propietary or not?

itdaddy

Hey guys
say I built a software tool for my company that I built and is my code.
And say i want to sell my code and my system to someone.
Then my company says you cannot do that we own that code or system you built
you made it on company time.?? I built a tool that anyone can use for any install or the like.
can they do that say they own my code since they didnt license or patent it? how can they say they own it. I understand i did it on company time. but many of us learn
our skills from other companies how can they say they own mycode???
any help. some say they own it since I built if for my current company. But i say
i am selling a customized service; infact i may have to rework the program on some elses system but it is my code; how can they say this???
thanks

msteinhilber

If you did it on company time, it was never your code.

Any work you perform on the companies time is property of your company, no exceptions*. They pay you for your time, and as such anything you produce during that time is the companies.

*Unless as tiersten has pointed out that there was a pre-existing agreement in place.

tiersten

If you did it on company time then it is their software unless you previously agreed with them.

rfult001

If you signed a contract that states anything you create for or at work belongs to the company then you are screwed, otherwise it would be yours.

msteinhilber

rfult001 wrote: »

If you signed a contract that states anything you create for or at work belongs to the company then you are screwed, otherwise it would be yours.

Are you certain about this? Do you believe that a court would find that because you did not explicitly sign a contract stating anything you code on company time is owned by the company, that if you created an application on the companies dollar that you could turn around and sell it and get away with it? Not going to happen.

tiersten

rfult001 wrote: »

If you signed a contract that states anything you create for or at work belongs to the company then you are screwed, otherwise it would be yours.

No. It is implicitly the property of the company unless otherwise stated. itdaddy is an employee who created a work during work time which is within the scope of his employment. They might not have asked him to create this program but it still counts as being for the company.

The complications in this area tend to be when an employee creates something outside of work which they want to market themselves.

itdaddy

how can this be? they never licensed it nor patented it it is intellectual property?
i never signed anything of this nature. I mean it is my algorithms and yes it works for my company but say for example this. you cannot tell me you have never taken something you learned and taken it toanother company to use as your skill base. in my case my code that
has never been licensed nor patented nor copyrighted ?? so how can it be theres?? and who sets the price? is this law where is it written????? does anyone know if ithis is a law???
people do it all the time look at Microsoft and the making of windows? wasnt it a Apple things when it started out. where is the law in this not just hear say . i need to know by law???or written word not just what people say? i do understand i did it on company time
but it is code and the company i work for is not a vendor to sell code it is a credit union
not a computer software company so there is not competition they just dont want me to profit from it. so i could pay my company x amount of money that it is worth and be done with it huh? i mean that way they are happy but they wont be; i just dont understand many of us have take things we learned form past jobs and bhrought them to new jobs. what is the difference and where in the company hand book is it written????where????
coding???? algorithms are not specific to my company they just work data!
i do not understand how they can stop me. they can fire me i would not like that by why? is it theres??? i made thisprogram to benfit company i work for and they are not in compettion so why are they saying it is thiers? when they are not code vendor. yeah i built it for them and they can continue to use my program as they do but i dont get anything from it? wow i got paid my piddle wage i did it cause i got tire of spending 10s of hours doing something i can do by my cod in 5 minutes so where is it written down that this is law?????

itdaddy

how can this be? they never licensed it nor patented it it is intellectual property?
i never signed anything of this nature. I mean it is my algorithms and yes it works for my company but say for example this. you cannot tell me you have never taken something you learned and taken it toanother company to use as your skill base. in my case my code that
has never been licensed nor patented nor copyrighted ?? so how can it be theres?? and who sets the price? is this law where is it written????? does anyone know if ithis is a law???
people do it all the time look at Microsoft and the making of windows? wasnt it a Apple things when it started out. where is the law in this not just hear say . i need to know by law???or written word not just what people say? i do understand i did it on company time
but it is code and the company i work for is not a vendor to sell code it is a credit union
not a computer software company so there is not competition they just dont want me to profit from it. so i could pay my company x amount of money that it is worth and be done with it huh? i mean that way they are happy but they wont be; i just dont understand many of us have take things we learned form past jobs and bhrought them to new jobs. what is the difference and where in the company hand book is it written????where????
coding???? algorithms are not specific to my company they just work data!
i do not understand how they can stop me. they can fire me i would not like that by why? is it theres??? i made thisprogram to benfit company i work for and they are not in compettion so why are they saying it is thiers? when they are not code vendor. yeah i built it for them and they can continue to use my program as they do but i dont get anything from it? wow i got paid my piddle wage i did it cause i got tire of spending 10s of hours doing something i can do by my cod in 5 minutes so where is it written down that this is law?????

msteinhilber

itdaddy wrote: »

i do understand i did it on company time

.....

i just dont understand many of us have take things we learned form past jobs and bhrought them to new jobs.

It's because you did it on company time, not your own time.

Comparing what you take to new employers based on things you learned is different... you will take what you have learned about programming with you to other jobs, but the code you created for your company remains theirs. Much like if you deploy a dozen servers for an organization, you have learned from that experience, but you're not taking those dozen servers with you when you leave.

networker050184

You should contact a lawyer about legal issues.

Not to insult anyone here, but I wouldn't believe anyone but a lawyer on something like this.

msteinhilber

networker050184 wrote: »

You should contact a lawyer about legal issues.

Not to insult anyone here, but I wouldn't believe anyone but a lawyer on something like this.

I would also agree with this as well, even though my advice was it remains the companies property. If you genuinely feel you can benefit enough from the code to invest money in a lawyer to get a definite answer then I would advise you do so. Unfortunately, I strongly feel the lawyer is going to have some bad news for you.

tiersten

itdaddy wrote: »

how can this be? they never licensed it nor patented it it is intellectual property?

You wrote it on work time so it is automatically theirs. They don't need to pay you or license it from you.

itdaddy wrote: »

you cannot tell me you have never taken something you learned and taken it toanother company to use as your skill base. in my case my code that has never been licensed nor patented nor copyrighted ?? so how can it be theres?? and who sets the price? is this law where is it written????? does anyone know if ithis is a law???

A skill isn't the same as piece of code.

itdaddy wrote: »

people do it all the time look at Microsoft and the making of windows? wasnt it a Apple things when it started out.

Xerox PARC came up with the idea of the GUI originally.

itdaddy wrote: »

i do understand i did it on company time but it is code and the company i work for is not a vendor to sell code it is a credit union not a computer software company so there is not competition they just dont want me to profit from it.

It is irrelevant whether they're a software company or a credit union. You worked on something on company time which the company used.

itdaddy

my code is my own algorithm not any privy info of the company.
i use active directory functions i created and LDAP queries etc.. but my mind my algorithms
I did get a hold of a IT lawyer and I will get back with you guys on my issue. and will let youi guys know what he says about what is right and wrong
thanks for your help guys much appreiciated

tiersten

networker050184 wrote: »

You should contact a lawyer about legal issues.

Not to insult anyone here, but I wouldn't believe anyone but a lawyer on something like this.

Yeah. Go find a lawyer.

This page isn't quite the same situation but they do explain about IP and who owns a work.

tiersten

itdaddy wrote: »

my code is my own algorithm not any privy info of the company.

Code is an implementation of an algorithm.

msteinhilber

itdaddy wrote: »

my code is my own algorithm not any privy info of the company.
i use active directory functions i created and LDAP queries etc.. but my mind my algorithms
I did get a hold of a IT lawyer and I will get back with you guys on my issue. and will let youi guys know what he says about what is right and wrong
thanks for your help guys much appreiciated

You're doomed regardless of what the lawyer says... because this was your 666th post!

paintb4707

I can see where itdaddy is coming from. Even if the software was developed on company time I don't see how XYZ company could prove that the software is theirs without a patent on it. Kind of a don't ask don't tell type of situation.

networker050184

msteinhilber wrote: »

You're doomed regardless of what the lawyer says... because this was your 666th post!

You are doomed my friend!

msteinhilber

paintb4707 wrote: »

I can see where itdaddy is coming from. Even if the software was developed on company time I don't see how XYZ company could prove that the software is theirs without a patent on it.

If I were the employer and itdaddy decided to begin to sell code that he created while working on my dime, what if I decided to sue him. Perhaps I wouldn't be able to sue him for ownership of the code, who knows... I'm no lawyer... but I bet I could sue him for a percent of profit on his sales as he developed it on my time that I paid him for.

EDIT: He also just said he coded it on company time in this public forum, they just proved he wrote it on company time.

tiersten

paintb4707 wrote: »

I can see where itdaddy is coming from. Even if the software was developed on company time I don't see how XYZ company could prove that the software is theirs without a patent on it.

You can hold a patent on an algorithm or a copyright on a piece of code. It is the copyright on the code that is in contention here.

paintb4707

msteinhilber wrote: »

If I were the employer and itdaddy decided to begin to sell code that he created while working on my dime, what if I decided to sue him. Perhaps I wouldn't be able to sue him for ownership of the code, who knows... I'm no lawyer... but I bet I could sue him for a percent of profit on his sales as he developed it on my time that I paid him for.

But how could you prove that he developed it on your time? You couldn't unless you had his desktop session recorded or you had him sign a contract prior describing whatever project he's working on.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he could turn it around and say that the company stole HIS code. There's really no proof either way.

msteinhilber

paintb4707 wrote: »

But how could you prove that he developed it on your time? You couldn't unless you had his desktop session recorded or you had him sign a contract prior describing whatever project he's working on.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he could turn it around and say that the company stole HIS code. There's really no proof either way.

He just admitted to developing it on company time right here on this public forum.

tiersten

paintb4707 wrote: »

But how could you prove that he developed it on your time? You couldn't unless you had his desktop session recorded or you had him sign a contract prior describing whatever project he's working on.

Read the link I posted above. It becomes complicated once it is something which is within the scope of your employment.

As others have said, it is time for a lawyer who is familiar with IP. I'm not counting on a favourable answer however.

paintb4707

msteinhilber wrote: »

He just admitted to developing it on company time right here on this public forum.

Did he announce his identity, location, and company name? Did he even describe what this code does for that matter?

tiersten

paintb4707 wrote: »

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he could turn it around and say that the company stole HIS code. There's really no proof either way.

Um yeah. That wouldn't be a good avenue to pursue. You'd be majorly screwed over if they caught you out. Even if they didn't, do you really want to lie?

tiersten

paintb4707 wrote: »

Did he announce his identity, location, and company name? Did he even describe what this code does for that matter?

He's talked to them about it already.

paintb4707

tiersten wrote: »

Um yeah. That wouldn't be a good avenue to pursue. You'd be majorly screwed over if they caught you out. Even if they didn't, do you really want to lie?

I'm not suggesting anything. Just pointing it out.

paintb4707

tiersten wrote: »

He's talked to them about it already.

Well that was a dumb move.

If that's the case, then that makes things a bit more complicated.

msteinhilber

paintb4707 wrote: »

Did he announce his identity, location, and company name? Did he even describe what this code does for that matter?

The poster mentioned the type of work he performs as well as the type of organization he works for. He's posted his blog site which has pictures of his CCNA certification with his name on it. There is plenty of proof to stand against him. He didn't describe the code, but does that really matter? Now there is a record of him asking if he can legally sell it, implying he wanted to profit from it. If it went to court he would have to display the code in question, then he would have to describe how his employer got it. It doesn't look good for him, hypothetically assuming a matter like this went to court.

paintb4707

msteinhilber wrote: »

The poster mentioned the type of work he performs as well as the type of organization he works for. He's posted his blog site which has pictures of his CCNA certification with his name on it. There is plenty of proof to stand against him. He didn't describe the code, but does that really matter? Now there is a record of him asking if he can legally sell it, implying he wanted to profit from it. If it went to court he would have to display the code in question, then he would have to describe how his employer got it. It doesn't look good for him, hypothetically assuming a matter like this went to court.

These must be previous posts you're talking about.

Anywho... I still think it's unlikely that anyone would stumble upon this very page without him identifying the things I listed. They'd also have to be pretty slick to begin with to think he openly admit his idea on the internet and went searching for it to use it as evidence. I for one would never think of that. I'd be searching for more specific things, like proof that he was actually selling this code, not something (on the internet) that has him admitting his plan to do so.

msteinhilber

This thread blew up quick

Anyways, regardless of all that's been said, a laywer is the ultimate best choice if you are serious about this itdaddy.

Hopefully you don't take offense to those of us who disagreed with you - I know that I was just trying to steer you in the direction that I think is where the law would side and I'm sure the rest of us are just trying to look out for you too. I don't want to not see you succeed or profit in your endeavors or anything like that, I wish you the best of luck and hopefully there's a way that you can end up marketing your idea and cashing in on it!