Navy: Information Warfare Officer

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I'm seriously considering signing a 8 year contract with the Navy to get into INFOSEC/Network security. From what information I have been able to gather online and from various recruiters, the Information Warfare Officer position best fits the field of INFOSEC/security/networks/etc. The ultimate goal is a CISSP, and unless I'm mistaken (and I easily could be), working for DoD is a sure-fire way to gain the prerequisite experience necessary to fulfill the ISC2's minimum 2 domains of experience out of their 10 available security disciplines. I figure that since our military helped develop these standards that they'd offer some sort of clear-cut path to CISSP. It also doesn't hurt that this is a good way to get a security clearance.

In any case, I have been considering military for as long as I can remember but delayed it for years to finish college and get in relatively decent physical shape, in addition to psychologically preparing myself as best I can for what will surely be the best experience of my life (next to college, of course). Any advice is of course welcome.

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famosbrown

Evan Lieb wrote:

btowntech, that’s interesting. I’ll have to check up on that.

the_Grinch, I’ve been told by a couple former Navymen and my own recruiters that you can enlist and become an officer within two years if your transcripts were solid and you have proven yourself in your discipline (in terms of responsibilities of the job and in terms of leadership). Do you think it’s realistic to expect to be made an officer within two years of enlisting? Also, I’ve heard that it really helps to get a letter of recommendation from someone in the Navy, like a captain or lieutenant, if you want to become an officer. Is this true?

Again...I will speak from the Army standpoint. It is VERY, VERY, VERY easy to go from enlisted to officer in the Army. They are BEGGING enlisted soldiers with 4 year degrees to accept a Direct Commission. The best officers in my experience are the officer who were prior enlisted, or officers from Westpoint. Those ROTC guys are a different breed and have a lot to learn about the military after they finish college.

It is true that once you are commissioned, the military can call you back in...it may not be to go fight, but you may possess an expertise they need or maybe they are just short officers. The only way around this is to resign your commission when your contract is up. This is not a myth or rumor...it's truth. This does not apply to enlisted members...once your 8 year (4x4 or 6x2, etc.) contract is up, you are done unless there is a Draft.

penguinking

the_Grinch, that's one of the biggest benefits IMO, getting all that wonderful training and education on the military's dime. That's the type of stuff that is worth its weight in gold. But I'm curious; when you finish your first 4 years of active duty, are you obligated to do much of anything during your next 4 years of in-active duty (assuming you don't get called back)? As far as I understand it, you still get the same pay during in-active duty as you did during active, and you're totally free to move off base and hold a job in the private sector. That doesn't sound exactly right though.

famosbrown, absolutely, within that 8 year contract the military can exercise the option to call you back as an officer even if you're inactive. I fully understand. But as you said, if you don't re-enlist, you're not obligated to do anything, and they certainly can't keep you for life (and if they somehow could, they wouldn't).

networker050184

You are wrong. They can call you back for life as an officer, but not enlisted.

Also, you do not get paid for the inactive service.

Believe what I say or not, but when you get in you will be sitting there with all the other guys telling all the stories of how their recruiter lied to them. Trust me, been there done that....

the_Grinch

Networker is right on the money. Your time in IRR (Inactive Ready Reserves) is not paid. You are not drilling during that time so no reason to pay you. They can call you up during your time in the IRR at any point. Quick math formula: Your sign a contract for 8 years, 6 years Active Duty and two year IRR. Total = 8. They've just called up a bunch of Marines who were in IRR so believe that it happens. Guys that get out and get paid are exercising one of two options. A. They joined the Reserve or the Guard so they are getting paid every month for one weekend and paid for the two weeks a year they do. B. They are collecting their GI Bill which pays you while you attend classes. No GI Bill for Officers and Congress finally gave enlisted personnel the money they deserve for going to school.

Take the advice of the current and former military members on this forum. They are right when they say you will talk to people who weren't told the full truth before signing their contracts. Everyone should research before they join because any and all information you need or want can be found online with no pressure. Plus you have people who have been there, done it, and got the t-shirt

Good luck!

http://www.usnavyocs.com/portal/index.php <----Navy Officer forum for people who are Officers and those looking to become Officers.

learningtofly22

Evan Lieb wrote:

learningtofly22, is it pretty hard to fail your training? I assume you'd have to do pretty bad for them to force you to do something else. I also find it puzzling that they'd send Navy soldiers to the Middle East, you'd figure they'd prioritize Army and Marines soldiers before Navy. Also, I wasn't aware of frequent stints (I assume during active duty only), so I'll have to ask my recruiter later today.

I found it difficult to fail the training, but some people did. The Navy's "A" and "C" schools (for enlistees only, not officers) are rigorous courses that march on at an accelerated pace, so it's not for everyone. It definitely takes dedication, but if you don't have that, you won't make it in the military anyway.

As for the person that said that E-3s don't make much, but Ensigns don't rack in the bucks either, that's complete rubbish. An E3 with no time in makes $1000 less a month than a boot ensign (O1), and the gap quickly gets wider as time goes on. For example, an E3 is not guaranteed to make it to Petty Officer, you have to earn it by getting good evals, as well as pass a test given twice a year; the combination of those 2 factors decide if you make it or not. An ensign is guaranteed to get promoted to O-2 after 2 years as long as you have:

1. a pulse
2. not gotten kicked out.

Guess what? O-3 is right around the corner 2 years after that! Now, O-4 and above requires being selected just like our poor E3 that's been testing forever and just can't make it, but O2 and O3 are freebies. Let's look at the base pay of our same scenario after 4 years of service:

We'll give the E3 the benefit of the doubt and say he made E4, Petty Officer Third Class. With 4 years of service, his base pay will be:

$2047.80

The Officer is now an O3, Lieutenant, and has a base pay of:

$4545.60

Getting the picture? I'm not counting all the extra money they get for BAH, BAS, etc for simplicity's sake, but if I did, the gap would be even wider. Don't get me started on the fact that officers are usually sleeping 2 to a room on a ship; I slept in a berthing with 60 other guys, sharing 3 showers.

It's all up to you as to what you want to do. As an officer, you will be a manager, and not have as much hands on (almost none, just like a regular IT manager). As an enlisted man, you will have the hands on work day in and day out like you're looking for, but the life is tougher and the pay and respect is lower. I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other, rather I am just giving you a perspective from someone who's been there and done that. If I could do it again, I'd go officer, though being enlisted was an AWESOME experience.

learningtofly22

famosbrown wrote:

Again...I will speak from the Army standpoint. It is VERY, VERY, VERY easy to go from enlisted to officer in the Army. They are BEGGING enlisted soldiers with 4 year degrees to accept a Direct Commission. The best officers in my experience are the officer who were prior enlisted, or officers from Westpoint. Those ROTC guys are a different breed and have a lot to learn about the military after they finish college.

+10000

I could not stand the cockiness of green Ensigns that would come onboard my ship and try to tell me what was what, then they turn their head and bang it on a dogged hatch, lol! All officers should be enlisted first for at least 4 years, in my opinion. Having 1 semester left for my degree, I have yet to learn anything that would make me more of a leader in a military setting than when I didn't have a degree. Leaders are made in the fleet, not a classroom.

penguinking

You guys are awesome, thanks for all the replies. I only have a few more questions that weren't quite 100% answered at the Navy forums linked here, so just bear with me a little bit longer:

1) Does one's LOR (letter of rec) have to be formatted in a certain way, i.e. should I be telling the people writing the LOR's to be writing them in a certain style, format, etc.? From what other people have said, it's OK if some LOR's are from people in different branches who aren't officers.

2) I've now heard a couple time that officers do not get to use G.I. bill funds to take tests like the CISSP? Does this mean I can't, for example, subsidize continuing education courses by using G.I. bill funds because they just aren't available to officers period?

3) And finally, what kinds of bonuses do officers get, if any?

Thanks again for any help at all that you guys can give!

P.S. I've been told by one IWO (Information Warfare Officer) that the military cannot call you back for life if you simply do not re-enlist at the end of your contract. This confirms what I've been told by several other recruiters and attorneys. So networker050184, I still don't see how they could call back an officer (though not enlisted men) unless you mean they could *potentially* do so if you're still on reserve and a world war breaks out or something?

famosbrown

Evan Lieb wrote:

You guys are awesome, thanks for all the replies. I only have a few more questions that weren't quite 100% answered at the Navy forums linked here, so just bear with me a little bit longer:

1) Does one's LOR (letter of rec) have to be formatted in a certain way, i.e. should I be telling the people writing the LOR's to be writing them in a certain style, format, etc.? From what other people have said, it's OK if some LOR's are from people in different branches who aren't officers.

2) I've now heard a couple time that officers do not get to use G.I. bill funds to take tests like the CISSP? Does this mean I can't, for example, subsidize continuing education courses by using G.I. bill funds because they just aren't available to officers period?

3) And finally, what kinds of bonuses do officers get, if any?

Thanks again for any help at all that you guys can give!

P.S. I've been told by one IWO (Information Warfare Officer) that the military cannot call you back for life if you simply do not re-enlist at the end of your contract. This confirms what I've been told by several other recruiters and attorneys. So networker050184, I still don't see how they could call back an officer (though not enlisted men) unless you mean they could *potentially* do so if you're still on reserve and a world war breaks out or something?

1) I haven't heard of any LOR's other than a Letter of Reprimand in the military.
2) Officers do get to use the GI Bill, but their is one benefit I know they usually aren't eligible for and that is the Student Loan Repayment.
3) I have not known or met any officers who have received bonuses. When I was being pressured to go Direct Commission, they were no budging on the idea of giving me some sort of bonus, wouldn't give me Student Loan REpayment, and telling it is an honor to be an officer, etc., etc.

Please check your sources on the commission officer. If they are using re-enlist in the same sentence as officer, then they might not know what they are talking about. As an officer, you are being commissioned...not enlisted. As an officer, the only way to guarantee that you will not be called back for any reason after serving you AGREEMENT period is to resign your commission. Their of pros and cons for resigning or keeping your commission.

And to all other talking about the recruiters lying...I've sung many cadences about it. Yes, they lie, but they cannot ly to you contractually...read your contract before signing. Before you sign your contract (enlisted), they will go through the contract and point out dates, your specialty, bonuses, G.I. Bill/Kickers, etc. before you sign. You will also be initialing them all. My recruiter lied to me, but it was my decision to continue. He told me that I would get all of this school money, but he was giving me active duty numbers. Before I signed my contract, the contract stated I was only getting about 200+ dollars in contrast to the 1100+ the recruiter told me...I could have walked away, but I didn't. My recruiter told me that I wouldn't be deployed since I didn't have a combat MOS, but I did...

Recruiters may lie about how military life is, how the training will be, etc., etc., but they cannot lie about what is written on that contract! They're job is to get you to that contract signing...you have a choice up until then and the recruiter isn't sitting beside you.

Igloodude

Grinch and famosbrown know what they're talking about.

On the officer/enlisted front, keep in mind that generally officers have 4-yr degrees, it's a rare mustang that doesn't have one. I was Ops Officer for a MEPS for a while, so I'd also suggest preparing well in advance for the ASVAB, the better you do the more options you'll have. And I'd reiterate - if it isn't in writing, it didn't happen. If it is in writing, check the "needs of the Navy" clause at the end.

And whoever said about officers that they're primarily managers rather than hands-on technical is correct. But, they get out with all kinds of soft skills, and what your bachelor's degree is in rarely seems to matter to civilian employers. I'm not sure that officers can be "recalled for life", but I'm also not sure what kind of national emergency would require making a 40-year-old out-of-shape ship driver put on a uniform again. Maybe I could run one of Google's datacenter barges or something.

Vassago68

networker050184 wrote:

famosbrown wrote:

Again...if you agree to a specialty, you get that specialty and go to school for it...period.

That is not always the case. I knew quite a few people that signed up for a certain MOS and then got switched to another due to needs of the military. I know two people currently serving that went through this. One signed up for MP and got a signal job, another signed up for EOD and got switched to NBC.

Once you sign the dotted line you are theirs... period.

This actually ISNT the case at all. If they pull this on you, which I have heard many stories where they did, you can contact your Congressman.

My cousin had this happen, and they told him tough, deal with it. He called his Senator, and 4 days later he was discharged. It is still a breach of contract and they have to honor their end of the deal. If they don't, then you are no longer obligated to your end of the contract.

I have been in the Army for 12 years. I will say this about the Army, and other branches from what I have heard. You don't get that much training. They skim over subjects just so y ou get an idea for them, and don't really explain anything to you. I know when I went through the 25B course for the Army, they basically said "Here is how to configure a router and switch. Copy this down." And the test was basically a repeat of the crap they showed you step for step. It wasn't like Cisco where they just tell you what they need and you tried to do it.

Also, for Exchange, AD, Linux, we basically got the "Here's how to install it, and here are some basic commands" That was it.

Every training on I have is stuff that I have gone ahead and pursued in my off time. I am currently working on my Linux Certs, and when I get back will take the CCNA certs. All of this is stuff I do on a daily baises but never actually got trained on. The persons that do the best in our field are persons that like to learn in their off time.

networker050184

Vassago68 wrote:

networker050184 wrote:

famosbrown wrote:

Again...if you agree to a specialty, you get that specialty and go to school for it...period.

That is not always the case. I knew quite a few people that signed up for a certain MOS and then got switched to another due to needs of the military. I know two people currently serving that went through this. One signed up for MP and got a signal job, another signed up for EOD and got switched to NBC.

Once you sign the dotted line you are theirs... period.

This actually ISNT the case at all. If they pull this on you, which I have heard many stories where they did, you can contact your Congressman.

My cousin had this happen, and they told him tough, deal with it. He called his Senator, and 4 days later he was discharged. It is still a breach of contract and they have to honor their end of the deal. If they don't, then you are no longer obligated to your end of the contract.

I have been in the Army for 12 years. I will say this about the Army, and other branches from what I have heard. You don't get that much training. They skim over subjects just so y ou get an idea for them, and don't really explain anything to you. I know when I went through the 25B course for the Army, they basically said "Here is how to configure a router and switch. Copy this down." And the test was basically a repeat of the crap they showed you step for step. It wasn't like Cisco where they just tell you what they need and you tried to do it.

Also, for Exchange, AD, Linux, we basically got the "Here's how to install it, and here are some basic commands" That was it.

Every training on I have is stuff that I have gone ahead and pursued in my off time. I am currently working on my Linux Certs, and when I get back will take the CCNA certs. All of this is stuff I do on a daily baises but never actually got trained on. The persons that do the best in our field are persons that like to learn in their off time.

The old write the Congressman trick. Seen plenty of people try to pull that one as well. Jump the chain of command if you want, you will find yourself in a lot worse position than you were in the first place.

Vassago68

Actually, no you wont. I've been in the Army for 12 years. I've seen plenty of ppl get screwed via contracts that weren't honored. And I have seen plenty of ppl get out by writing to their congressman when everything else failed.

Congressionals can not have any ill come out of it. If it does, they are violating other laws, and your chain of command is then subject to another investigation.

It is plain and simple. IF THE MILITARY DOES NOT HOLD THEIR END OF THE DEAL, THE CONTRACT IS VOID.

Now, there are all sorts of clauses and loopholes. So what you think might be a breach, might not be. I'd seek help from someone that understands the laws before elevating this, but again, it comes down to the fact that a contract is a contract, and even the military is not exempt from honoring their contracts with their soldiers/seamen/marines/flyboys

moss12

Make a wise choice guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GmCM5CaT0M

w4nn4b1337

networker050184 wrote:

famosbrown wrote:

Again...if you agree to a specialty, you get that specialty and go to school for it...period.

That is not always the case. I knew quite a few people that signed up for a certain MOS and then got switched to another due to needs of the military. I know two people currently serving that went through this. One signed up for MP and got a signal job, another signed up for EOD and got switched to NBC.

Once you sign the dotted line you are theirs... period.

I second this! I signed up for 0311 Infantry in the USMC. I guess I was to much of a dork or something because right out of boot camp I was changed to 2651 Special Intelligence Communications. I suppose that led to my IT carerr but I digress.

8 years is a really really long time to contract your life out to the military. Especially the Navy. You need to do some real soul searching before you do it and pay attention to foreign policy of this government. Because you will be enforcing it. If you lose faith in that mission then the chances that you will make it 8 years is pretty slim. I thought I was going to be a lifer since I made the decision to join the Marines when I was 12 years old. From that point on I did all i could to prepare myself including studying history, traditions and exercising, and passing high school (a big challenge from where I came from).

However, the reality of it all let me know I didn't belong carrying out the whims of the elite. I am a veteran of the Operations Desert Shield/Storm. I was part of the force that conducted non combatant evacuation ops in Somalia in 91. Was part of Ops provide hope/provide comfort as well as supported NATO surveailance ops in the Adriadic sea during the former yugoslavia crisis. I served under two commanders in Chief and spend most of my time in the Marines at sea chasing conflicts around the globe.

I understand you are thinking of your career but you "MUST" put any kind of personal ambition aside when signing up in the military because you are the least important in regards to what the Navy needs. You will serve the foreign policies of this country and if you disagree with them then you will have a very rough 8 years. Take your readings on what those foreign policies are now and figure out if you agree with them or not because it will be you and many like you who will deliver our policy at the tip of a bayonet. That's all the advice I can give. Count the costs -

famosbrown

w4nn4b1337 wrote:

networker050184 wrote:

famosbrown wrote:

Again...if you agree to a specialty, you get that specialty and go to school for it...period.

That is not always the case. I knew quite a few people that signed up for a certain MOS and then got switched to another due to needs of the military. I know two people currently serving that went through this. One signed up for MP and got a signal job, another signed up for EOD and got switched to NBC.

Once you sign the dotted line you are theirs... period.

I second this! I signed up for 0311 Infantry in the USMC. I guess I was to much of a dork or something because right out of boot camp I was changed to 2651 Special Intelligence Communications. I suppose that led to my IT carerr but I digress.

8 years is a really really long time to contract your life out to the military. Especially the Navy. You need to do some real soul searching before you do it and pay attention to foreign policy of this government. Because you will be enforcing it. If you lose faith in that mission then the chances that you will make it 8 years is pretty slim. I thought I was going to be a lifer since I made the decision to join the Marines when I was 12 years old. From that point on I did all i could to prepare myself including studying history, traditions and exercising, and passing high school (a big challenge from where I came from).

However, the reality of it all let me know I didn't belong carrying out the whims of the elite. I am a veteran of the Operations Desert Shield/Storm. I was part of the force that conducted non combatant evacuation ops in Somalia in 91. Was part of Ops provide hope/provide comfort as well as supported NATO surveailance ops in the Adriadic sea during the former yugoslavia crisis. I served under two commanders in Chief and spend most of my time in the Marines at sea chasing conflicts around the globe.

I understand you are thinking of your career but you "MUST" put any kind of personal ambition aside when signing up in the military because you are the least important in regards to what the Navy needs. You will serve the foreign policies of this country and if you disagree with them then you will have a very rough 8 years. Take your readings on what those foreign policies are now and figure out if you agree with them or not because it will be you and many like you who will deliver our policy at the tip of a bayonet. That's all the advice I can give. Count the costs -

Are you sure you signed up for the MOS you thought you did? Did you see it in Black bold letters before you signed and initial the long contract? Again, speaking from the Army standpoint, there is an MOS designation for people who are either undecided or who doesn't get a good enough score to choose what they want. I was in Basic Taining with a few of these soldiers, but they already knew what they signed up for. A couple were assigned Infantry MOS's and a few NBC MOS's. Due to their initial "wildcard" MOS designation, they were all 11B (Infantry) unless they were assigned another MOS through Basic Training. Again, from the Army standpoint, the Army has ways to recruit for the MOS's that they need. I was inprocessing at the post for Basic Training and there was a guy who received 25K bonus for agreeing to go Airborne and Ranger school out of Infantry. They entice recruits to accept a position that they need with bonuses and school money. They entice current enlistees the same way to get trained on a needed MOS.

I must stress that a contract is a contract, and for those who decide to join the military, please read the contract and ask questions...they have all day for you!!

w4nn4b1337

famosbrown wrote:

w4nn4b1337 wrote:

networker050184 wrote:

famosbrown wrote:

Are you sure you signed up for the MOS you thought you did? Did you see it in Black bold letters before you signed and initial the long contract? Again, speaking from the Army standpoint, there is an MOS designation for people who are either undecided or who doesn't get a good enough score to choose what they want. I was in Basic Taining with a few of these soldiers, but they already knew what they signed up for. A couple were assigned Infantry MOS's and a few NBC MOS's. Due to their initial "wildcard" MOS designation, they were all 11B (Infantry) unless they were assigned another MOS through Basic Training. Again, from the Army standpoint, the Army has ways to recruit for the MOS's that they need. I was inprocessing at the post for Basic Training and there was a guy who received 25K bonus for agreeing to go Airborne and Ranger school out of Infantry. They entice recruits to accept a position that they need with bonuses and school money. They entice current enlistees the same way to get trained on a needed MOS.

I must stress that a contract is a contract, and for those who decide to join the military, please read the contract and ask questions...they have all day for you!!

I am 100% certain my enlisted contract had 0311 infantry in black bold letters. To be fair though what I went through is called special screening. That's the result of the new battery of tests you get after you show up at boot camp. As previously mentioned they decided I would serve the Marines better as a 2651. Considering the move to a "spy" job from being a grunt I didn't fight it.

Mrock4

For what it's worth, I've always been told the marines are the one service that doesn't guarantee a job..that you can select one, but it's not a sure thing. I have yet to see anyone in the Army go in as one job and get sent to a different school UNLESS they screwed up, and got reclassed because they lost their clearance, or something to that effect...

I agree, the Army's 25B pretty much skimmed over everything, but outside of school, I've gotten a ridiculous amount of training..I can't complain.

I've been in 4 years, and would agree that once you're in, you are the mercy of the military, but it's truly not that bad. It's very much worth the experience and benefits you will gain.

Vassago68

I wish I could say the same about my 25B experience. I've got hands on, but it was on everything I already knew prior to getting here. I was working in the XVIII ABC Server Room as a 25Q for Hands on training before my reclass, and after the reclass, Ive been stuck in a CSSAMO as an E-6. Needless to say, I will be getting out in 2 years just shy of 14 in since they won't move me to a new post, or at least move me to a more productive job. Swapping out hard drives and ram is a little beneath me. I didn't bust my ass for a degree in this field just to do low end computer repair.

It's cool though, when I get back from Iraq in dec, I will be scheduling a few tests, and trying to knock out about 3-4 Certs in the time that I am home before BNCOC and redeployment.

Mrock4

Vassago68 wrote:

I wish I could say the same about my 25B experience. I've got hands on, but it was on everything I already knew prior to getting here. I was working in the XVIII ABC Server Room as a 25Q for Hands on training before my reclass, and after the reclass, Ive been stuck in a CSSAMO as an E-6. Needless to say, I will be getting out in 2 years just shy of 14 in since they won't move me to a new post, or at least move me to a more productive job. Swapping out hard drives and ram is a little beneath me. I didn't bust my ass for a degree in this field just to do low end computer repair.

It's cool though, when I get back from Iraq in dec, I will be scheduling a few tests, and trying to knock out about 3-4 Certs in the time that I am home before BNCOC and redeployment.

Yeah. I just got out of a tactical unit, working as BDE S6 Netops. Pretty good work, got exposure to a lot of different technology. I then left 25th in Hawaii to come here (Macdill AFB, Tampa, FL) to work with for the DIA supporting SOCOM/CENTCOM. Amazing work..really is "the" job for someone who likes networking. I'm E-5, don't know how likely I'll be at making E-6 before ETS..

Vassago68

Yeah, They kept talking about moving me to SysAdmin here but since we are overloaded on NCO's....get this. They PCS'd me off Bragg where we were short 12 persons, to Stewart, where on arrival I was overstrength.

Needless to say, I worked as Automations NCOIC here in this BSB for a year, then the other E-6 25B that was in CSSAMO got picked up for 7. So they made him S-6 NCOIC, and moved the old NCOIC to another BN, and me over to CSSAMO since this is an E-5 slot. Personally, a brand new 25B out of school could do this job. Thats how easy it is. I've had AMPLE time to work on my masters here.

Be thankful for the assignments you've had. You've got lucky. I have gone from Division to Division my entire 12 years (2ID, 4ID, 82nd, 3ID). When I called Branch last week they said I was on a fence and couldnt leave. I told them about the 5 deployments Ive had and asked what was going on with the supposed 'fix' to the deployment problem of the same signal soldiers deploying constantly. Mrs. Thompson told me there was nothing she could do about it.

So, basically they just lost a career soldier. When my window opens up in June next year, I will tell them where to stick their re-enlistment. I've had ZERO help on training, or assignments since I have been in and never complained till now.

I look forward to being back in Chicago and not having to deal with the BS of the Military.