When to pursue CCIE?

nel

After reading gorebrush's post recently i have a few questions of my own.

At the moment i have the NA. Currently i am still at uni PT and have one year to go to finish my BSC Hons degree. At the moment im studying for the BCMSN on a secondary level too. Obviously, my main target is to finish my degree with a decent grading. However i also hope to have done at least 50% of the NP track by the time i finish my degree. As my degree is coming to an end i have begun seriously thinking of my future. Eventually i would like a high end network Architect role. Someone who not only designs systems but also has a strong implementation focus too (i like hands on more). So at the moment i was thinking of the R&S track primarily and eventually backing it up with the design track, voice and/or security. (long term of course). Now it terms of certification how would you's go? i know it depends on the person etc so i'll give some background info shortly. Would you go NP and straight to IE R&S or possibly something like NP > DA > DP > NA:Voice>VP>IE R&S?

now for the background..I am currently 23 years young! working in IT for nearly 7 years. Worked my way up from and apprentice > desktop support L2 > Sys admin > network engineer. Currently i work with cisco switching primarily and handle routing etc secondary. However all of our WAN links are moving to a managed service so i will not get to touch these in the future which is hugely dissapointing for me. I have been working in a networking role for 6 months now so im still learning alot but by the time i finish my degree / NP i should have approx 1 1/1 to 2 years experiance. This is when i will most likely decide which track to take (IE or something else).

I really would love to go and topple (i hope!) the IE R&S at that time but i am worried it will go against me due to my years of experiance etc. So im unsure to build up other tracks initially then go for the IE? Also to do what i want would it be best to work in a fully focused network role where you get to work with a wider range of network area's as i feel my current job will limit me in this, however it is a good place to start. I feel eventually i will have to relocate (again) to find the next step up i require anyway.

What do you guys think? i would just like to draw from your experiances and thoughts really. Although i know alot can happen in the time it will take before i get to this point.

CCIEWANNABE

from my experience and where i am currently my plan is in this order:

CCNA->CCNP->CCNA:SECURITY->CCDA->CCDP->CCIP->CCIE R&S

I am currently working on my qos exam as part of the CCIP. the reason i picked up the ccna:security was because there was a lot of the same material on the ISCW exam and that exam. As far as the design route, my friend gave me his ccda book, so i studied and got that. and for the ccdp, well i though i might as well get another professional level cert because it was only one more test! as for the ccip, well all the exams on the ccip are covered in depth on the ccie r&s exam, so i might as well pick that up on the way. and i can say that i am very happy that i chose this route. i am almost done with the qos exam cert guide, and it has taught me a lot about qos so far. i can't wait to hit the bgp and mpls exams as well. then after that its 100% ccie study time. i also work for DISA which is like a service provider for the military bases, so i get to see a lot of different network topology's and protocols being utilized. good luck on you path to the ccie. i hope you get there!

Turgon

nel wrote: »

After reading gorebrush's post recently i have a few questions of my own.

At the moment i have the NA. Currently i am still at uni PT and have one year to go to finish my BSC Hons degree. At the moment im studying for the BCMSN on a secondary level too. Obviously, my main target is to finish my degree with a decent grading. However i also hope to have done at least 50% of the NP track by the time i finish my degree. As my degree is coming to an end i have begun seriously thinking of my future. Eventually i would like a high end network Architect role. Someone who not only designs systems but also has a strong implementation focus too (i like hands on more). So at the moment i was thinking of the R&S track primarily and eventually backing it up with the design track, voice and/or security. (long term of course). Now it terms of certification how would you's go? i know it depends on the person etc so i'll give some background info shortly. Would you go NP and straight to IE R&S or possibly something like NP > DA > DP > NA:Voice>VP>IE R&S?

now for the background..I am currently 23 years young! working in IT for nearly 7 years. Worked my way up from and apprentice > desktop support L2 > Sys admin > network engineer. Currently i work with cisco switching primarily and handle routing etc secondary. However all of our WAN links are moving to a managed service so i will not get to touch these in the future which is hugely dissapointing for me. I have been working in a networking role for 6 months now so im still learning alot but by the time i finish my degree / NP i should have approx 1 1/1 to 2 years experiance. This is when i will most likely decide which track to take (IE or something else).

I really would love to go and topple (i hope!) the IE R&S at that time but i am worried it will go against me due to my years of experiance etc. So im unsure to build up other tracks initially then go for the IE? Also to do what i want would it be best to work in a fully focused network role where you get to work with a wider range of network area's as i feel my current job will limit me in this, however it is a good place to start. I feel eventually i will have to relocate (again) to find the next step up i require anyway.

What do you guys think? i would just like to draw from your experiances and thoughts really. Although i know alot can happen in the time it will take before i get to this point.

The CCIE is a huge requirement in terms of personal time. On that basis I would encourage people to take it on before they get too entrenched in family life and professional commitments. Regarding on the job training the more exposure you get to networking in your present role the better but if it's limited that doesn't necessarily have to hamper your CCIE preparations. Real world cisco experience certainly will help you put the studies into context as well as improve the CCIE learning experience though.

A lot of people hash an incremental program of certs to get to CCIE and this can be useful but it can also sometimes be counter productive if you postpone the CCIE 'launch' too long. Professional certs are helpful but the IE is a great leap forwards from that level and the workrate required to attain it is severe, so don't put it off too long.

CCNA/CCNP would be a decent foundation for the CCIE in R&S.

nel

Thanks for the advice guys. Two different opinions giving me alot to think of

Hopefully when the time comes my gut will tell me the path to lead! But there's no doubt i want to be standing at the top of the mountain looking down at some point!

CCIEWANNABE

well, good luck with whatever route you plan on pursuing. you are pretty young and you seem like you have the motivation, and with those two i'm sure you'll go pretty far with your career!

nel

CCIEWANNABE wrote: »

well, good luck with whatever route you plan on pursuing. you are pretty young and you seem like you have the motivation, and with those two i'm sure you'll go pretty far with your career!

Thanks Man!

rossonieri#1

hi nel,

IMHO - there are 2 kind of reasons to achieve a target :
1. a person who deeply need to achieve a target in order to sustain life
2. a person who pursue a target because that is what he likes to do (achieve target).

both turgon & cciewannabe answer both.

now - i cant give you better resolution can i? hehehe,
but for now, IMHO - unless you work at an ISP or large enterprise - go with CCNP track and then CCIE. Why? because the CCNP will give you broader networking perspective compares to specialized CCIP/VP.

well, just wishing you good luck

nel

Thanks rossonieri.

Yeah i intend to stick with the NP and finish my degree for the short term. Then i will see what my situation is nearer the time. Cant wait until i get to that stage though ...very exciting!

jrs91

Turgon wrote: »

The CCIE is a huge requirement in terms of personal time. On that basis I would encourage people to take it on before they get too entrenched in family life and professional commitments. Regarding on the job training the more exposure you get to networking in your present role the better but if it's limited that doesn't necessarily have to hamper your CCIE preparations. Real world cisco experience certainly will help you put the studies into context as well as improve the CCIE learning experience though.

A lot of people hash an incremental program of certs to get to CCIE and this can be useful but it can also sometimes be counter productive if you postpone the CCIE 'launch' too long. Professional certs are helpful but the IE is a great leap forwards from that level and the workrate required to attain it is severe, so don't put it off too long.

CCNA/CCNP would be a decent foundation for the CCIE in R&S.

Theoretical question, but what would you think of someone that passed CCIE and had far less than cisco's recommendations for attempting the labs (3-5 years)? I'm going to be in that position. I'm studying CCNP as soon as I finish my bachelors in an unrelated field, and as soon as I am done CCNP i'm moving on to CCIE, possibly with a CCDP or CCSP in between (haven't decided yet). I have 4 years of full-time IT experience, but I would call that real experience where I was the main guy, and not some lame helpdesk job. I went from programming, to programming+sysadmin, to running the small IT department for my company, which is basically the same job but with added responsability of having a couple people under me and the budget. I've never been idle at my job and have actually accomplished a lot and have blown my employers' expectations away, but it's not a cisco-centric job (I'll be looking for one of those as soon as I have the CCNP) and it's not what I want to be doing long-term. I'm getting out this summer.

Turgon

jrs91 wrote: »

Theoretical question, but what would you think of someone that passed CCIE and had far less than cisco's recommendations for attempting the labs (3-5 years)? I'm going to be in that position. I'm studying CCNP as soon as I finish my bachelors in an unrelated field, and as soon as I am done CCNP i'm moving on to CCIE, possibly with a CCDP or CCSP in between (haven't decided yet). I have 4 years of full-time IT experience, but I would call that real experience where I was the main guy, and not some lame helpdesk job. I went from programming, to programming+sysadmin, to running the small IT department for my company, which is basically the same job but with added responsability of having a couple people under me and the budget. I've never been idle at my job and have actually accomplished a lot and have blown my employers' expectations away, but it's not a cisco-centric job (I'll be looking for one of those as soon as I have the CCNP) and it's not what I want to be doing long-term. I'm getting out this summer.

To be honest with you if you get the CCIE you should fly regardless of your experience. You wouldn't (or shouldn't) walk into an architect role with your background but with that number doors that may get you there in years to come will open. Getting through the CCIE will be harder, and living up to the expectations of the CCIE moniker more demanding, and landing the plumb CCIE level jobs more difficult. But you can still do it and prosper. The CCIE experience recommendations are designed to make your expectations more realistic. Many people have made the grade with minimum (and with rare exceptions) no experience in the field with Cisco. That said, without minimum experience the journey to the CCIE and beyond has proven to be very frustrating for many, many more candidates than actually make it through. One of things that I find a little funny is how so many 'older hands' bemoan the fact that people are munching through certification tracks with so little background. Just how much experience did the older CCIE's have exactly when they were on their way to thanking the 'Brians' back in 2002 when they finally finished their CCIE track? Well, in some cases quite a lot, but in many others the experience was more or less what you have now. I suppose people get a little precious when they get their number, we will see how I feel about things in a couple of years time

My advice is to get a job that gives you as much hands-on as possible and ideally time and encouragement by the employer to learn the CCIE trade. If you can get on at Cisco or with an enlightened Cisco Partner so much the better. Most people who make it to CCIE work for Cisco directly or indirectly and generally enjoy more opportunity to progress their CCIE plans than folks outside that space. They generally get more access to resources as well. I say generally because you need to have the right role working for either Cisco or a Cisco Partner to accellerate your learning opportunities there, but if you have the right role then your CCIE journey will be smoother in terms of support, access to training materials and practice labs, equipment, courses, peers and mentors and all round availability of time on works time to get into your studies. All that said, this can really bring added pressure to pass if the company invests in your efforts, so there will still be very many evenings and weekends spent preparing for your lab.

If you are outside that space you can still make it. There are some considerations here though. Some people thrive on pressure in and out of work and happily spend 18 hours a day basically living their lives at breakneck speed. Good luck to them. If this is you then by all means operate like that but if it is not, try hard but don't try to become something you are not because you will become unhappy. Know yourself because the CCIE is going to ask some very tough questions. For most people (myself included) some lifestyle management can go a long way. While a really busy demanding job can bring lots of valuable experience, if you add family commitments to it and an aggressive lab prep regime to the mix then things might not add up so well. I had what you might call an accellerated career in that I changed jobs every two years and each change was a significant hike in responsibilities and at times worries. The experience was fantastic but it often left me tired after work and in many cases still mulling over the day ahead. I pressed on with my certs in the evenings in 2001 and 2002 doing well on theory and picking up the pace on my home lab, but eventually with work, commuting and family the time I had available for lab practice shrunk to a severely restricted level unacceptable if I was to prepare for properly and pass the lab exam. So I canned the preparations. And here we are today..hehehe..settled in the family life, gainfully employed and finally finishing unfinished business. I have great experience, but no CCIE..yet.

Looking back I could have made things a little easier on myself in terms of IE but at the same time I wouldn't have the experience I have behind me. A job with a Cisco partner would have helped, or a position that was less taxing in terms of day to day responsibilities and offered more downtime to crack open a book or do a lab. Some employer support for all that sort of thing would have been good as well. Quite frankly, back then I was either learning Cisco so I could do aspects of the job (no one to learn from at work), or simply learning a whole lot of stuff I wasn't using.

So I would say, look for a job where you get exposure to more equipment but also some time and space to learn on works time as well and ideally some encouragement for it as opposed to positions that are so demanding most evenings you get home whacked.

You can get through the CCIE inside 12 months if you make it a no 1 priority and manage to put the hours in but that's really only practical if everything else adds up i.e job commitments, personal commitments, commutes, energy for study etc. Social life will most likely be severely curbed as well if you go for a 12 monther. Avoid World of Warcraft. For those with a little more going on a 2 year window isn't uncommon and some people never get through. For all these reasons I would encourage folks to take the CCIE on when they are younger and have less going on both in and outside of work. Being smart helps too but that's not enough in itself.

Good luck!

jrs91

Thanks for the detailed and helpful response, Turgon.

I hate to say it, but I am the 80-90/hr a week workaholic type. :P With undergrad (which I didn't finish when I was younger) and 50-60 hrs a week at the office, that's what it essentially works out to. I have been doing this for the past 2 years. Once university is out of the way in a month and a half I can really get in to the cisco stuff full-time @ 30-40hrs/wk. I'm really itching to get started and I really don't care about social life until the CCIE is done (at which point i'll work on the next milestone but probably at a slower pace). I'm fortunate to be single and without kids, so lifestyle management isn't an issue for me in the way it is for you. I'm in my late 20s and wasted time when I was younger (ex-eq player, so I stay the hell away from MMOs now), and I feel like I need to make up for it by being super-focused on work and my own development now. Thankfully I'm like a sponge and I learn everything very quickly.

With this horrible economy, the only thing I'm still debating is whether to take an extended vacation or not. Back when economists were talking about a Q3 recovery, or at least flat growth, I was planning an 8 month trip that would be a mix of fun and 50-60hrs/wk of cisco. At that rate I figured I could really fly through the material, and do it in an exotic location while having some fun and visiting a few countries. At this point I'm worried about how long I would be out of work when I got back, even if I got all of the above-mentioned certs during my vacation. My current thinking is that I might just get the CCNP and look for a job right away.

You're also pushing me in the direction of not taking a long vacation and instead staying put and doing cisco for 80-90hrs/wk when I quit my job. By July, I will have enough in cash to not work and maintain my standard of living for over a year. If I went hardcore on the cisco I could accomplish a lot, and maybe even pass the CCIE, and then I could take a CCNP level job for a couple of years, work like hell getting as much experience as possible, continue to develop my skills, and then finally look for a CCIE-level job. Hopefully employers will look favorably upon my zeal and proven performance at my last job, despite my limited real-world cisco experience to date.

Good tip regarding the cisco partner thing. I hadn't thought of that. I guess I'll make the cal l in July when I give notice at my current job, and after I've had a taste of the CCNP-level stuff. I don't really foresee myself having difficulty with it though.

Thanks again!

Turgon

jrs91 wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed and helpful response, Turgon.

I hate to say it, but I am the 80-90/hr a week workaholic type. :P With undergrad (which I didn't finish when I was younger) and 50-60 hrs a week at the office, that's what it essentially works out to. I have been doing this for the past 2 years. Once university is out of the way in a month and a half I can really get in to the cisco stuff full-time @ 30-40hrs/wk. I'm really itching to get started and I really don't care about social life until the CCIE is done (at which point i'll work on the next milestone but probably at a slower pace). I'm fortunate to be single and without kids, so lifestyle management isn't an issue for me in the way it is for you. I'm in my late 20s and wasted time when I was younger (ex-eq player, so I stay the hell away from MMOs now), and I feel like I need to make up for it by being super-focused on work and my own development now. Thankfully I'm like a sponge and I learn everything very quickly.

With this horrible economy, the only thing I'm still debating is whether to take an extended vacation or not. Back when economists were talking about a Q3 recovery, or at least flat growth, I was planning an 8 month trip that would be a mix of fun and 50-60hrs/wk of cisco. At that rate I figured I could really fly through the material, and do it in an exotic location while having some fun and visiting a few countries. At this point I'm worried about how long I would be out of work when I got back, even if I got all of the above-mentioned certs during my vacation. My current thinking is that I might just get the CCNP and look for a job right away.

You're also pushing me in the direction of not taking a long vacation and instead staying put and doing cisco for 80-90hrs/wk when I quit my job. By July, I will have enough in cash to not work and maintain my standard of living for over a year. If I went hardcore on the cisco I could accomplish a lot, and maybe even pass the CCIE, and then I could take a CCNP level job for a couple of years, work like hell getting as much experience as possible, continue to develop my skills, and then finally look for a CCIE-level job. Hopefully employers will look favorably upon my zeal and proven performance at my last job, despite my limited real-world cisco experience to date.

Good tip regarding the cisco partner thing. I hadn't thought of that. I guess I'll make the cal l in July when I give notice at my current job, and after I've had a taste of the CCNP-level stuff. I don't really foresee myself having difficulty with it though.

Thanks again!

Your plans are good. I will offer some more advice but it's not important as you must decide what is best for you.

I wouldn't advise anyone to drop out of work completely to study for this thing. There are a number of reasons for this.

1. You lose out on potential earnings and each day that elapses you drain your financial reserves. A clearly obvious statement but the cost will add up very quickly!
2. You have no idea until you get into the track just how it will go and how long it will take, so that period out of work can get too long quite frankly.
3. Fulltime focus on the CCIE can be conducive to an earlier pass but it can also be counter productive. Having so much time on your hands, lab practice can get old pretty quickly and before long one can become demoralised as you realise there really is still soooo much to work on. It takes bloody ages to accumulate hundreds of hours of quality lab time and assimulate things properly. With a job to juggle you can find that while you have less time to prepare on a daily basis you get *up* for the time when you will do your meagre lab hours and the quality is high. That can be less so if you have endless time on your hands and it can really drag.

4. Similar to 3, a lot of hours to fill and you can get bored. Even if you work your socks off on say 20 labs across 6 weeks the chances are with nothing but cisco going on you will rush them to get them over with and miss out on an important learning experience.

5. Discipline. Quite frankly living in a box with cisco gear doesn't sit well with many people. You get distracted. I heard of one guy who made IE at lab attempt no 4 after 18 months preparing and he was off work on full pay to do it almost the whole way through. I imagine some time got wasted somewhere along the line there.

6. Lab rat. You become one. We all become one to some extent to prepare for this thing but I think if it's all you are doing then things can become a little too academic and you get out of touch with reality.

7. Feeds on from 6. The world of work is different from all of this. It has application but if you are out of the loop the best part of the year to do it, it can be difficult to relate to and fit in to real work when you return to the workplace and importantly the people you will be working with. You lived in a box. They didn't. Add to which (in your case) you really want to get more exposure to 'how' networking is done. You learn that in the field of work.

8. General health and social skills. A little variety is a healthy thing.

9. Obsession. It could drive you bonkers.


Now these are all potential pitfalls. They apply to everyone but not everyone falls into them. But they exist nevertheless even though a number of people have tried this and done really well out of it.

I would say that if you really can take the financial hit then plan to finish what you are doing in July and then give yourself a three month window to do the following..

1. Hunt down the *right* job that will give you useful exposure to Cisco while at the same time leave you with enough petrol to study properly evenings and weekends and ideally on workstime to some extent. Trust me, it may take three months to find a job that ticks enough of those boxes.
2. During the three months work your ass off on Cisco prep. Read a lot of books from the recommended reading list for the CCIE. Buy the technology labs from a vendor and spend three months doing them. Providing you work really hard this will jumpstart your CCIE progress. It will also give you a metric of how well you are handling things and importantly how well fulltime study sits with you. Just don't expect to pass the thing inside three months unless you have a great deal of experience as well as a ferocious work ethic 24/7.

Try out the written exam at the end of the three month period. If you study very hard indeed you have a shot at that if you are off work during the whole period.

Then get back to paid employment and study as you can.

chmod

If you could get a job for a cisco partner and then wait 1 or 2 years to gain experience as a consultant ant then start your CCIE track.

jrs91

Turgon wrote: »

I would say that if you really can take the financial hit then plan to finish what you are doing in July and then give yourself a three month window to do the following..

1. Hunt down the *right* job that will give you useful exposure to Cisco while at the same time leave you with enough petrol to study properly evenings and weekends and ideally on workstime to some extent. Trust me, it may take three months to find a job that ticks enough of those boxes.
2. During the three months work your ass off on Cisco prep. Read a lot of books from the recommended reading list for the CCIE. Buy the technology labs from a vendor and spend three months doing them. Providing you work really hard this will jumpstart your CCIE progress. It will also give you a metric of how well you are handling things and importantly how well fulltime study sits with you. Just don't expect to pass the thing inside three months unless you have a great deal of experience as well as a ferocious work ethic 24/7.

Try out the written exam at the end of the three month period. If you study very hard indeed you have a shot at that if you are off work during the whole period.

Then get back to paid employment and study as you can.

I think that this is very good advice. I was mulling over your post last night and considering my options. I decided then not to take the long trip that I was planning. I'm going to finish work in July and then I will do my best to put in the really long weeks when I quit to focus on cisco 24/7. After that I'll see where I stand and probably start looking for work. Today I ordered a loaded-up Humanscale Freedom chair in anticipation of 80/hrs a week that I will spend in front of a computer. :P

Oh and for variety and to get me out of the house, I am going to take a course on "techniques de base" or the basics of french cooking at the culinary academy. It's 3 hours a week and will give me something else to look forward to. It's something I've wanted to do for a while but haven't had time to do. I can't wait to be unemployed!

Turgon

chmod wrote: »

If you could get a job for a cisco partner and then wait 1 or 2 years to gain experience as a consultant ant then start your CCIE track.

Working for a partner could be ideal yes. I think you should have the CCIE before you call yourself a consultant though, but that's just me

jrs91

Turgon wrote: »

Working for a partner could be ideal yes. I think you should have the CCIE before you call yourself a consultant though, but that's just me

I had to work with an outside consultant for something not too long ago. He was from a large and respected firm. He claimed to have ccnp-level knowledge but had only completed the ccna (failed ccnp). I really wasn't impressed with his skills. I found myself doing the most of the work while he billed $125/hr. He knew absolutely nothing outside of R&S. He didn't know what iscsi was. Hell, he ddin't even know what TOS and DSCP were for. I guess he failed BSCI and never got to ONT. :P It amazes me the sort of people that are out there with pretty decent jobs that are totally unsuited for them.