Questions about Growth

Bl8ckr0uter

Greetings All:


I took my CCNA about a month ago and the test froze up in the middle, rendering me unable to complete the exam. I eventually got a free voucher from cisco to take the CCNA (or any) exam and I decided to wait until I get some actually equipment to play with (hopefully by the end of the month) so I can study and then take it again (and PASS!!!). Anyway I wanted some comments on the worth of the following certs, more importantly, how marketable they are to do after the CCNA:

Security+
CCNA:S
CCDA
CCNP
CCDP
CCIP
L+
LPIC-1
MCP/SA/SE
MCITP:SA/EA/EST
RHCX

My overall goals is to become the an excellent network engineer but I am also trying to find a job. I was thinking about going in this order CCNA:S,S+,CCDA,CCNP,CCDP or the same order minus the CCDA/DP route and adding the CCIP. I would like to get into linux engineering as well but I am not seeing very many linux jobs requiring certs such besides RHCX. Seeing how I would like to work for an ISP I think that a combonation of CCNP/CCIP and LPIC and/or RHCX would be best. I am just trying to gauge what I should do. Another issue for me is that the only "networking" jobs seem to be a hybrid of Microsoft/Linux/Cisco/etc types of jobs, while I don't care about a mixed role, my goals really didn't include getting MS certified but now it seems to me that it will be nessary for me just to find a decent job. Sigh....Guess Im back to the drawing board.

GAngel

CCNP
CCIP (if you go this route then juniper would probably be a good next step)
CCDA
CCDP
CCNA:S (CCIP and NP should teach you what's in here already no need unless doing CCSP)

Master not just learn a technology before moving on.

Lizano

It depends on what you like....

My personal recommendation, read a little about voip, and a little about security, if you have your CCNA you already know the basics of R&S.

You´ll hopefully find that your are more interested in one of them than the other two, and go for that. That´s what I did, I ended up liking Security and I chose to go down this path. I´ve already passed my first two CCSP exams and have 3 to go.

Bl8ckr0uter

GAngel wrote: »

CCNP
CCIP (if you go this route then juniper would probably be a good next step)
CCDA
CCDP
CCNA:S (CCIP and NP should teach you what's in here already no need unless doing CCSP)

Master not just learn a technology before moving on.

Thanks for the reply. Interesting choices. The reasons why I wanted to do CCNA:S is A: I do plan on doing CCSP and B Resume filler. I hardly see any jobs asking for CCDA/CCDP. I see a few asking for CCIP. Most say CCNP, CCSP, CCVP, with CCNP being the most popular but CCVP paying the most.

Idk I guess I really am all about a dollar like 4 quarters, but I don't know anything about VOIP.

Do you think CCNA/CCNA:S/CCNP would be a bad short term goal?

Bl8ckr0uter

Lizano wrote: »

It depends on what you like....

My personal recommendation, read a little about voip, and a little about security, if you have your CCNA you already know the basics of R&S.

You´ll hopefully find that your are more interested in one of them than the other two, and go for that. That´s what I did, I ended up liking Security and I chose to go down this path. I´ve already passed my first two CCSP exams and have 3 to go.

Thanks for the reply. Good job. Go For it!

I was thinking about doing CCSP but the lab requirements are $$$ and ultimately I think i need to really know that network before I can secure it. I have seen several people say otherwise but idk.

networker050184

My advice would be get the CCNA get a job and then get certified in what you work with. No point in getting all of those certs if you don't work with the technology.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

My advice would be get the CCNA get a job and then get certified in what you work with. No point in getting all of those certs if you don't work with the technology.

Thanks for the reply.


That was another thing I was thinking about it but the thing is, no body wants to hire someone with an A+, N+ and (from what I have seen) CCNA. I can hardy get by HR and since my degree is in progress (not complete) I basically have 2 entry level certs and my HS diploma. I know that the CCNA is sort of "generic" or "baseline" in concepts so I was thinking the CCNA:S is the same way for security concepts (does this make sense?). Since all routers and switches run some form of the ios (not including catos, is that even around?) I think have a basic understanding for routing and switching (ccna) and security (ccna:s) along with possibly picking up S+ would be helpful.


Here is another question directed at you: Is the CCNP "generic" in that sense as well? What I mean is, the CCNP is more like a higher level ccna, in the sense that it has generic concepts that would carry across the board?
The reason why I ask is that most jobs require the CCNP around my neck of the woods I was thinking about studying for it as soon as I am done with CCNA:S and S+.

networker050184

The CCNP is like the CCNA, but a lot more in depth. There is a broad range of topics covered like VPN, basic BGP, basic MPLS etc along with a strong concentration on routing and switching.

If you are looking at jobs that require a CCNP then these are not entry level jobs (for the most part, some dumb job posting will ask for a CCIE for something entry level). You need to be looking for something that only requires entry level knowledge and skills.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

The CCNP is like the CCNA, but a lot more in depth. There is a broad range of topics covered like VPN, basic BGP, basic MPLS etc along with a strong concentration on routing and switching.

If you are looking at jobs that require a CCNP then these are not entry level jobs (for the most part, some dumb job posting will ask for a CCIE for something entry level). You need to be looking for something that only requires entry level knowledge and skills.

lol I actually saw a posting that said CCNA or CCIE....

But at any rate honestly if someone came up to you and said Hey I just did CCNA and CCNA:S, I am thinking about starting CCNP right after that, what would you say?

Just give the first answer that comes to you, don't think about it too much

networker050184

I'd say go for it, but don't think that with a CCNP and no experience you are going to get a CCNP level job. Nothing wrong with starting your journey towards the NP, you just need the experience to go along with it to get the full benefit.

I just don't see the point of being certified in something you have never done.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

I'd say go for it, but don't think that with a CCNP and no experience you are going to get a CCNP level job. Nothing wrong with starting your journey towards the NP, you just need the experience to go along with it to get the full benefit.

I just don't see the point of being certified in something you have never done.

You've misunderstood the reason I want to do the CCNP. I don't want to do the CCNP so I can be a Senior Network Engineer when I am done. I am doing it so I can make myself a better candiate the CCNA. That way when I get a networking job, I can further validate my experiece (hopefully in 2-3 years) and knowledge at a network engineer (or even a network technician) by showing that I have professional level knowledge.

I understand that certs + no experiece does not equal certs + eperience but in all honestly having a ccnp on my resume, as well as ccnp knowledge would at least make me a better ccna (right?). Alot of people have CCNAs without networking jobs and they use that to break into the field. That is what I want to do with my ccna and (one day) my ccnp will build on that.

Also the last thing you said "certified in things you have never done" what do you mean? As far as CCNA/NP or like VP/DP/IP/Wireless etc?

networker050184

What I meant was, if you never worked with Cisco gear on a profesional level then whats the point of getting the pro cert? Just my opinion though.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

What I meant was, if you never worked with Cisco gear on a profesional level then whats the point of getting the pro cert? Just my opinion though.

Oh I see. Well I am certianly not doing this through packet tracer. I have 2 2950's , and I am buying 2 2610xms, and 1 2610 for FR. I plan to add at least 2 more routers and 1 3550 switch so I know I need to get my equipment exposure to that level.

networker050184

I meant real experience. Like on the job.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

I meant real experience. Like on the job.

Yea I understand. But I have to start somewhere...

networker050184

knwminus wrote: »

Yea I understand. But I have to start somewhere...

Yes, but you don't have to get a professional level certification to start. Thats what the associate level certifications are there for.

mikej412

networker050184 wrote: »

My advice would be get the CCNA get a job and then get certified in what you work with.

100% absolutely agree!

knwminus wrote: »

but in all honestly having a ccnp on my resume, as well as ccnp knowledge would at least make me a better ccna (right?).

Unless you've done the CCNP as part of a University program -- and have some Internships to give you some experience -- there is no advantage to adding a CCNP to a CCNA with no real job experience.

It's more likely that someone who's been around IT for a while will think you dumped your certifications -- and not call you in for CCNA entry level job interviews.

knwminus wrote: »

Also the last thing you said "certified in things you have never done" what do you mean? As far as CCNA/NP or like VP/DP/IP/Wireless etc?

If you start working on a CCNP while job hunting, that's fine. That would help keep your knowledge sharp for job interviews and could set you apart from other new and inexperienced CCNAs.

And once you have that first job -- consider working on the Certifications that will help you keep it or move into other higher positions there.

But at some point in your career you may decide to jump into something different -- like Voice -- that you have no experience with. And then studying for (and getting) the Certification may be your plan to break into that area. But while you may not have any real on the job voice experience, you may have large network admin/operation experience. You may have already demonstrated your knowledge and skills with QoS and your references may rave about your proven troubleshooting skills.... etc.

But if you were to go for a CCVP now and then apply for one of our still open CCVP positions, you'd be just another CCVP with no experience (of any kind) that I'd guess couldn't make a phone call if we gave you a pay phone and a pocket full of change -- and your resume wouldn't even get past the first cut for a simple phone interview. If you search the CCVP forum, you'll find I've used that "pay phone/change thing" a few times there.

knwminus wrote: »

Yea I understand. But I have to start somewhere...

Yeah -- with a job using your CCNA skills.

You can build a 650HP car in your garage, bolt on a supercharger, and add nitrous oxide -- but it still wouldn't make you a race car driver. Most of the time it just makes you a dangerous jerk out on the highway.

It works the same way with resumes and job interviews....

Someone talking about all their "experience" when they don't have a job on their resume that matches that "experience" raises a bunch of "red flags" on an interview -- unless they are applying for a sale or marketing job.

networker050184

Yeah, what Mike said

Bl8ckr0uter

mikej412 wrote: »

100% absolutely agree!


Unless you've done the CCNP as part of a University program -- and have some Internships to give you some experience -- there is no advantage to adding a CCNP to a CCNA with no real job experience.

It's more likely that someone who's been around IT for a while will think you dumped your certifications -- and not call you in for CCNA entry level job interviews.

I guess I will take your word for it (your certs and obvious knowledge speaks for itself. I just see more jobs wanting ccnps and I want a job therefore I want a ccnp. AND yours as well networker

mikej412 wrote: »

If you start working on a CCNP while job hunting, that's fine. That would help keep your knowledge sharp for job interviews and could set you apart from other new and inexperienced CCNAs.



And once you have that first job -- consider working on the Certifications that will help you keep it or move into other higher positions there.

This seems doable and very logical

mikej412 wrote: »

Someone talking about all their "experience" when they don't have a job on their resume that matches that "experience" raises a bunch of "red flags" on an interview -- unless they are applying for a sale or marketing job.

This is the this is my issue. I want experience but to do that I gotta get a job to do that. I want the job but they want the certification. The best way to get the certification is to already have experience. So either I am crazy or all network engineers are grandmasters of alchemy turning water into routers and air into IT experience

But in all seriousness I know I want to this so I will have to figure this out.
I wanted to know what you think about my first post, about the certs and all? Is S+ even worth it? What about MS stuff and LPIC? MS doesn't fit into my goals my LPIC seems not very known

networker050184

Yes there are jobs that require the CCNP, but they are not looking for candidates like yourself with no experience. You have to start at the bottom man. You may get lucky, but you aren't just going to fall into a high level engineering position with no experience. Thats just the way it is. Would you want someone with zero experince running your network? Especially with the major business impact of network down time these days....

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

Yes there are jobs that require the CCNP, but they are not looking for candidates like yourself with no experience. You have to start at the bottom man. You may get lucky, but you aren't just going to fall into a high level engineering position with no experience. Thats just the way it is. Would you want someone with zero experince running your network? Especially with the major business impact of network down time these days....

Ouch...Well I have some experience, in helpdesk, SQL, and AD management along with other things

Yea I hear you and in all seriousness I wouldn't want to be a Full network engineer , yet . I just have to get certs and experience and then hopefully I can get $$$.

networker050184

Sorry, not trying to be rude. Just trying to keep you from being disappointed. Search the forums and you will find quite a few people disappointed not being able to find a job with their certifications and no experience. Nothing wrong with having goals, but just take it one step at a time. You don't need an alphabet soup for an entry level job. Most of the engineers that I've met don't have any certifications.

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

I want experience but to do that I gotta get a job to do that. I want the job but they want the certification. The best way to get the certification is to already have experience.

Get the CCNA Certification. Get a job using your CCNA. Repeat for the CCNP, CCVP, CCSP, etc....

knwminus wrote: »

Ouch...Well I have some experience, in helpdesk, SQL, and AD management along with other things

Okay -- so you just didn't fall off the turnip truck

On the helpdesk did you ever help anyone with their network configuration?

While doing SQL -- did you ever work with any firewall/security guys to make sure your users could access the databases?

And for active directory, did you ever marvel at the hierarchy that allows for greater performance, security, and scalability? If so, then you may want to bring up the beauty of a converged network and the similarity of a good network design to a good AD design..... It could land you a pre-sales networking job somewhere.

While you may not have work networking experience, you may need to "work it a little" to at least show you've been in the same building as a computer network -- but avoid hype.

That SQL & AD experience was in a real work environment, right?

Can you turn that SQL experience into a DB Admin job? That could get you into a data center -- and that could get near the networking gear/guys/group etc....

Is that AD experience (and your current MS knowledge) enough to get you a Server Admin job at a small to medium sized company -- where you may also have to be the first line "network guy?"

And what about your Linux skills? I started as a UNIX Programmer and got into networking (long before any of our customers) so I could shuffle code and test data between development and test UNIX boxes.

mikej412

Oh -- if you want to "fast track" your Cisco/Networking career -- try to get a job with a Cisco Business Partner. You could get lots of experience, access to partner eLearning, and a great reason for getting/needing the CCNP ASAP.

msteinhilber

networker050184 wrote: »

My advice would be get the CCNA get a job and then get certified in what you work with. No point in getting all of those certs if you don't work with the technology.

This is some of the best advice anyone can ever offer with just about any certification. Find any way you can to keep using what you learn or you will lose it. I'm in a jack of all trades type role in my organization since we run a fairly lean shop and I find working with Cisco gear to be one of the things that is easily lost if you're not working with it often. Sure, I can get through any problem that arises but it just takes me a bit longer to remember things now and then.

The other point as others have made, and a general rule that I have for myself is I do not intend to study for any certifications which would not transition into the job I currently hold at least somewhat. That is, the CCNA would be a good choice for me to finally complete one of these days since I work with Cisco equipment on a regular enough basis that the foundation level skills in R&S the certification implies would correspond with my job experience. On the other hand, I wouldn't pursue up to the CCNP or any CC*P level currently because it would be difficult to get a job to start with where I would be able to really jump into CC*P level work without having the experience to back it up and as I waited for my opportunity to move up the ranks and utilize whichever CC*P I obtained, I would have lost a lot of that knowledge and would find myself reviewing and relearning things.

The on the job experiences are pretty big items when it comes to landing a job that you desire. Most interviews I have been on really hit heavily on my past duties, projects, and other on the job experiences I have had. They are looking to learn not just what I know but how I used it, how it benefit the company in the end, etc. I have several projects that I found a need for, researched, and implemented that I include on my resume. Often times the interviewers see those and they are interested in what process I used to come to the determination the project would benefit my organization, what steps I took to research it, how I went about implementing it, and what the end result for the organization was. Unless you can list CCNP level duties/projects that you have taken part in along with a CCNP certification on your resume then it's probably not going to do you much good.

Mike has good advice too, see how you can flex your current skills to get you into an environment where there are opportunities to grow into the position you desire. That is the best thing in my opinion and it is my plan of attack as I work towards my goal - much easier to show your interest and desire to learn to move up into a position doing what you desire for your current employer than it is to make that upward movement from your current employer up into a position with another employer.

dynamik

Looking at your first post, I'd say you're planning on spreading yourself way the hell too thin. The phrase jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none comes to mind. People give me a hard time about this all the time, and they're right. If you want to be a Linux engineer, drop what you're doing and go after the RHCE. If you want to do networking, dive into the Cisco stuff.

Don't tell Mike, but I'm strongly considering going the Cisco route from here on out. My original goal when I was 18 was to go after the CCIE, and I'm pretty pissed that 8 years later, I only have a CCENT. I probably could have had two or three IEs by now Oh well, I've managed to pay the bills up to this point, so I guess it wasn't all for naught.

Anyway, if you get your CCNA, keep pursuing the associate specializations or professional-level certifications. You can always leave something off your resume if you feel it will work against you, given your experience. There's no reason to stop learning though. All everyone is trying to do is keep your expectations realistic; a red carpet isn't going to magically roll out for you just because you've obtained a certification, especially if you don't have the experience to back it up.

msteinhilber

dynamik wrote: »

All everyone is trying to do is keep your expectations realistic; a red carpet isn't going to magically roll out for you just because you've obtained a certification, especially if you don't have the experience to back it up.

I wouldn't be so sure about that....

Certified Floorcovering Installers :: Certification/carpet_certification




I figured this thread could use some humor.

Bl8ckr0uter

mikej412 wrote: »

On the helpdesk did you ever help anyone with their network configuration?

All the time. I actually helped someone identify a DNS issue awhile back and I always (unintentionally) subnet in my head to make sure no issues come up due to the customers ip network design

mikej412 wrote: »

While doing SQL -- did you ever work with any firewall/security guys to make sure your users could access the databases?

God no I wish . We use several internal apps which get me in the Management studio often. I also use to develop in SQL when I was in middle/highschool but that was a different life. It has been about 3 years since I have touch sql heavyly (to the development degree). I am 21 for those who were wondering...

mikej412 wrote: »

And for active directory, did you ever marvel at the hierarchy that allows for greater performance, security, and scalability? If so, then you may want to bring up the beauty of a converged network and the similarity of a good network design to a good AD design..... It could land you a pre-sales networking job somewhere.

Not really. I mean I have added group memberships, create ids, and really basic stuff like that at work. At home I actually set up a domain for testing at home when I was considering going for the MCSE, but I decided I wanted to do SQL. I still have 2 server 2003 R2 machines waiting to be utilitized...

mikej412 wrote: »

While you may not have work networking experience, you may need to "work it a little" to at least show you've been in the same building as a computer network -- but avoid hype.

That SQL & AD experience was in a real work environment, right?

See previous responses

mikej412 wrote: »

Can you turn that SQL experience into a DB Admin job? That could get you into a data center -- and that could get near the networking gear/guys/group etc....

Is that AD experience (and your current MS knowledge) enough to get you a Server Admin job at a small to medium sized company -- where you may also have to be the first line "network guy?"

And what about your Linux skills? I started as a UNIX Programmer and got into networking (long before any of our customers) so I could shuffle code and test data between development and test UNIX boxes.

I wanted to be a DBA at one point and most of the small companies I interviewed with wanted MCSE + CCNP + RHCE Sigh

I dont want to sound like a ***** or lazy or uninteligent or {insert something negative here} but the issue with my job (or at least my issue with my job) is that we get a little bit of everything as far as experience and none of it is complete enough to put on paper and it stand strong...
I hate it!!!

Bl8ckr0uter

Thanks to all that have replied.

My thing is this: I want to get out of my current job and basically I am chasing certs cuz Im chasing dollars. Getting out of my current job is a #1 priority of mine. I want to get into network engineering, if that means ccna or lpic or mcp IDC...

dynamik

Maybe there's a problem with semantics here. I typically relate "network engineering" to Cisco, Juniper, etc. while I relate "systems engineering" to MS, *nix, etc. You need to decide on what you want to do because those are totally different paths.

Oh, and msteinhilber, we'll have none of that. We're clearly out for blood

Bl8ckr0uter

dynamik wrote: »

Maybe there's a problem with semantics here. I typically relate "network engineering" to Cisco, Juniper, etc. while I relate "systems engineering" to MS, *nix, etc. You need to decide on what you want to do because those are totally different paths.

Oh, and msteinhilber, we'll have none of that. We're clearly out for blood

if your refering to it like that then let me break it down: I want to work with routers, switches, concentrators, firewalls, etc...

EDIT: I would also like to work with linux as I am straying away from Windows in my personal computing (or at least I am trying)