why is it that CIOs don't have to be trained in IT???

itdaddy

Catherine Doran, Director of Corporate Development - CIO50 2009 at Silicon.com


I don't get it..why why why is it that people don't higher as their CIOs someone who is money savvy and IT savvy..her degree is in math and geography??? huh? and you are leading and directing hundreds of IT professionals. That is like my boss who knows nothing of IT barely and he runs the IT show. I can tell you countless times how money has been spent wrongly! My God am I the only one who sees this??? She may be smart, great, but they just dont know IT systems to the core. Doing computers as a hobby to me isnt enough.

I would rather higher a network engineer who is business savvy not a
math and geography person. Experience is essential but so is really knowing IT systems and how they really work together....I have seen it hundreds of times where our money has been spent wrongly..help why is this? So what if she understands computers big woopy..but does she really understand IT systems??

Crap I might as well **** my hard earned Computer Science degree and get a degree in fishing!

CIOs have it made they can be called an IT person but not really and get to lead IT pros that is like a Electronics Technician leading Electronic Engineers but that Eletronic tech and a business degree and is telling the EEs how to design circuits and
what to do here and there..just doesn't seem right!

blargoe

Well, at least now you know what you have to do to move up. Go back to school and brush up on cartography and calculus.

KGhaleon

As stated, they know the business. So it's not necessary to know IT when you can just consult with their mindless drones. My IT department is all male, but our boss is female and knows business by the back of her hand. She also picks up on things fast and pretends to know what she is talking about 90% of the time. She does it so well it's scary. o_o

blargoe

What's worse is when you have a CIO that knows neither Business nor IT....

Tyrant1919

As long as they consult their lower technologically inclined peons when needed, I believe one could be a good CIO without in depth IT knowledge.

undomiel

I was in art school working on a BFA. Does that make me unqualified for working in IT then?

...

Do you actually know what a CIO does?

Paul Boz

Try having to consult with companies who hire CSOs or VPs of security who can't even draft an internet usage policy, nevermind know what a firewall is.

The problem with these scenarios is that you wind up with IT departments with no muscle or respect in the organization.

dynamik

undomiel wrote: »

I was in art school working on a BFA. Does that make me unqualified for working in IT then?

Yes. You should have at least gone for a psych degree like me

Regarding the OP, it doesn't bother me that they're less technically proficient than me; any expectations otherwise would be unrealistic. That's not their job. However, it is their responsibility to understand how things work at a high level.

CompuTron99

itdaddy wrote: »

Crap I might as well **** my hard earned Computer Science degree and get a degree in fishing!

Here you go itdaddy:

Fishing Technology / Commercial Fishing Colleges and Fishing Technology / Commercial Fishing Schools | USCS

itdaddy

Computron
hahahahahhah that is hilarious! hahaah

Okay some of you guys don't care if they know jack about IT systems. Come on I am not starting anything here. I am just pissed about this issue. How can you make good IT decisions if you don't have a clue really about IT system details. Maybe I am so use to ego maniacs who only consult with themselves.

I mean but it makes me nutz to think about this. Another example. This guy I know, big guy he was, and he was head of IT over at this place call Travel Guard. I met with him because he wanted to put a camera on our building next to his so he can have some surveillance. He was using a PIX firewall and I was asking him some questions about the firewall.

And you know what he said?? huh?? not my area of expertise?!! I go oh I am sorry.... This guy was head of security now but was head of IT for along time OMG!
I thought another guy like this..head of something but doesn't have a clue.

I see it every day somebody head of something and has no clue..
Just pisses me off I work hard to get my degree in computer science (since I really like coding not that hard) but calc II and Physics I/II blood sweat and tears I tell you and then you end up having your boss have a bachelors in English and an MBA and no certs and bam telling you what he is going to purchase to help the company save money but in the end screwing the customer or members or users and then **** them off? holy crap..I want a job like that CIOs the executive untouchable! yeah!

I work to dam n hard! I need to just get my MBA and heck apply for a CIO job yeah! I can spend money and talk a good talk. I am not required as a CIO to chase cert after cert to increase my pay. that is the job of the engineer monkies below me who I am in charge over. That is the ticket. No more chasing certs just get my MBA and my experience and my goood looks haahha an get me that big buck job and blame all the headaches on those incompetant engineers below me;!

You guys are right my boss is the exact same way...I have seen him on the phone talk to say an engineer and then repeat the exact words to me
and or to an executive just like he knew what he was talking about.
But as soon as I asked him a direct question about the devices /and or topics,
he got pissed and told me it is not my decision? I said huh????? I just asked you a question why are you getting alll upset! Then it dawned on me dude you don't know jacK do you I thought! Then I saw the light--MBA here I come!
yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I like that tile Director IT Daddy or CIO robert ! yeah! !!!!!!!!!!
I can push all the engineers around that I want and if they don't listen to me I can fire them and hire someone else! yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am freee no more chasing certs yes I can just be free to be meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


hahaah haahahah hahah
haah

no i have no issues here.......

itdaddy

undomiel

Of course I know what a CIO does...I see you have tons of certs.
What I am saying is yes, if you have a light way degree that really doesn't pertain to understanding IT then yes, I say you are not qualified. But a guy like you with those certs for sure makes you qualified. If you had a 4 year degree in English or history, and and MBA and then the certs you have i would say yes you are qualified but if you just had your 4 year degree and an MBA and ask me if you are qualified to be CIO i would say NO you are not. CIOs really need to understand the deep levels in IT not just systems and graphs and charts or be one heck of good listener and respect the engineers below him. The problem I see is lack of respect. These CIOs have never been in the IT trenches and lack the respect and listening power to really run a IT Enterprise..If they are a good listen and respect their engineers then sure I could respect them but I can cound on my fingers and toes how many unqualified CIOs I have seen who do not listen nor do the respect those below them..and by the looks of it neither has anyone on this forum thread I started. It is like the difference between Eletcronic techs and Electronic engineers big difference! But I could be a EE Tech that respects and EE easily. That is what I am trying to get at...undomiel Your degree and your certs combine to me qualifies you as qualified but a degree alone doesnt!
Also, you must have been one of the lucky ones who has never met a CIO or IT Manager who doesnt know jack about IT systems but is in charge of the budget buying stuff we dont even need or buying something that is way out of price range because we need cause the IT vendor said so kind of thing...luck you!!!!!!!! makes me sick how this can continue....

LarryDaMan

Ideally, a CIO should have a background in technology. However, I've heard people say that a great project manager can effectively manage a project without knowing anything about the work being done. I am not so sure that is true. But, as a CIO you are a manager of people, policy, processes, and resources. CIOs are the liaison or bridge between the business side and the technical side and should not have to decide which router or switch to buy. CIOs should let the pee-ons to do that stuff

skrpune

itdaddy, I'm not sure why you assume that she knows jack about IT just because she doesn't have a directly IT-related degree. From this interview, it sounds like quite the opposite. She's been in IT for 30 years.

Paul Boz

itdaddy wrote: »

Computron
He was using a PIX firewall and I was asking him some questions about the firewall.

And you know what he said?? huh?? not my area of expertise?!

I thought another guy like this..head of something but doesn't have a clue.

I see it every day somebody head of something and has no clue..
Just pisses me off I work hard to get my degree in computer science

First of all, don't think that that IT director (or whatever title) didn't work hard to get wherever he or she is. Very seldom do people make it into upper management if they're incompetent.

Second, I can totally understand why someone in management would not be knowledgeable on certain technologies. Just because you are over someone does not mean you can do their job. It just means that you can provide guidance for the entire group while allowing experts to do individual tasks. I have never seen an IT director that can do DBA, networking, support, and security all in one, and be successful. A part of being an IT director is knowing how to hire the right people to get the job done. Just because you may not know every technology implemented doesn't mean you don't have a clue.

The poor managers that I see aren't poor for the reasons you outlined but because they don't hire good people, they have no vision, and they're usually not suited for the job. Not because they can't configure a database, get a firewall set up, and handle support tickets.

WillTech105

I know what you mean ,itdaddy

I used to work for a CIO who got PROMOTED for spending and wasting money on stupid things and now that she got promoted all of a sudden she wants to start implementing a Citrix enviornment out of the blue!!

To put it simply -- we had a company of about 600 users. NINE IT people AND she hired a consultant to do easy work (hell -- i could of done it if she let me but I was the mere PC Tech at the time).

One of the reasons I'm glad I got into consulting myself -- I got tired of following CIOs that dont know what their doing.

itdaddy

Sure 30 years IT experience sure. Having all the IT people give them their knowledge that they have worked very hard for...I give my boss all the time my expert knowledge. He is amazed on what I know and it shocks me cause to me I don’t know jack compare to some of you guys. and this guy leads IT here. What I am saying is this...you mean to tell me these CIOs and IT Directors and Managers can make good decisions with their geology backgrounds come on....for example would you hire a doctor who wasn’t really a doctor to take care of you baby? when he or she was sick and to make decisions because they were a good day care worker and made good decisions??? CIOs minimum should have some basic IT qualifications. I understand what they do I work with many of them but how can you buy systems or decide what new IT stuff to get when you really don’t know if they are really what you need...I guess I know what field I want to get into. way less work and way more pay while i tell you engineers who bust your arses what to do peons! sounds good....and you will call me IT! love it.....all I need is my MBA and I am 2/3s my way there. Thanks guys
for you help. sorry if I am sounding like stupid arse but I still stand on it. how can you make a decision if you really don’t understand what is going on. really. if the CIOs can ask the right questions and respect engineers sure I can respect a CIO and maybe this lady did that. I am not picking on her. just her background. i would like to have seen some big certs there something juniper for gosh sake! anything details in IT not just I have worked with many smiling faces and bought many IT items...I am network
admin and I have to understand many things I mean from IIS servers to AIX IBM p5 series servers to network engineering to programming and scripting...I can see all sides of IT which makes for better judgment calls that degrees in English and geology and then a hop skip and jump to big doe and overseeing engineers and techs...I just got done working with a CIO from a huge company smart guy but knew nothing about IT and I asked him some questions and then I knew he really doesn’t understand..
just makes me nutz to see this....

I am sure you guys will make great CIOs sounds like you want to be one...
But you wouldn’t be on the techexams forum if you didn’t bust your butt to understand IT systems my hat goes off to you!

And I am sure this lady is smart. but I would hope that they could give some details in IT about her. 30 years doing what? I can spend 5 years doing help desk or something and or 5 years rebuilding networks. depends really what those 30 years consisted of

itdaddy

WillTech105

dude you made my day somebody who has the ba lls to say the truth!

thanks a lot. I see it all the time. spending money on stuff we dont even need then when you confront them on it they use their authority to smash you down..I say CIOs need to have basic understand (network+, security+, Linux+, and ccent, and maybe MCP) atleast along with MBA to understand what is going on really...I mean basic certs.then they can qualify to talk to engineers. sure they should know every detail but yuo can have the basics and better listen to the engineers if you really understand the basics of IT systems..that is all I am saying...
but to be honest I think I am changing my goes to CIO all I need is my MBA and I am on my way...but I can assure you I will listen to my engineers and show them respect! and they will know that I know something about IT cause I will show them my scares!
rock on dudes !

itdaddy

WillTech105

you said:

To put it simply -- we had a company of about 600 users. NINE IT people AND she hired a consultant to do easy work (hell -- i could of done it if she let me but I was the mere PC Tech at the

insulting isnt it! just pisses a guy off. they do that so you dont show them up. my boss does the exact same thing. he knows I can do the work but hires a vendor to come and do some of our stuff. but who fixes the stuff when the vendor techs cant be reached---little ole dummy me!

just pisses a buy off..they do it and get all that power...and the people above them or at their level are snowed all the time...CIO here I come!
but i can tell you now I am not partying with stupid CIOs haahahah:)

WillTech105

itdaddy wrote: »

WillTech105

dude you made my day somebody who has the ba lls to say the truth!
QUOTE]

Hahaha.

I think you have to experience first before you really know what it feels like to work with someone who doesnt know that their doing and can justify (no lie) -- "Windows Server 2003 is more secure than Linux"). I wanted to just walk out of that meeting and go home for the day when I heard that. I'll admit its impossible to know everything but STILL -- I agree with itdaddy at least know the basics.

skrpune

itdaddy wrote: »

Sure 30 years IT experience sure. Having all the IT people give them their knowledge that they have worked very hard for...I give my boss all the time my expert knowledge. He is amazed on what I know and it shocks me cause to me I don’t know jack compare to some of you guys. and this guy leads IT here. What I am saying is this...you mean to tell me these CIOs and IT Directors and Managers can make good decisions with their geology backgrounds come on....

First, she's got a dual math & geography degree, not geology - it's a totally different field. Second...HEY, what's wrong with a geology degree?! I've got one and I can attest that it doesn't mean that I'm a boob when it comes to IT. There are plenty of others here who don't have a degree in IT/computer science but who are qualified people nonetheless.

I believe you are entitled to your opinions, but I'm entitled to mine as well - and my opinion is that if someone has the skills, then it just might not matter if they've got that specific flavor of degree. There is ONE person in the entire IT department where I work that has a "pure" IT degree - computer engineering - and everyone else who has a bachelors either has english, architecture, etc., and they are some very skilled and knowledgeable people. And I don't work for a fly-by-night company either - I work in the IT department for one of the top rated business schools in the country, so the standards here are pretty high. Having traditional training is great, but it's not the end all and be all of a career in IT.

itdaddy wrote:

And I am sure this lady is smart. but I would hope that they could give some details in IT about her. 30 years doing what? I can spend 5 years doing help desk or something and or 5 years rebuilding networks. depends really what those 30 years consisted of

Did you read through the interview link? She gives a quick breakdown of her path:

...
One of the UK’s most high-profile female technologists, Catherine Doran, recounts her spectacular ascent to chief information officer for Network Rail as if it were a happy accident.
‘I actually didn’t know what computer programmers did but I saw an advert in my local paper after university and was interested to find out rather than becoming a maths teacher,’ she says.
Needless to say Doran got the job. It was the first rung of a career ladder which would lead her to her present role in which she has responsibility for the operation of all of Network Rail’s computer systems, as well as systems development and responsibility for data management and records at a national level.
Doran’s career path to chief information officer at the organisation started with an arts degree in maths and geography, which she was awarded in her homeland of Ireland, followed by an early career as a pure technologist. ‘My career path was trainee programmer, programmer, team leader, designer, project leader and so on,’ she says.

That interview was not related to the original article you linked to, and it's not meant to serve as her CV/resume in IT. But it just goes to show you that not all CIOs are utter morons who just accidentally fall into some high paying job without any sort of hard work. No offense, but before you go talking about how she's unqualified, you should do some research, and you shouldn't assume that someone has no experience in the field or that they have no business being in IT if they don't have a computer science degree.

msteinhilber

skrpune wrote: »

But it just goes to show you that not all CIOs are utter morons who just accidentally fall into some high paying job without any sort of hard work.

Not to mention that some of the common complains I read about CIOs or managers in general come from people saying they made poor decisions with implementing, spending, whatever. A lot of people fail to realize that in IT there are so many ways to accomplish the same task. The opinion of a worker underneath a member of management might have good intent and be a great way to accomplish the same task, but often times might be a micro view of a small slice of the organization such as what is best for the IT department. On the flip side, the decisions a CIO should be making should have more of a broad view including both the organization itself as well as factors outside of the organization that might be impacted by any decisions made. It's easy to nag and complain about decisions a manager makes, but try to picture the big scheme of things and see if there might be reasons certain decisions are made.

undomiel

itdaddy wrote: »

Having all the IT people give them their knowledge that they have worked very hard for...I give my boss all the time my expert knowledge. He is amazed on what I know ...

Your boss, well company technically, pays you for that knowledge. That is what you're there for, to do what he can't do or what he doesn't have the time to do. Back in the government job our IT director was a Cisco guy, but he knew mostly nothing about servers. He had a hard time grasping virtualization and kept reaching for real nics. But I did not think him a bad director just because he did not understand servers. When he needed to know something about servers, and the same went for the CIO as well, he would come find myself or the other senior admin and find out what he needed to know. I would rather see a CIO with an MBA than with a bunch of certifications. The certifications may mean he has done the time in the trenches (we won't broach the topic of **** here) but it doesn't mean he would know a blessed thing about managing the business side of things, being a good manager, or even planning IT strategies. Just because you may be a good admin doesn't mean you would be a good CIO. I know that I most likely would not do well at it. I don't enjoy the business side. I'd rather be managing the servers.

By the way if you thought I have a degree I don't. I just said that I studied art. I have no IT training. I just read a lot and play in my virtual labs.

itdaddy

skrpune

I actually didn’t know what computer programmers (my point exactly) did but I saw an advert in my local paper after university and was interested to find out rather than becoming a maths teacher,’ she

please correct me but didnt she say she didnt even know what computer programming did????and she landed the job? give me a break...it is the people who build the IT system and maintain. I understand how directors get their jobs and CIOs IT managers come on I have lived long enough to know. I may have typed too fast to make a mistake on the degree ooops my bad like I said.this is my future path..

1. BS degree CS almost done
2. MBA going to get
3. CCNA have already
4. MCP have already
5. MCSE working on
Bam I will be your boss and you poor dudes will still be slaving away at certs and eduction to make a buck
while I can just play with the companies money and talking a big talk like I know what I am doing and traveling the world! hahaahahaaa(being sarcastic I dont really mean this)
I love my job I am done!



Like I said there are levels of IT that makes you a better IT person.
For example, oops something is wrong with this computer, I think I will redo it ma'am bam reinstalled the OS and applications I am a genius..
2nd tech who has worked hard in IT to understand it.
bam ma'am it is an incorrect driver let me reinstalll the new one bam!

there are many different ways to fix IT systems...some are better than others. and what I am trying to say without knocking anyone geology geography or engish degree down is that sure you can make some good decision based off of simple circle fits into circle shape block fits into block shape done! It is a shame that companies don't require just alittle more IT basics before you become director over engineers and such or you had better listen to your engineers closely! and be a darn good judge of character. but it would be nice if they were required to be(network+, A+, Linux+, and sec+ and ccna,and MCP) these six certs are very basic to me compared to the level of IT understanding one should have. If you are the captain of the ship you had better know what it is like to srub the deck is my point of view....done! That is all I am saying.....but looks to me that most CIOs and Directors of IT have never really scrubbed the ships deck before so how can you really make and informed decision!

skrpune

I gotta say two things:
- at least she has the cajones to say that she didn't know what it was all about but still decided to check it out and go for it, and then make a career (and a damn fine one at that) out of it.
- 30 years ago, computer science largely WAS mathematics and there were few computer science bachelors programs out there, so in having a math-geography degree, she was probably pretty well equipped.

I think it's even more admirable that she went from not knowing jack about programming to being a programmer to team leader, etc. And honestly, if you want to focus on that one sentence and just ignore 30 years of experience and focus on the degree flavor as the pivotal criteria for a good CIO, then I obviously will not sway you.

itdaddy

skrpune

geology is cool and nothing but I see you are working on a CS/IT degree
and you will graduate when I do. I graduate Dec 2010 with CS major.

I was only saying what I said...I know how people end up in jobs.
SHe had no clue what programming did back then??? I am sure she learned alot but she was trainee programmer and after 30 years I am sure she earned her position. Just have seen too many executives not have a clue
and not really care what the engineers who thru blood sweat and tears build...Iam going to be a good CIO and respect my engineers! and techs!
they deserve it for working so hard to keep up with technology while I spend the money! you know what I mean....that is all...

That one guy I talked about head of IT had no clue how to set up a vpn in a PIX and man I guess I am a different kind of guy, I like to know how to do stuff so when I talk to others I am not clueless. Before I cam to my current job 5 years ago, I had no clue how to programm routers and switches and ASA and PIX fwls I can do them all now and do some pretty heave MCSE stuff. My boss cant do any of it...and the IT Director over at Travel Guard cant either, nor can the CIO at this other place called Joerns...what I was saying after so much babble, I come the school of if I am going to use the word Cloud I had better know what it means, if I know what the word VPN, I had better have set one or two of them up myself. and if I say the world VLAN, I had better have set one or two of them up........The captain should have done many things in IT and most don't love this stuff that makes me weird I guess..

And I quote. I was not judging anyone even though I came across that way. I just think the CIOs need to walk in the shoes of the engineer and tech for awhile before jumping in charge because of an MBA...that is all...

rock on dudes

itdaddy

great for her......My point was it shocks me about this..
but if you can be a CIO with and English degree and an MBA super..

I have found my calling thanks for all your input. I have learned a lot thru this thread...I don't have to work so hard anymore chasing so much IT knowledge I can see the light now. I will just expect my engineers to bust their butts learning new technology an getting new certs every year fantastic! I am very happy...
BS + MBA = CIO no more chasing certs...no more! YES!

itdaddy

msteinhilber

but try to picture the big scheme of things and see if there might be reasons certain decisions are made.

I am all about proving why this or why that..I work with management
and always ask why and what for...if I am going to spend company money I had better have a good reason to spend 10s of 1,000s of dollars on IT toys! (clouds, hostings, software, etc...)


that is what I am saying all along..doesnt anyone agree that a CIO who is head over IT engineers should know a lot about IT???????
Money, assets and maybe IT?????

I completly understand that and that is what I am saying. But my calling is way less work thank God! I have seen the light...but I can assure you I will listen to my engineers and techs you bet I will and play with the money!

shodown

Mangers don't need the degree's because they are there to manage people. Yes they do need to know the lingo, but most importantly they need to be able to listen to there people and learn and lead. This is why a lot of non IT people are often found leading IT departments. You have a few that step out of the ranks of IT into management who are great at it, but they are few and far inbetween and most usually go into business themselvs as consutants.

blargoe

itdaddy wrote: »

for example would you hire a doctor who wasn’t really a doctor to take care of you baby? when he or she was sick and to make decisions because they were a good day care worker and made good decisions???

Comparing a doctor and CIO is like comparing apples to oranges. The doctor isn't running the hospital. The doctor is in the trenches.

Having some IT background is nice to have in the head of an IT organization, makes things easier for sure, but they don't need "deep system knowledge" to make the level of decisions they typically make. If you present a project to a good CIO and can demonstrate 1) a cost savings; 2) value-add; 3) improvment in efficiency enough to justify incurred costs; 4) risk avoidance; they'll go to bat for you.

If the CIO is dumb as a box of rocks, all bets are off whether they have a degree in IT or not.

shednik

Itdaddy,

All I see is you going on and on about this one person, I haven't even looked at the article yet. I can tell you this though you go and work for any large company and there will be many Managers, VPs, and CXOs out there who do not have a degree related to IT and there will be some that do. Any way the job of management is to manage people, projects, processes, purchasing, and other similar functions. None of my management would I consider extremely technical and once you move into management you start to lose your techiness. They get inundated with propsals, budgets, projects, staff meetings, staffing, team building, administrative work, and the list can go on. So where is there a need for them to be technical, the people who report to him are the ones that need to be technical. I could go on for awhile about this but I've learned once you hit a certain point in your life there are 2 paths to take technical or managerial. At that point you need to focus on one of the paths, and leave behind some of the other. I suggest you read some of the free stuff off this website it will put some things I'm getting at in perspective. The Pragmatic CSO: 12 Steps to Being a Security Master

Also anyone who's been in IT for 30 years in different roles should be entitled to a position like that if they have put in the effort and are willing to be challenged. Like its been said a CIO is more of a business position then anything, my CIO isn't very techie anymore. He's a smart guy and had to work his way up there over nearly 20 years as well.

shednik

itdaddy wrote: »

That one guy I talked about head of IT had no clue how to set up a vpn in a PIX and man I guess I am a different kind of guy, I like to know how to do stuff so when I talk to others I am not clueless. Before I cam to my current job 5 years ago, I had no clue how to programm routers and switches and ASA and PIX fwls I can do them all now and do some pretty heave MCSE stuff. My boss cant do any of it...and the IT Director over at Travel Guard cant either, nor can the CIO at this other place called Joerns...what I was saying after so much babble, I come the school of if I am going to use the word Cloud I had better know what it means, if I know what the word VPN, I had better have set one or two of them up myself. and if I say the world VLAN, I had better have set one or two of them up........The captain should have done many things in IT and most don't love this stuff that makes me weird I guess..

This paragraph tells me you really have missed the point...It's not their job to setup a VPN, or create a VLAN. Their job is to manage the techs that do that kind of stuff, and yes it's good to have some basic knowledge. ie know what a vlan and vpn is on a high level, but no need to understand the different key lengths available for AES encryption like the VPN tech needs to know. He's supposed to sell the services that the VPN guy can bring to the table and manange the projects and operations. Don't get me wrong there are bad managers who don't have a clue but by no means does an IT manager have to have an extensive IT background like you seem to think. How big of a company do you work for itdaddy?