do you think it’s realistic to expect to be made an officer within two years of enlisting? Also, I’ve heard that it really helps to get a letter of recommendation from someone in the Navy, like a captain or lieutenant, if you want to become an officer. Is this true?

the_Grinch

I'm going to be honest and say that it is a slim chance of becoming an Officer from enlisted within two years. Does it happen? Sure, but I'd say that's the exception more then the rule. The big point is go for what you want. Want to be an Officer? Then do whatever it takes to become one! It might take sometime, but if that is what you want then do it. As for having recommendations from Officers if you can get them then use them. Looks great to have them from Officers in the branch (Navy, Army, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard) that you are going for. If you can't get them, then go as high up the food chain as you can.

I will say take the advice of those on this forum that are in. I have tons of friends in various branches of the military that have all been to the Middle East. There are CTNs that are currently serving in the Middle East. My friend is a Loadmaster in the Air Force and he did a month tour flying into Iraq and Afghanistan on an almost daily basis. Another friend is in the Air Force National Guard and her boyfriend was a cook in the Air Force. Got his orders and was ordered to report to training for Convoy Duty before going to Iraq (he was happy though because he didn't like being a cook and got the chance to train on the M60). In 2005 there was a speaker at DefCon who flew jets for the Navy that was actually assigned ground duty in Iraq. Body Armor, M16, the whole nine! As others have said once your in you are theirs. But what you can do is use being in to your advantage. Go to school, earn certs, get some training a civilian probably could never get on the governments dime. Your showing your on the right path by doing research!

My cousin just completed Marine boot camp and it is a great thing! But I believe he made a mistake when choosing his job. He went to MEPS and they said he was colorblind and couldn't become an electrician. Now I'm not saying that he was lied too, but I would say at 23 years of age you would know you are colorblind. I suggested that he go to a civilian specialist and confirm that this was true. If it wasn't, he could get a letter and get waivered based on that. He didn't do that and I believe he is now Infantry. I tried to get into the ROTC when I started college and was told that my hearing was not in the required area. Went to a specialist and he did a fuller battery of tests then they did at MEPS and cleared my hearing. Waiver was good to go, but I ultimately chose not to join. Did complete ROCT I because it was a great class, but it confirmed for me that if I did anything it wouldn't be the Officer route.

Good luck and keep researching!