DUMPster diving

A co-worker of mine just passed an MS exam and we were discussing it, and here comes the boss lady joining in on the conversation. This lady literally doesn't know the difference between a hub/switch/router. I've always just assumed she was a non-technical manager type. I have helped her with very basic stuff in the past.

Lo and behold, she says "Oh yeah, I've got MCSE, MCITP:EA, CCNP, CCVP. I've got a bunch of those."

She proceeds to rattle off all of the well known **** sites that she used to "study", and then acted ignorant when I sarcastically mentioned that it "must be nice to know all of the answers ahead of time."

Turns out, they get a skills incentive bonus for holding professional level certifications. Apparently, it is just common practice for all of these managers to just **** a bunch of certifications for the bonus.

Is it bad that for a second or two, I wanted to punch her in the face? Nope, I quietly excused myself back to my desk to watch my CBT Nuggets...

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msteinhilber

LarryDaMan wrote: »

Is it bad that for a second or two, I wanted to punch her in the face?

I believe the only failure here is your lack of follow through

aaronchristenson

If someone wanted how would you go about reporting them to Microsoft or Prometric about their cheating on exams?

Super99

I think she's blowing smoke.

RTmarc

Super99 wrote: »

I think she's blowing smoke.

I doubt it. I know of quite a few companies that give this very same kind of incentive and I know of people that have taken advantage of it in the exact same manner as listed below. Tack on a certification, they give you a raise/bonus.

Bokeh

Too bad MS, Cisco, etc couldn't select those folks at random, have them report for a no notice or short notice test and see if they can pass. Dont pass again? Suspend the cert for a year.

LarryDaMan

aaronchristenson wrote: »

If someone wanted how would you go about reporting them to Microsoft or Prometric about their cheating on exams?

If I thought it would do any good, I would report her in a second. It would not do any good. There is no way to prove anything, and no mechanisms in place to deal with these things.

SrAtechie

Guilty! I'm one of those people who earned a cert to get a raise.

Seriously, that is something that I think will never go away as long as the folks handing out the cash are willing to take the easy way out and just throw the money at those with a long line of certifications rather than taking the harder route and actually evaluating the individual themself. I used to get angry about it, but I finally resolved that getting angry about it won't get me any closer to my goals. So I just ignore the paper cert holders and chug along. Besides, they're not the only ones that get bonuses/raises from certifications right? It benefits us (the honest test takers) as well.
You know what really gets my goat? It's those IT folks that are know-it-alls and just all-around jerks that think just because you may not know some particularly obscure windows command or that you need some time to plan what you're doing when "it's so easy I can do it in 30 seconds" that you are a complete moron and shouldn't be in IT. Talk about needing a punch in the face!

By the way, pass along my congratulations to your coworker for the pass!

motogpman

I wish that my company did the bonus/incentive for passing. I am sure that I will one day find a compnay like that, problem is, I will probably be at the point where only 1 or 2 certs would be left, LOL. Since I have been here, I've gotten my Sec+, MCSA:Sec, and will finish MCSE in a few months ( lord willing). I can take that anywhere no strings attached.

I can attest that working with "papers" makes them VERY visible and it is only a matter of time before they are weeded out. I try to take the attitude that when it is time to shine, then all my hard work will pay off for my family and I. The main reasan though is that I don't like looking stupid.

SrAtechie: Yeah, I know there are benefits to both cli and gui commmands or ways to accomplish things. I have worked with a few of "those guys" too, the funny thing is, by the time they finish correcting their typos's or something, I am done. It's always nice to have someone interrupt you when you are talking to someone about fixing a problem and they butt in. I contribute it to insecurity.

nel

Doesnt suprise me at all. **** seem to be nearly everywhere, except at TE thankfully. I have come across plenty of people, of all levels, using them. Even a uni i went to handed them out as a resource!

Just make sure you arent one of those folk cos when push comes to shuv they wont know sh*t when it is really required.

UnixGuy

I'm not surprised either, these managers and even "engineer" think they really pass the exam, and I really laugh at them and don't even bother to give them advice....who cares, they just wasted time and money on that "cert"....

whatthehell

Haven't ever used a ****, and taken all my tests straight up --- so yes it is very frustrating to hear basic ID10ts have honestly very difficult certs only because they memorized the @#*^ answers.

Also, I strongly agree about the insecure jackazzes who always have something to say and always have to "one-up" other people. The worst are the really really loud ones who always butt in and take over a conversation. They tend to be mainly repeating information already said, no fruitfully contributing to the conversation, and, in worst case scenarios, they are completely wrong.

What can you do though? Such is life!
Hopefully everyone's workplace is filled with intelligent, friendly people, but unfortunately not always the case

ilcram19-2

aparently she is not that dumb she probably get pay better that some other people, i think is all about ethics in life nothing is fair even life cheats sometimes obviously the employer dotn care so what would you? i trutly dont care if any one use those things either way im still the best in my book

Slowhand

My last company not only gave bonuses for getting a new exam done every quarter, they would punish us for not doing it by docking a severe amount of our normal bonus. They wouldn't give us time to study during work, mention our "lack of ambition by ignoring the cert-requirements" during reviews, basically holding us accountable for our free time. Suffice it to say, there were quite a few people that turned to **** as the noose tightened as those performance reviews began to pile up.

I did my best to provide any help I could, trying to keep people off the **** and on the regular training material, but the stress, pressure, and ultra-low morale won out for most people.

KGhaleon

Yes, sadly I know several people who use braindumps. I've told them that it's illegal and even sent them nearly ten links to websites discussing braindump activity but it had no effect.

I've given up on some people. They just don't care as long as they get the cert. <_<
I'm embarrassed to work with them.

LarryDaMan

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

aparently she is not that dumb she probably get pay better that some other people, i think is all about ethics in life nothing is fair even life cheats sometimes obviously the employer dotn care so what would you?

I think you're wrong, ethics is important on several levels. The fact that someone would knowingly **** on a test tells a lot about the character of the person. Would a person like that be more likely to steal from you? What else would they do to get ahead? Would you trust that person?

ilcram19-2

in the prefect world i would care of course if our employers and the people in general were honest and dont try to screw us up but put it this way we going to be working for the rest of out lives, the compinies dont give a crap about us any company or anybody thats just how the system is build, i dont think that it wouold up set me if someone is screwing the system, i've always care about my job and i always try to keep one but besides that i just let everyone else live things wont ever be perfect everybody just trying to survive and pay mortage an apart of all that we are what we are thought to be there is no one outhere that is not product of our screwed up society, so now tell me if she is wrong for trying to survive?

KGhaleon

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

in the prefect world i would care of course if our employers and the people in general were honest and dont try to screw us up but put it this way we going to be working for the rest of out lives, the compinies dont give a crap about us any company or anybody thats just how the system is build, i dont think that it wouold up set me if someone is screwing the system, i've always care about my job and i always try to keep one but besides that i just let everyone else live things wont ever be perfect everybody just trying to survive and pay mortage an apart of all that we are what we are thought to be there is no one outhere that is not product of our screwed up society, so now tell me if she is wrong for trying to survive?

And thus we come back to that age old question: Is it ok for a starving person to steal an apple?

Brain dumping is cheating, plain and simple. It's illegal and you can lose your certs if caught. There's nothing good about it no matter how you sugarcoat it.

LarryDaMan

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

in the prefect world i would care of course if our employers and the people in general were honest and dont try to screw us up but put it this way we going to be working for the rest of out lives, the compinies dont give a crap about us any company or anybody thats just how the system is build, i dont think that it wouold up set me if someone is screwing the system, i've always care about my job and i always try to keep one but besides that i just let everyone else live things wont ever be perfect everybody just trying to survive and pay mortage an apart of all that we are what we are thought to be there is no one outhere that is not product of our screwed up society, so now tell me if she is wrong for trying to survive?

I had a hard time with your grammar and spelling trying to figure out your point. Who cares about employers or anyone else? YOU would know that you cheated. Everytime you looked at your certificate, YOU would know that it was a fraud. That should be enough.

msteinhilber

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

so now tell me if she is wrong for trying to survive?

She is wrong, you are too. Maybe you've just worked for far too many bad companies, but there are organizations out there that value their employees. If the system as you put it was really built the way you paint it to be, the world would be much worse off than things are now.

Regarding your first comment about better pay, perhaps she might get better pay in the short term. In the long term, however, she will be getting much less pay at some point more than likely once the lack of knowledge finally catches up to her - the odds are against anybody who cheats the system, it's just a matter of time before a certain situation arises and all of a sudden you are not the incredibly smart super-certified individual you are pretending to be.

Lastly, that had to be the longest run-on sentence I've ever read (recently).

dynamik

It seems like she's just going with what's convenient and easy.

I think I would make an exception if someone's survival literally depended on it

msteinhilber

dynamik wrote: »

It seems like she's just going with what's convenient and easy.

I think I would make an exception if someone's survival literally depended on it

I lapsed and my brain didn't process "just going with what's convenient and" so it read a bit different... but after re-reading, I suppose that's about right. Dumpers tend to go with what would be easy, I have a friend that's been cranking out certs and has been using **** as well (MCITP: EA and a few MCTS beyond the MCITP requirements in 6 months) and it's always about how easy it was to pass. At least I know they are still actually setting up things in a lab and they have a fairly elaborate setup at home and work to test things out on, they probably wouldn't even need to use the **** but I guess they are just concerned with a possible fail - not sure.

ilcram19-2

and guess what you gonna keep working for the "good company" that is not "screwing you over", i've work for really good companies that pay for my insurance, match 401k, give employee disability and pay for all my school in fact the one that i have does all that plus life insurance, but u tell where is our life there "working for the companie of course" just a new form of slavery, but i guess we can just base everything on ethics, just dont be to close minded and try to undestand people and why they act the way they act there is always a history behind it or perhaps they dont have they the same capacity as others (which i we all do)

ilcram19-2

msteinhilber wrote: »

I lapsed and my brain didn't process "just going with what's convenient and" so it read a bit different... but after re-reading, I suppose that's about right. Dumpers tend to go with what would be easy, I have a friend that's been cranking out certs and has been using **** as well (MCITP: EA and a few MCTS beyond the MCITP requirements in 6 months) and it's always about how easy it was to pass. At least I know they are still actually setting up things in a lab and they have a fairly elaborate setup at home and work to test things out on, they probably wouldn't even need to use the **** but I guess they are just concerned with a possible fail - not sure.

dont they take pictures now? cisco took my picture on my last test? i wonder if they been coughting people

ilcram19-2

LarryDaMan wrote: »

I had a hard time with your grammar and spelling trying to figure out your point. Who cares about employers or anyone else? YOU would know that you cheated. Everytime you looked at your certificate, YOU would know that it was a fraud. That should be enough.

sorry man i know

Slowhand

msteinhilber wrote: »

Lastly, that had to be the longest run-on sentence I've ever read (recently).

Obviously, you've never read any of the papers I wrote for my English classes.

ilcram19-2

Slowhand wrote: »

Obviously, you've never read any of the papers I wrote for my English classes.

you can blame my english teacher, is kind of confusing the puctuation between lenguajes so i just keep writting lol

msteinhilber

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

and guess what you gonna keep working for the "good company" that is not "screwing you over", i've work for really good companies that pay for my insurance, match 401k, give employee disability and pay for all my school in fact the one that i have does all that plus life insurance, but u tell where is our life there "working for the companie of course" just a new form of slavery, but i guess we can just base everything on ethics, just dont be to close minded and try to undestand people and why they act the way they act there is always a history behind it or perhaps they dont have they the same capacity as others (which i we all do)

If this is the way you genuinely feel, then I can see two choices.

You can either continue "working for the company" which many people do and make a healthy living doing so.

Or...

You can take charge instead of complaining about it, and open your own company - but in a round about way, that would just flip roles and since you apparently think any "company" is about controlling slaves so perhaps you shouldn't "open your own company".

I'm not the one who shouldn't be so closed minded, you are the person who seems to be so against "working for the company". If one doesn't "work for the company" then one must own the company, and if one owns a company does that make them evil by default since you have such a poor view of "working for a company"? So what exactly is one supposed to do? What else is there, I'm really at a loss here.

Slowhand

The fact of the matter is that people who **** can be successful, but only to a point. They can get by with fooling HR people and CEOs, slipping by with just enough knowledge not to get fired. (At least, not get fired before they move on to a new company and demand higher pay/better benefits.) The real issue is that this ceiling isn't all that high, especially if you ever want to retire some day and not be an IT worker until you're 85. If you want to move up to senior-level work, management, and maybe even executive management, you're going to need those underlying skills you got certified on to build your experience upon.

Using **** is, for all intents and purposes, a get-rich-quick scheme. You can jump from job to job, flashing your credentials and getting by on reputation alone for a while, but that really only works as long as you keep all the juggling-balls in the air: don't get exposed, don't take on projects you know you can't do, and make sure the people you work with and possibly manage don't outshine you and you get the axe when times are tough. Worst of all, if you end up gaining a reputation for being incompetent or over-hyped, you'll have to go a long way before you find an employer that's never heard of you, whereas an experienced and respected professional that's earned his or her reptuation can walk away from any layoff or resignation and have a good, solid foundation to stand on when looking for work.

True, you can still get hired with a paper cert, but how long do you last? When can you stop living from paycheck to paycheck and hopping from job to job with your paper mache life raft?

ilcram19-2

msteinhilber wrote: »

If this is the way you genuinely feel, then I can see two choices.

You can either continue "working for the company" which many people do and make a healthy living doing so.

Or...

You can take charge instead of complaining about it, and open your own company - but in a round about way, that would just flip roles and since you apparently think any "company" is about controlling slaves so perhaps you shouldn't "open your own company".

I'm not the one who shouldn't be so closed minded, you are the person who seems to be so against "working for the company". If one doesn't "work for the company" then one must own the company, and if one owns a company does that make them evil by default since you have such a poor view of "working for a company"? So what exactly is one supposed to do? What else is there, I'm really at a loss here.

same place that im at what else can we do?, i cant open a company becasue i dont have money or something that i can sell that people would way (besides fixing computers but i dont like to charge to people so) the way i see and i could be wrong we live in a monetary system that we have to work to get money to survive and live "happy" ever after and everything else falls in to that "money" if you dont have it get it ,if you have it get more i know you wouldnt undestand what im comming from and im not saying that im right either but that girl probably have kids or something and she just found and easier way to have a job and get money to provide for her family but then i could be wrong she probably just a lazy whxxxx but instead of complaning how other people **** their way through live i would just wutch and let them be

ilcram19-2

do we have spell check somewhere in here? lol