Questions about Growth

Bl8ckr0uter

msteinhilber wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure about that....

Certified Floorcovering Installers :: Certification/carpet_certification




I figured this thread could use some humor.

I just clicked this link. Kinda awesome.

msteinhilber

knwminus wrote: »

I dont want to sound like a ***** or lazy or uninteligent or {insert something negative here} but the issue with my job (or at least my issue with my job) is that we get a little bit of everything as far as experience and none of it is complete enough to put on paper and it stand strong...

Being a jack of all trades has it's pro's and con's. I'm in a jack of all trades type scenario right now, it's frustrating for me because it's difficult to really focus on a specialization or two and develop them with a lot of on the job experience. But it's also rewarding because my workday is typically fairly unique, not much of a typical routine to my days which caters well to my personality.

That being said, as I mentioned I also desire to focus on a specialization and move into a different role. I am undecided yet between voice or security related specialization(s), but my road map for either is the same. I have been patiently waiting for the right employment opportunity that will provide upward motion with my career and get me into a larger organization that would have the possibility to grow myself into a role in voice or security. Even if I were to make a more lateral move and not pickup any added responsibilities but transition to a company where I can move up and specialize would suit me well.

Would your current employer have the possibility to move into a role that better suits your interests? If so and you are generally happy with your employer, despite your issues with your position, it might be worthwhile to work hard on demonstrating your interest in other roles through training yourself, certifying, and trying to show interest around other network engineers in your organization.

Bl8ckr0uter

msteinhilber wrote: »

Being a jack of all trades has it's pro's and con's. I'm in a jack of all trades type scenario right now, it's frustrating for me because it's difficult to really focus on a specialization or two and develop them with a lot of on the job experience. But it's also rewarding because my workday is typically fairly unique, not much of a typical routine to my days which caters well to my personality.

That being said, as I mentioned I also desire to focus on a specialization and move into a different role. I am undecided yet between voice or security related specialization(s), but my road map for either is the same. I have been patiently waiting for the right employment opportunity that will provide upward motion with my career and get me into a larger organization that would have the possibility to grow myself into a role in voice or security. Even if I were to make a more lateral move and not pickup any added responsibilities but transition to a company where I can move up and specialize would suit me well.

Would your current employer have the possibility to move into a role that better suits your interests? If so and you are generally happy with your employer, despite your issues with your position, it might be worthwhile to work hard on demonstrating your interest in other roles through training yourself, certifying, and trying to show interest around other network engineers in your organization.

Not really. Like since I work on the helpdesk which is lumped in customer support domain the "real" noc guys/gals don't even know I exist. I know it is possible to move up in the CS domain but I want to get to the noc so idk maybe.

Slowhand

There's been some great responses so far, so I won't write one of my usual novels of advice. I have to be honest, though, when I first saw spotted the title of this thread I was completely and totally expecting a question about a tumor. (Yes, I know. I have problems.)

dynamik

Slowhand wrote: »

I have to be honest, though, when I first saw spotted the title of this thread I was completely and totally expecting a question about a tumor. (Yes, I know. I have problems.)

I was actually leaning towards "male enhancement"

Bl8ckr0uter

dynamik wrote: »

I was actually leaning towards "male enhancement"

No problem in that department, not that there is anything wrong with that.


Well I had a goods night sleeps, I woke up, listen to DragonForce (the words suck, the guitars are awesome) and I have been inspired to make a changes. I want to go into Network Engineering. I would also like to be a linux engineeer. I will not choose. I am going to go like this :

CCNA
CCNA:S
S+
L+
LPIC-1
CCNP
LPIC-2


These have no time limits on them, and the order is subject to change but I would like to get all of this done in the next 2 years or so..

The way I figure is that it may be a few years before I can get into a pure network engineering job and I want to be a little more broad with my skill set. My direct future goals are to get into a job where a I can get exposure to Cisco\Jun\Checkpoint\etc technologies as well as linux in the enterprise. I did a job search for network tech jobs in my are and I am going to follow up on them on monday. Also I have looked at Linux tech/engineer jobs and it seems that the reoccuring theme is red hat and shell scripting so I plan to pick up a few books and start reading. I am going to add an addition major to my degree program at school to include software development so that I can get formal C\C++ instruction, as well as java and Linux.

On Monday I am going to start a thread to help me keep track of all of this and maybe help someone else out in the same situation.

Thannks guys I really appericate the words of truth. This is going to sound really strange but around me I have NO one I can talk to about moving up in IT. No one wants to move and everybody is happy with there jobs. Also alot of people don't even know as much as I do and have admitted it. It is very aggervatting and that is why I am on this, (and other) forums so much. I have no mentors or examples to look at, I only have a dream. So I read your words at look at your signatures and use them as a guide (especially Mikes and Aldurs ) and I say, that is my competition, I have to get to there level. I look at the CCIES here and I think, if they did then I will. Anywho I just wanted to say thanks and good luck because I see your signatures as competition and I don't like to lose...

Forsaken_GA

knwminus wrote: »

You've misunderstood the reason I want to do the CCNP. I don't want to do the CCNP so I can be a Senior Network Engineer when I am done. I am doing it so I can make myself a better candiate the CCNA. That way when I get a networking job, I can further validate my experiece (hopefully in 2-3 years) and knowledge at a network engineer (or even a network technician) by showing that I have professional level knowledge.

Be forewarned - be really sure that network engineering is what you want to do. The responsibilities that come along with being a Senior Network Engineer take alot of getting used to. Mistakes are not easily forgiven. You *must* be detail oriented and very self motivated. When it's 4am and your network is down, you don't get to call anybody to help you. When it's 6pm and prime time traffic usage and your network goes down, not only do you not get to call anybody, but you usually have several frantic people screaming in your ear to FIX IT NOW!

Getting to that level is a long hard trip, and getting an employer to trust you with their network is no easy task. Get an entry level job with a company that does the kind of work you want to do, even if it's not in the networking group. Make friends within that group. Learn as much as you can about the things they *don't* teach you in the books, and always be on the lookout for an opportunity to step in and help out, even if it means coming in on your day off.

darkerosxx

Also, I'd change your cert path and drop the security certs:

CCNA
CCDA
RHCT
RHCE
CCNP
CCDP
CCIE/RHCA

Bl8ckr0uter

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Be forewarned - be really sure that network engineering is what you want to do. The responsibilities that come along with being a Senior Network Engineer take alot of getting used to. Mistakes are not easily forgiven. You *must* be detail oriented and very self motivated. When it's 4am and your network is down, you don't get to call anybody to help you. When it's 6pm and prime time traffic usage and your network goes down, not only do you not get to call anybody, but you usually have several frantic people screaming in your ear to FIX IT NOW!

Getting to that level is a long hard trip, and getting an employer to trust you with their network is no easy task. Get an entry level job with a company that does the kind of work you want to do, even if it's not in the networking group. Make friends within that group. Learn as much as you can about the things they *don't* teach you in the books, and always be on the lookout for an opportunity to step in and help out, even if it means coming in on your day off.

Thanks for the reply. Judging by your reply, it sounds like real like exp. talking..
I do want to go into network engineering but I know I won't be ready to be a SR Net engineer next week, I know it will take some time.

Bl8ckr0uter

darkerosxx wrote: »

Also, I'd change your cert path and drop the security certs:

CCNA
CCDA
RHCT
RHCE
CCNP
CCDP
CCIE/RHCA

Thanks for the reply. If you could, please elaborate on why you would drop the security certs and why you would not included the LPIC certs?

dynamik

The LPI certs aren't very well known. Do a search on a job board.

I think it's always a good idea to have some security experience, at least on a foundation level. I'd personally leave in the Security+ and CCNA:S, but that's just me.

Bl8ckr0uter

dynamik wrote: »

The LPI certs aren't very well known. Do a search on a job board.

I think it's always a good idea to have some security experience, at least on a foundation level. I'd personally leave in the Security+ and CCNA:S, but that's just me.

I did notice that. But then again the only certs that ever seem to be mention is RHXX and Linux+. I thought that LPIC might be a good thing to add to my cv since they are vendor unspecific and cheap (gotta love cheap). I think I am leaving in S+ but CCNA:S is up in the air..

Slowhand

knwminus wrote: »

I did notice that. But then again the only certs that ever seem to be mention is RHXX and Linux+. I thought that LPIC might be a good thing to add to my cv since they are vendor unspecific and cheap (gotta love cheap). I think I am leaving in S+ but CCNA:S is up in the air..

Don't underestimate the amount of time and effort it takes to get these certs. It might look good on paper as you're planning out your path, but focusing on one or two certs in a particular area will take plenty of time, patience, and effort in the end. You were talking about focusing on things that aren't security-specific, so spending a whole lot of time on advanced security certs wouldn't necessarily do much for your career or your learning-path.

What dynamik's suggesting is that you focus on getting your foundations in networking with the CCNA and CCDA, then spend some time on the Linux side of things, and go back to build on your networking knowledge with the CCNP/CCDP & CCIE certs. That will take a LONG time, as well as dedication to just those areas. If you try to throw too much other stuff in there just because it looks good on a resume, you'll end up overloading yourself and/or taking the certs without really having the knowledge and experience to back them up.

Focus on one area at a time, learn it really well, then move on to the next. Don't go running out to get certs for the sake of getting certs. As you learn and grow in your career, you'll have plenty of opportunities to find better work.

Bl8ckr0uter

Slowhand wrote: »

Don't underestimate the amount of time and effort it takes to get these certs. It might look good on paper as you're planning out your path, but focusing on one or two certs in a particular area will take plenty of time, patience, and effort in the end. You were talking about focusing on things that aren't security-specific, so spending a whole lot of time on advanced security certs wouldn't necessarily do much for your career or your learning-path.

What dynamik's suggesting is that you focus on getting your foundations in networking with the CCNA and CCDA, then spend some time on the Linux side of things, and go back to build on your networking knowledge with the CCNP/CCDP & CCIE certs. That will take a LONG time, as well as dedication to just those areas. If you try to throw too much other stuff in there just because it looks good on a resume, you'll end up overloading yourself and/or taking the certs without really having the knowledge and experience to back them up.

Focus on one area at a time, learn it really well, then move on to the next. Don't go running out to get certs for the sake of getting certs. As you learn and grow in your career, you'll have plenty of opportunities to find better work.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with you in the fact that it will take awhile to do. I also agree that doing certs for the purpose of having certs is foolish. I think I will however focus on these to regions. While building up equipment for the CCNA, I am studying for the Linux+ beta (which I just found out im getting a voucher for) then I want to follow up with CCNA + Security+ to end the year.

stlsmoore

networker050184 wrote: »

Yes there are jobs that require the CCNP, but they are not looking for candidates like yourself with no experience. You have to start at the bottom man. You may get lucky, but you aren't just going to fall into a high level engineering position with no experience. Thats just the way it is. Would you want someone with zero experince running your network? Especially with the major business impact of network down time these days....

Yea and trust me you wouldn't want that stress or burden of being responsible for a company with over 5000+ employees internet being down and you not knowing where to begin to get it up and running for them again.

Bl8ckr0uter

I can imagine. I am trying to find a Network Tech(or CCNA) level job as we speak.

Forsaken_GA

knwminus wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. Judging by your reply, it sounds like real like exp. talking..
I do want to go into network engineering but I know I won't be ready to be a SR Net engineer next week, I know it will take some time.

I've been in that mix from all sides, and I have my current job opportunities because someone made some mistakes that resulted in some outages that essentially cost the company an entire months revenue. Needless to say, they resigned shortly thereafter.

All I'm saying is that is make sure it's what you want, and the only way to do that is to try and get into the meat of your learning. You'll find out pretty quickly whether you love or hate it, and if you hate it, better to find out sooner than later. And sit down and talk to some folks who are currently doing the job. You'll find out pretty quick that configuration is the easy part, and the part you spend doing the least. Senior's don't so much as run their networks, as babysit them.

BigTex71

knwminus wrote: »

I can imagine. I am trying to find a Network Tech(or CCNA) level job as we speak.

This is a good starting point for your planned certs. A great job for you would be a network tech job at a place that has many Linux machines to 'play' with to get more OJT. Once you get that job, be sure to focus on your job and not just getting more certs. Once you learn on the job and get years of experience, then you can quickly and easily get the certs due to that experience - rather than having to 'book-learn' the information.

Good luck with your job hunting. Any network tech job would beat a desktop support role, right?

Bl8ckr0uter

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I've been in that mix from all sides, and I have my current job opportunities because someone made some mistakes that resulted in some outages that essentially cost the company an entire months revenue. Needless to say, they resigned shortly thereafter.

All I'm saying is that is make sure it's what you want, and the only way to do that is to try and get into the meat of your learning. You'll find out pretty quickly whether you love or hate it, and if you hate it, better to find out sooner than later. And sit down and talk to some folks who are currently doing the job. You'll find out pretty quick that configuration is the easy part, and the part you spend doing the least. Senior's don't so much as run their networks, as babysit them.

I have talked with a few people all of the true network engineers either love it alot or hate it. Me personally I know I want to be a networklengineer but in that same regard I want to be a linux engineer. I think that I will do all the way to CCXP level work, more than likely CCNP(and)CCDP (and/or)CCIP. If by then I realize that it is something I love, then, I will try to go for the CCIE RS and CCSP.

I have looked at the jobs around my area and it is pretty much redhat or die. After I do the CCNP (hopefully by next year) I think that it will be good for me to go for the RHCT or LPIC lv1 and lv2 because LPIC skills and the LPIC certification is know here. RHCT + RHCE are known almost everywhere so yea. I was considering trying to do the Linux+ beta but considering my current linux skills and what they want, I am thinking it is impossible to do by sep 5th. But at any rate for the next year or 2 it will go like this:

CCNA>S+>CCNA:S or CCDA>CCNP>CCDP>LPIC-1 and/or RHCT>LPIC2 and/or RHCE>

I would like to have a CCNP+ LPIC2 and/or RHCE by eoy 2012

Bl8ckr0uter

BigTex71 wrote: »

This is a good starting point for your planned certs. A great job for you would be a network tech job at a place that has many Linux machines to 'play' with to get more OJT. Once you get that job, be sure to focus on your job and not just getting more certs. Once you learn on the job and get years of experience, then you can quickly and easily get the certs due to that experience - rather than having to 'book-learn' the information.

Agreed.

BigTex71 wrote: »

Good luck with your job hunting. Any network tech job would beat a desktop support role, right?

Very true.

Forsaken_GA

knwminus wrote: »

I have looked at the jobs around my area and it is pretty much redhat or die. After I do the CCNP (hopefully by next year) I think that it will be good for me to go for the RHCT or LPIC lv1 and lv2 because LPIC skills and the LPIC certification is know here.

If you want to become a good Linux engineer, I'll tell you the best way to do that -

Use it. Replace everything you run with Linux, and find Linux based solutions for what you want to do.

I work for a webhosting company (a Debian shop, btw) and came in as a system administrator, before I moved to Networking, so I know a thing or two about Linux, and I think it does a network admin good to have experience with it, since there are so many good *x based tools. When I was hired, I had some small Unix background, but hadn't touched it in 3 years. But I had friends at the company, and they knew they'd be looking to expand the network department in a few years, so they took a chance on me and told me I had 90 days to get my unix skills where they needed them to be.

Apparently I did alright. But I went for deep immersion, to the point where I have no windows machines anymore. I have my own home servers which are Debian, and my laptop which is a Mac, and my sole Windows box gets booted for the rare times when I don't have anything to do and I want to play a non-console game. The rest of the time, it spends life as an Ubuntu workstation. The best way to learn it is to live it and breath it.

Oh, and learn sed and awk. They're just about the most useful programs on the planet.

Forsaken_GA

As far as Linux certs go... RHCE is not bad as far as window dressing, and it will get you past HR filters for companies who like to advertise that their people are certified (yeah Rackspace, I'm looking at you....).

Personally, I consider it in the same vein as the companies who advertise their people are A+ certified.

I'm relatively confident that I could sit down and pass the RHCE with about a weeks study right now, but it's not worth it to me. The cost and their recertification policy is just a bit offputting. I may do it for kicks when I'm done with other things, but right now the cost and benefit just isn't there for me.

The LPIC stuff... if you've got time and money to waste, sure, go ahead, but I don't think they'll be of any real value to your career. Unix people pretty much respect one of two things - experience and ability. If you have the former, you probably have the latter, and if you have the latter, you will most definitely gain the former quickly.

Bl8ckr0uter

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

If you want to become a good Linux engineer, I'll tell you the best way to do that -
Use it. Replace everything you run with Linux, and find Linux based solutions for what you want to do.
Oh, and learn sed and awk. They're just about the most useful programs on the planet.

I actually plan to get all the used machines on my network to fedora (for my computers ) and Ubuntu ( for my wife) by the end of the year. Drivers for my wireless card in my laptop don't exist but I may buy an external one, and my wife is going to buy a netbook with ubuntu installed so no pain there. I have heard about sed and awk, and also I would like to get into heavy shell scripting (bash and korn).


You said that LPIC is a waste. Would you say the same thing about L+?

EDIT: Also you make it sound as if the RHCX are low level (I hope that I have misunderstood), is that what you believe?

Forsaken_GA

knwminus wrote: »

I actually plan to get all the used machines on my network to fedora (for my computers ) and Ubuntu ( for my wife) by the end of the year. Drivers for my wireless card in my laptop don't exist but I may buy an external one, and my wife is going to buy a netbook with ubuntu installed so no pain there. I have heard about sed and awk, and also I would like to get into heavy shell scripting (bash and korn).

Don't just do it from the workstation side of things, put a few servers up and run them as well. There's a book called Building a Server with FreeBSD7 that I'd recommend at least taking a look at. It goes through the methods of installation and setup of a number of common server scripts and packages for use in a production environment. I'd use that as a guide to do the same thing via Linux, and I'd do it with more than distro, at least on RPM derivative, and one Debian derivative.

You said that LPIC is a waste. Would you say the same thing about L+?

EDIT: Also you make it sound as if the RHCX are low level (I hope that I have misunderstood), is that what you believe?

I wouldn't say it's low level. I'm certain that I could pass it with a week's study because I've spent a very large amount of time supporting many Linux servers in a production environment. You don't have a choice but to learn really well and really quick if you're going to survive.

But Linux certs simply aren't respected. There's so much that's possible, that all they can really teach you is the foundations (and honestly, that's true for pretty much any cert). The RHCE has achieved some status, sure, but the guys with 15+ years of doing Unix work are going to laugh at you if you tell them you have a Linux+.

The knowledge is good to have, sure, but I'm of the opinion that the certs themselves aren't worth the cash. Unix is one of the few fields where the barrier to entry is so low. All you need is some commodity hardware and a some media to burn ISO's to, and you can set yourself up with all the software needed to run an enterprise network. It's just a matter of learning how to fit the pieces together.

What I'm trying to say is that the knowledge is important, not the letters after your name, and there's so much more to know and learn to be effective than what the courses will teach you. After all, a customers not going to care if you can install things with yum when what they want is the latest version of ffmpeg and mplayer installed from SVN with very particular configure parameters, with libx264 and libfaac support along with MP4Box.

Go for the certs if you want, just as long as you understand they are not an end, you still have a whole lot more work to do afterwards.

Turgon

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Don't just do it from the workstation side of things, put a few servers up and run them as well. There's a book called Building a Server with FreeBSD7 that I'd recommend at least taking a look at. It goes through the methods of installation and setup of a number of common server scripts and packages for use in a production environment. I'd use that as a guide to do the same thing via Linux, and I'd do it with more than distro, at least on RPM derivative, and one Debian derivative.



I wouldn't say it's low level. I'm certain that I could pass it with a week's study because I've spent a very large amount of time supporting many Linux servers in a production environment. You don't have a choice but to learn really well and really quick if you're going to survive.

But Linux certs simply aren't respected. There's so much that's possible, that all they can really teach you is the foundations (and honestly, that's true for pretty much any cert). The RHCE has achieved some status, sure, but the guys with 15+ years of doing Unix work are going to laugh at you if you tell them you have a Linux+.

The knowledge is good to have, sure, but I'm of the opinion that the certs themselves aren't worth the cash. Unix is one of the few fields where the barrier to entry is so low. All you need is some commodity hardware and a some media to burn ISO's to, and you can set yourself up with all the software needed to run an enterprise network. It's just a matter of learning how to fit the pieces together.

What I'm trying to say is that the knowledge is important, not the letters after your name, and there's so much more to know and learn to be effective than what the courses will teach you. After all, a customers not going to care if you can install things with yum when what they want is the latest version of ffmpeg and mplayer installed from SVN with very particular configure parameters, with libx264 and libfaac support along with MP4Box.

Go for the certs if you want, just as long as you understand they are not an end, you still have a whole lot more work to do afterwards.

Yup. A lot of good advice right there.

Bl8ckr0uter

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Don't just do it from the workstation side of things, put a few servers up and run them as well. There's a book called Building a Server with FreeBSD7 that I'd recommend at least taking a look at. It goes through the methods of installation and setup of a number of common server scripts and packages for use in a production environment. I'd use that as a guide to do the same thing via Linux, and I'd do it with more than distro, at least on RPM derivative, and one Debian derivative.



I wouldn't say it's low level. I'm certain that I could pass it with a week's study because I've spent a very large amount of time supporting many Linux servers in a production environment. You don't have a choice but to learn really well and really quick if you're going to survive.

But Linux certs simply aren't respected. There's so much that's possible, that all they can really teach you is the foundations (and honestly, that's true for pretty much any cert). The RHCE has achieved some status, sure, but the guys with 15+ years of doing Unix work are going to laugh at you if you tell them you have a Linux+.

The knowledge is good to have, sure, but I'm of the opinion that the certs themselves aren't worth the cash. Unix is one of the few fields where the barrier to entry is so low. All you need is some commodity hardware and a some media to burn ISO's to, and you can set yourself up with all the software needed to run an enterprise network. It's just a matter of learning how to fit the pieces together.

What I'm trying to say is that the knowledge is important, not the letters after your name, and there's so much more to know and learn to be effective than what the courses will teach you. After all, a customers not going to care if you can install things with yum when what they want is the latest version of ffmpeg and mplayer installed from SVN with very particular configure parameters, with libx264 and libfaac support along with MP4Box.

Go for the certs if you want, just as long as you understand they are not an end, you still have a whole lot more work to do afterwards.

I believe you. I think that you are in fact probably right. However in my market people are stupid. If I tell someone that I know linux and I don't have some kind of cert in linux, they are literally going to think I am lying. I am almost 22 years old (a babe) and I have found that people in this market just don't believe you until you have a cert or a degree. I was doing mysql/asp development in middle and high school and I could even get people to let me voulenteer for extremely low level development jobs because they didn't believe i knew what I was talking about (and at the time I was pretty decent).

My point is this, I need 3 things in order to "validate my knowledge": A degree (in progress), certifications, and experience. I am having issues getting the 3rd piece because most employers want the first 2. So I understand that a linux cert isn't going to mean anything to someone who has been around the block for a few years but for me trying to break into this field and get off the helpdesk, I think it will matter. 5 years from now when I can get deeper into engineering I won't worry about Linux certs at all because you are right, most jobs say they want linux skills and they dont care about certs and I think that is the point where you are in life. If you think about like this:

You:

1: Experience 2: Certs 3: Degree

Me:

1: Certs 2: Degree 3: Experience

I don't know if this is completely accurate but it is probably close. For me I almost have to get the certs just to get a fighting chance in this field since I haven't been working in the field since I was like 10. Maybe LPIC isn't worth the time or the money, to you, because If you were a Unix pro for a number of years I doubt that a piece of paper that says you have basic helpdesk level knowledge of llinux will help you at all (maybe if you did level 3 but idk). But for me, this is probably going to be important for at least the next few years until I can get some professional experience with Linux. The same goes for the CCNA:S, and CCNP. They probably wouldn't help anyone with loads of experience but for someone without they could make all the difference. I can't just charm the HR folk with my nice smile and personality, I need something to help leverage my experience and that is why I think I need LPIC or Linux+ or RHCT. I could be wrong though .

darkerosxx

knwminus wrote: »

So I understand that a linux cert isn't going to mean anything to someone who has been around the block for a few years but for me trying to break into this field and get off the helpdesk, I think it will matter. 5 years from now when I can get deeper into engineering I won't worry about Linux certs at all because you are right, most jobs say they want linux skills and they dont care about certs and I think that is the point where you are in life. If you think about like this:

They probably wouldn't help anyone with loads of experience but for someone without they could make all the difference. I can't just charm the HR folk with my nice smile and personality, I need something to help leverage my experience and that is why I think I need LPIC or Linux+ or RHCT. I could be wrong though .

Take what he said with a strong YMMV (your mileage may vary) cautionary signal. What I've seen is the complete opposite and I have to say I question the judgement of someone that compares the RHCE to the A+. Don't take that the wrong way... I'm not calling him stupid or saying he's wrong. I believe he's just been in an environment where this is true for maybe too long, because I don't see that mentality representative of the nation. I hear the opposite from far too many people that travel the nation on a regular basis for that one opinion to make me believe it's even close to the truth. That's all I'm saying.

You will encounter linux folks with ANY range of years of experience who don't care about certs cause they're TEH HARDC0REZ and you will encounter people with anywhere from 0-XX years of linux experience who highly respect the RHCT and RHCE. Usually it gets respect just because it shows a level of competency where you can do the "regular things a business needs" without having to look at a book or study ahead of time. This kind of respect you won't get from HR, but it seems like you know that already. They're just a gateway to the people behind the scenes who may or may not care what certs you have.

My advice is to assume that HR cares about the certs you have and that HR is your gateway to the inner sanctum. The inner sanctum folks you can assume may or may not care, so your backup is your ability to show/explain what you can do. The RHCT/E provides both of these.

Bl8ckr0uter

darkerosxx wrote: »

Take what he said with a strong YMMV (your mileage may vary) cautionary signal. What I've seen is the complete opposite and I have to say I question the judgement of someone that compares the RHCE to the A+. Don't take that the wrong way... I'm not calling him stupid or saying he's wrong. I believe he's just been in an environment where this is true for maybe too long, because I don't see that mentality representative of the nation. I hear the opposite from far too many people that travel the nation on a regular basis for that one opinion to make me believe it's even close to the truth. That's all I'm saying.

You will encounter linux folks with ANY range of years of experience who don't care about certs cause they're TEH HARDC0REZ and you will encounter people with anywhere from 0-XX years of linux experience who highly respect the RHCT and RHCE. Usually it gets respect just because it shows a level of competency where you can do the "regular things a business needs" without having to look at a book or study ahead of time. This kind of respect you won't get from HR, but it seems like you know that already. They're just a gateway to the people behind the scenes who may or may not care what certs you have.

My advice is to assume that HR cares about the certs you have and that HR is your gateway to the inner sanctum. The inner sanctum folks you can assume may or may not care, so your backup is your ability to show/explain what you can do. The RHCT/E provides both of these.

Oh im taking it in stride. I don't think he meant to compare A+ with RHCE in terms of worth but i understood what he meant. All in all I want want all 3: Certs, Experience, and a degree (actually several) and something that none of those things will give me: Knowledge/Wisdom beyond my years.
And maybe the LPIC wont be worth much but it will be helpful to have. I want to do at least up to level 2 and then do RHCT/RHCE. My short-long term goals are to have RHCSS RCHE CCSP,CCNP, CCDP, LPIC 2, to have high level balance in certs.

Forsaken_GA

darkerosxx wrote: »

Take what he said with a strong YMMV (your mileage may vary) cautionary signal. What I've seen is the complete opposite and I have to say I question the judgement of someone that compares the RHCE to the A+. Don't take that the wrong way... I'm not calling him stupid or saying he's wrong.

Oh, I'm certainly not comparing the RHCE and A+ in terms of what you need to know, the RHCE is definitely not entry level. What I'm saying is that it's relative value isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I'll use Dice and Monster as an example -

Right now, on Dice, if I search for jobs with RHCE in the state of Georgia (and keep in mind that the Atlanta area and it's suburbs are no small employer of IT personnel in the South Eastern United States), there are zero hits. Absolutely none. If I expand it out to Red Hat Certified, there are several hits, but not with those three words together. It keys in on Red Hat and the certified key word comes up for other things. If I use Monster, there is one job for all of Georgia that hits on RHCE, and it only says that RHCE is a plus.

This is not a new trend, this is the way it's been in this region since the inception of the RHCE. I'll stipulate that it may differ from market to market.

And you guys are a little off in assuming that I'm comparion the RHCE and the A+ on a technical level. RackSpace makes a big deal out of the fact that they employ alot of RHCE's. They're using the RHCE branding as a marketing tool. This is much the same thing that CompUSA did for their hardware support department, making a big deal out of their techs being A+ certified. They're just trying to impress potential customers. That doesn't really say anything to me about the value of the cert, though I guess it gives the folks who do certify a target company or two to work for.

I believe he's just been in an environment where this is true for maybe too long, because I don't see that mentality representative of the nation. I hear the opposite from far too many people that travel the nation on a regular basis for that one opinion to make me believe it's even close to the truth. That's all I'm saying.

Well I'm certainly not going to argue right or wrong with you based on perception and opinion, that's a battle nobody can win.

When it comes down to it, all I'm really saying is that pinning hopes and dreams on obtaining a certification is a great way to set yourself up for disappointment. Far too many people go at it the wrong way. How many times have you (and this isn't directed at the person I'm responding to, but is more rhetorical to the crowd) passed up the opportunity to study something more in depth because you didn't think it would be on the test?

We're not in school anymore, and you're not just studying for a test. You're studying for your career. I think I'm distinctly in the minority in that point of view, though.

(Yes, WGU students, I'm well aware you're an exception to the rule! )

My advice is to assume that HR cares about the certs you have and that HR is your gateway to the inner sanctum. The inner sanctum folks you can assume may or may not care, so your backup is your ability to show/explain what you can do. The RHCT/E provides both of these.

This is pretty good advice, and is the real reason I bother with certification. The difference is, I study and practice to gain the knowledge, being able to pass the certification exams is incidental and something I do just to fill out the resume, and I know that the certification will *never* teach me enough to truly master the aspects in which it's supposed to be testing for.

Bl8ckr0uter

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

And you guys are a little off in assuming that I'm comparion the RHCE and the A+ on a technical level. RackSpace makes a big deal out of the fact that they employ alot of RHCE's. They're using the RHCE branding as a marketing tool. This is much the same thing that CompUSA did for their hardware support department, making a big deal out of their techs being A+ certified. They're just trying to impress potential customers. That doesn't really say anything to me about the value of the cert, though I guess it gives the folks who do certify a target company or two to work for.

I understood what you meant by this.

Ultimately I do understand what you were saying and I know that Certifications are does not = knowledge but I think it will help me out some. That and getting some experience and knowledge.