Is school worth it?

JoJoCal19

undomiel wrote: »

Not having a degree doesn't make you a second class citizen and don't let the elitists tell you otherwise. Not having a degree does not make you ignorant. It is possible to go most places in a career without a degree. Just because the job ad may state that a degree is required doesn't mean that it is. If you can do the work and get to show the manager that you can do the work, you'll have just as good a chance if not better than the ones standing in line with a degree. Some recommended reading I have for you is Ask The Headhunter® and a good oldie Amazon.com: What Color Is Your Parachute? 2009: A Practical Manual for Job-Hunters and Career-Changers (9781580089319): Richard N. Bolles: Books

I guess I'll say it. Damn, I really wish I hadn't gone to college.

It was wasted time and a whole lot of wasted money. We're still working on getting out from that mountain of debt. The benefit that I personally received out of it is learning how to draw and paint properly. Which was only a fraction of the classes that I paid for. Of which none of it I use in my current job and career. In my IT career the skills that I use have all been learned through self study.

No one here is saying that not having a degree makes you a second class citizen or ignorant. It is also not possible to get to most places without a degree. Not only do specialized jobs require a degree, but to get beyond entry level positions often require a degree. And yes if you are already working for a company yes you can show what you can do and maybe move up, but when posting for new jobs, if a job ad is listing a Bachelors as a requirement, it has been said by lots of recruiters and others that if you dont have that Bachelors on your resume, your app/resume goes in the trash.

I do think that its not wise to spend alot of money on certain degrees, but then again if thats what you want to do and its worth it to you, then do what you want. Theres a reason why every single day people sign up for culinary degrees that cost more than thier salary is going to be.

And guess what, you may not use your degree in the IT field in which you work but if you had NO degree you might not have gotten a chance in IT period. Alot of employers list just specifically that you need to have completed a Bachelors level of education.

tpatt100

undomiel wrote: »

Just because the job ad may state that a degree is required doesn't mean that it is. If you can do the work and get to show the manager that you can do the work, you'll have just as good a chance if not better than the ones standing in line with a degree. Some recommended reading I have for you is Ask The Headhunter® and a good oldie Amazon.com: What Color Is Your Parachute? 2009: A Practical Manual for Job-Hunters and Career-Changers (9781580089319): Richard N. Bolles: Books

I guess I'll say it. Damn, I really wish I hadn't gone to college.

The reality is when you are standing in line with the people with degrees you are probably not going to get a chance to show the manager who is hiring what you are capable of doing.

Plenty of people pump up their resume, put stuff like:

1. Working on CCIE
2. Working on CISSP
3. Working on bachelors degree

etc, etc

Then you are up against somebody who has:

1. CCIE completed 1/1/2XXX
2. CISSP earned 1/1/2XXX
3. Graduated University of where ever 1/1/2XXX

The person who actually HAS the items listed vs the person who has this wish list of stuff they might never actually complete or even do is going to have the upper hand.

This is where I state again the degree only opens the door its up to you what you do when you get through the door.

U of M was hiring an upper level security position that was paying lower six figures a few months ago, pretty sure they got a ton of applications. Do you think HR is going to take the time to sift through each resume going "hmmm no degree but he might be a good fit due to his experience matching with all the other applicants who have degrees" nope they are going to kick it to the curb because they need to weed out people.

There are plenty of people with experience now a days.

GAngel

blargoe wrote: »

I completely agree that it's not worth piling up a mountain of debt.

However, I don't think the majority of people will argue that having a degree can clear a few hurdles. You can get by without one and do fine; but you might get ruled out for a position early on if you don't have it, and you're going to have hard time moving into leadership without one.

Personally, I think everyone should always take the path of 2 year degree (which, often is the posted minimum requirement for a position), then transfer to a university and complete a bachelors if you want to have the 4 year degree. MUCH MUCH cheaper. I also don't get thinking paying top $$$$$ for the most elite universities just for the "prestige" is so worth it. Maybe if you are going to specialize later on, get a master's from there. Not for your entry into IT though.

It's not the prestige it's the recruiters and contacts whose circle you've joined. I don't owe a cent and my unis education cost near 200k all said and done. Most of that is due to the people i've met who've helped me get into companies i wanted. My next degree will be in the 200k debt range and i'm planning to pay it off within 3 years. In no way are the vast majority of the people I know smarter than the average joe they're just better connected. I don't plan on being a sucker working for 45 years while being abused by companies nor do i want to amass a fortune that i can't spend. In and out of the system as fast as i can.

Everything is relative. You can live a great life without making a ton of money just like some rich people's lives are horrible regardless of how much they earn.

eMeS

undomiel wrote: »

I guess I'll say it. Damn, I really wish I hadn't gone to college.

Personally, I think with the prevalence of online degrees these days and the non-existent control over quality, there will be many many more people in the coming years saying exactly this.

I'm not saying this is what you did (because I don't know), and not to ignite the whole online vs. traditional debate, but my feeling is that the schools organized purely on a for-profit basis have watered things down to the point that the name of the school/reputation of the program will matter much more than the degree.

You've made excellent points. Not having a degree does not make you a 2nd class citizen. It is really my belief that not everyone needs a degree. I know many people who've done very well for themselves without degrees.

I disagree with the sentiment about debt. Debt should always be undertaken after a cost-benefit analysis. I personally don't care if I incur 1 million in debt if doing so enables me to earn 10 million. Education works the same way; don't incur the debt just because, rather it should be because incurring the debt ultimately leads to a payoff much greater than the original debt.

MS

eMeS

blargoe wrote: »

I also don't get thinking paying top $$$$$ for the most elite universities just for the "prestige" is so worth it.

It's a little more than just pure prestige. Attending a top-tier school gives access to a network of people and opportunities that are typically only available to those who've attended top-tier universities.

Sadly, the elite do tend to take care of the elite.

MS

Bl8ckr0uter

Samurai004 wrote: »

Well being from Dayton also, that was the exact same path I was planning on taking.

BUT...

Now after reading:



I am not so sure. Since I already have my B.S. in Criminal Justice from Urbana University, I might just get my Associates in Network Engineering (only 8 classes needed) from Sinclair CC for two reasons.

1. To get some hopefully good experience with the four 7 credit hour courses in Cisco Routing required with a focus on CCNA prep.

2. And, to get an Advanced Network Engineering certificate with a focus in prepping for the CCNP.

I believe I will be ready to start out at an entry level position with the following resume stats:

B.S. Criminal Justice
A.A.S Network Eng.
Adv. Network Eng. certificate
CCNA
CCNP
A+
Net+
Sec+
Linux+
MCSA

plus 9 years full time police officer with experience as a crime scene technician, crisis intervention team and multiple commendations/awards.

Or do you guys/gals in the IT field think I should get another bachelor's degree...Like knwminus I am kinda confused on this one also????

Sam:

2 things: The Advanced Network Engineer program got canned. Not enough people were taking the classes and they cut the program (I talked with the CIS chair). And 2 The network Engineer program BLOWS. It is very hard to get into the cisco classes and they only offer the classes late at night.

If you were going to go for anything at Sinclair go for Software development, more classes transfer over to Wright State And Franklin. There is also a "pre-transfer" degree for students going to Sinclair. You could check that out.

Bl8ckr0uter

So let me give you an example of what I mean about degrees being worth it. I was reading job descriptions for jobs internally. Here is one that struck my interest (this is where I want to move when I get out of the NOC) for a Unix Engineer:

Job Purpose Maintain Unix systems as part of the CBTS team. Be Responsible for working with the Operations team, and Sales team to install and manage hosting solutions. Responsible for performing all common Unix System Admin tasks for the server environment.
Attendance is required in this position.
Essential Functions

• 50% - Design and implementation of business solutions utilizing Unix/Linux systems.
• 25% - Design, write, and maintain systems documentation and network diagrams.
• 15% - Using network analysis, management and performance monitoring tools to diagnose problems and determine source.
• 10% - Server capacity analysis, planning and management of all Unix/Linux systems and networks.

Education Four years of College resulting in a Bachelor's Degree or equivalent Experience / Background 1 to 2 years Accreditation / Certification / Licenses

• Veritas Certifications a plus
• Linux Certifications a plus
• Solaris Certifications a plus
• Cisco Certifications a plus

Previous Job Experience

• Experience with the Solaris Operating System, the Linux Operating System, and other Unix variants.
• Strong grounding in TCP/IP protocols and networking technologies such as routers and switches.
• Strong grounding in Internet security (Trust Relationships, VPN and overall network security issues).
• Experience using network analysis, management and performance monitoring tools to diagnose problems and determine source.
• Experience with Unix and general network and server capacity analysis, planning and management.
• NT/2000 experience a large plus.
• Experience in the design and implementation of solutions utilizing Unix/Linux systems.
• Experience in the management and integration of Unix/Linux systems.
• Design of Unix/Linux networks.
• Previous duties as Unix/Linux system administrator a plus.
• Minimum of 1-2 years experience operating and managing Unix/Linux systems.
• NT or Windows 2000 experience a plus
• Project Management experience a huge plus

It says degree or equivalent which to me seems like it would me certs and experience.

elover_jm

so your still trying to justify the need for a degree even though most pple on here telling you to go for a degree.

i'll say it again, if i don't see the need for it i wouldn't do it. I think it will all come down to where you really want to be say the next 10-15 years depending on ur age (want to be a techie or management?).

Also bear in mind there are lots of bsc requirements for desktop support jobs.

and i would ask why stay behind when alot of your colleagues are moving ahead?

networker050184

I'll go ahead and sum up how the majority of these discussions on degree vs no degree go.

People with a degree usually say they are absolutely necessary and you won't be able to get a high level job without one.

People without degrees usually say they are not needed unless you want to be management or something similar.

Again that is the gist I usually get form these threads and I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.

IMHO a degree is just one more thing to add to your resume. If you have nothing to put on your resume then yes, a degree is important to help you stand out. It definitely looks better than a HS diploma. Once you get quality experience and certifications on your resume that degree becomes a less and less important part of your resume.

Every job I have had "required" a four year degree. Not having one has never stopped me from getting an interview or any of the jobs. I'm sure there may be some places out there that screen out people without a degree on their resume. I wouldn't want to work for a place that would choose a lesser qualified candidate just because they have a degree anyway.

tpatt100

knwminus wrote: »

So let me give you an example of what I mean about degrees being worth it. I was reading job descriptions for jobs internally. Here is one that struck my interest (this is where I want to move when I get out of the NOC) for a Unix Engineer:

Job Purpose Maintain Unix systems as part of the CBTS team. Be Responsible for working with the Operations team, and Sales team to install and manage hosting solutions. Responsible for performing all common Unix System Admin tasks for the server environment.
Attendance is required in this position.

Essential Functions

• 50% - Design and implementation of business solutions utilizing Unix/Linux systems.
• 25% - Design, write, and maintain systems documentation and network diagrams.
• 15% - Using network analysis, management and performance monitoring tools to diagnose problems and determine source.
• 10% - Server capacity analysis, planning and management of all Unix/Linux systems and networks.

Education Four years of College resulting in a Bachelor's Degree or equivalent Experience / Background 1 to 2 years Accreditation / Certification / Licenses

• Veritas Certifications a plus
• Linux Certifications a plus
• Solaris Certifications a plus
• Cisco Certifications a plus

Previous Job Experience

• Experience with the Solaris Operating System, the Linux Operating System, and other Unix variants.
• Strong grounding in TCP/IP protocols and networking technologies such as routers and switches.
• Strong grounding in Internet security (Trust Relationships, VPN and overall network security issues).
• Experience using network analysis, management and performance monitoring tools to diagnose problems and determine source.
• Experience with Unix and general network and server capacity analysis, planning and management.
• NT/2000 experience a large plus.
• Experience in the design and implementation of solutions utilizing Unix/Linux systems.
• Experience in the management and integration of Unix/Linux systems.
• Design of Unix/Linux networks.
• Previous duties as Unix/Linux system administrator a plus.
• Minimum of 1-2 years experience operating and managing Unix/Linux systems.
• NT or Windows 2000 experience a plus
• Project Management experience a huge plus

It says degree or equivalent which to me seems like it would me certs and experience.

Yes and what do you do when the others who are applying have certs, experience AND a degree.

Just because you have what is considered "good enough" does not always mean you are the only one applying for the job.

tpatt100

networker050184 wrote: »

Every job I have had "required" a four year degree. Not having one has never stopped me from getting an interview or any of the jobs. I'm sure there may be some places out there that screen out people without a degree on their resume. I wouldn't want to work for a place that would choose a lesser qualified candidate just because they have a degree anyway.

Having a degree does not mean you are lesser qualified. Half the people I used to work with had four year degrees and more experience than I did.

When I worked for the city they showed me three boxes of resumes they got for the position I was hired for:

1. Experience
2. Certs and Experience
3. Degree, Certs, and Experience

Since this was a job with stability and a pension they got hundreds of applications. They took all of the boxes of resumes and just literally pushed the first two stacks aside.

Bl8ckr0uter

elover_jm wrote: »

so your still trying to justify the need for a degree even though most pple on here telling you to go for a degree.

Like I said in my OP I am not trying to justify anything. I value my education and I have already made me decision. So the Go to school vs not going debate is nothing more than a mute point. I am going to school. period. My question at this point is now something slightly different: Will it be worth it? That is something that I am not sure of.

elover_jm wrote: »

i'll say it again, if i don't see the need for it i wouldn't do it. I think it will all come down to where you really want to be say the next 10-15 years depending on ur age (want to be a techie or management?).

Now that is another thing entirely. I want to own my own business, specializing in *nix, security (physical, network, etc) and FOSS. I would like to work on public and private networks. But I know I won't be able to do that tomorrow so I need to work in the field for sometime to build my knowledge, my skills, and focus my craft.
The question becomes what is it worth to me and my potential customers. Like if a customer chooses another business over mine because there because the person running has a PhD then I know that not having a higher level degree could be a problem. But if the customers only care about price, proven results, and ability then it obviously would not be a problem.

elover_jm wrote: »

and i would ask why stay behind when alot of your colleagues are moving ahead?

Most of my colleagues don't have any degrees.

jjbrog

I question this myself sometimes. I am currently going for a AA in network administration. I am only doing it for the fact I'll be able to put degree in my title. IN addition to the certs I plan on getting. Everything I'll learn in school, (core classes) have a cert I can get that will go along with it. I could learn it all on my own, and be just as good as I would be without the degree. But would get it done faster cause I wouldn't have to waist time on generals. so sometimes, depending on what you're doing, you might learn what you want to learn slower, cause you're going to school simply cause you have to put forth effort on generals as well as core classes. I would think a sensible HR person would want you to have at least the certs, cause (for example)anyone can wiggle through 4 Cisco classes and pass, but that doesn't mean they can take the CCNA exam and pass. The degree is just a bonus. I think the certs vs degree, degree would only win cause it shows you can work even harder on something and deal with learning stuff you don't like(math for example). However from what I've heard, if you have a degree its not going to get far unless you have the certs to go along with it. Which makes sense to me. Of course this is from a IT perspective... Cause I never heard of just going in somewhere, passing a exam through self study, and there ya go you're a nurse assit/engineer/etc etc

veritas_libertas

Unfortunately these conversations almost always turn into flames.

In the end a traditional education is about being well rounded and having something to get your resume in front of your competitions for a job.

Let us hope this thread dies a pitiful death

Maybe we just need a sticky on debate and then maybe it won't come up so often.

undomiel

Just to make it clear, I do not have a degree. I'm a college drop-out! If/when I do decide to complete my degree it will be because I want to work as a teacher, which is somewhere where a degree is genuinely (arguably) required. I'm currently working as a senior engineer for a consulting firm in the smb sector. So I definitely have made it into the IT field without a degree. The only one at this company with a degree is the owner, which he got in an entirely different field when he was interested in architecture. The degree listing on the job ad is most likely of more importance to the HR department than to the work itself. This is why it is more important to talk to the manager than HR. Make sure you know why you're getting a degree, rather than following trends.

networker050184

tpatt100 wrote: »

Having a degree does not mean you are lesser qualified.

Where did I say having a degree would make you less qualified? I said a place that would pass up on a more qualified person just because they don't have a degree is not the kind of place I would want to work for.

From what you have said you work for the exact kind of place I would NEVER work for. All of the people I work with have degrees, nothing against that, but to disqualify a candidate just by the fact that they do not have a degree is plain ignorant.

Firemarshalbill.com

Time to jump in on this conversation. I do have multiple degrees - BS, MS, MBA. All paid for by AT&T. So I do not have the debt problem talked about - THANK GOD

To put it simply a degree is another bullet in the gun, the others being certs and experience. The more the better. In todays online job market if the position says BS, MS or whatever is required if you do not have it the rest is mute, the resume often gets tossed. Once you get in to meet the recruiter/hiring people then its time to man up and show what you are made of. The key is to get in

I am in the process of hiring several engineers and a BS is a minimum. If the person does not have it they never make it past HR for me to see.

Now for my humble opinion a degree does not make you da' man (or lady). I know alot of people that do not have a degree and do an outstanding job, often better than the person with the degree. But the degree opens the door. I do feel experience and certifications are very important though

Samurai004

There is also a "pre-transfer" degree for students going to Sinclair. You could check that out.

Thanks for the heads up about Sinclair's Adv. Net. Eng. program dying. What exactly is a "pre-transfer" degree? Is that like getting your general education classes out of the way, if so, I did that already at Sinclair prior to transferring to Urbana for my B.S...I just didn't get a degree for it. I have a ton of credits at Sinclair...so maybe I should just go directly to Wright State U. for C.S. (after my wife completes her nursing schooling there )

The night classes or weekend classes are actually awesome for me since I work midnight shift and have to keep my weekday days clear for court if needed.

The Cisco classes on Sat at Sinclair from 9am - 4pm would be perfect, but again, I might just go straight to WSU.

So what is it specifically about Sinclair's Network Engineering program that is so bad?

Thanks ahead of time 'minus

Bl8ckr0uter

Samurai004 wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up about Sinclair's Adv. Net. Eng. program dying. What exactly is a "pre-transfer" degree? Is that like getting your general education classes out of the way, if so, I did that already at Sinclair prior to transferring to Urbana for my B.S...I just didn't get a degree for it. I have a ton of credits at Sinclair...so maybe I should just go directly to Wright State U. for C.S. (after my wife completes her nursing schooling there )

Pre-Transfer degree: Basically it sets you up for a 2 and 2 program (2 years at Sinclair and 2 years at WSU). The thing is, you have to take a few high level math classes that they don't offer very often.

EDIT: WSU has a great (and well respected) CS program. The Engineering school is respected, (I have heard good things about the med stuff there as well) but the University does have its bad spots.

Samurai004 wrote: »

So what is it specifically about Sinclair's Network Engineering program that is so bad?

idk like basically when I think a network engineer I think of the total package and it is like you just can't do that at Sinclair. granted it is a A.A.S degree but still. It is like they just said here take a math class and some english classes and get you ccna and you have a degree. Kinda lame.

Plus they keep dropping the linux classes. There is a certificate I was enrolled for call Network Security for Engineers which was basically S+ and a 3 linux classes (1 on basic linux, 1 on advanced linux, and 1 on Unix/Linux security) and 3 Windows classes. All of a sudden they dropped all of the linux classes execpt the basic linux class. They have literally about 25 windows classes, 4 cisco classes and 1 linux class. It is very windows heavy and it makes me mad. but that is another story.

Samurai004

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Do you have any idea how flexible WSU is with their C.S. program (online hopefully)? The big thing is my midnight shift job and court during the day. I can do weekends and night classes only.

And friend request me on Facebook...I sent you a pm with my particulars.

Hyper-Me

eMeS wrote: »

It's a little more than just pure prestige. Attending a top-tier school gives access to a network of people and opportunities that are typically only available to those who've attended top-tier universities.

Sadly, the elite do tend to take care of the elite.

MS

We like to call this the "good ol' boy" system.

Hyper-Me

undomiel wrote: »

One, that you can get it without having to take out any loans for it. Debt isn't worth it. .

If i was making enough money to drop 10k a semester (or more) on college, why the hell would I want to go to college?


Im going to attend WGU.

Why?

Fast, concise, cheap, and will show that I have a B.S. for those employers who snub those who dont have one.

a B.S. is just that, BS.

Samurai004

I am very sorry for this post, but I am an English N*z*. I am taking medication and seeing a therapist for this condition, but to no avail. I have seen it twice in this thread. It's "moot", not "mute". Again sorry 'minus as you have been so helpful since I have been on this board. If we ever should meet you can punch me in the nose for this.

Hyper-Me

Samurai004 wrote: »

I am very sorry for this post, but I am an English N*z*. I am taking medication and seeing a therapist for this condition, but to no avail. I have seen it twice in this thread. It's "moot", not "mute". Again sorry 'minus as you have been so helpful since I have been on this board. If we ever should meet you can punch me in the nose for this.

You take your good grammar skills for granite

Samurai004

I know! That Samurai004 guy is a D***! LOL

Bl8ckr0uter

Samurai004 wrote: »

Ok, thanks for the clarification. Do you have any idea how flexible WSU is with their C.S. program (online hopefully)? The big thing is my midnight shift job and court during the day. I can do weekends and night classes only.

I think it varies. I know a guy doing the CS program at WSU and I don't think you can do it all online.

Samurai004 wrote: »

And friend request me on Facebook...I sent you a pm with my particulars.

I think I already did. Check for the last name Minus.

Bl8ckr0uter

Samurai004 wrote: »

I am very sorry for this post, but I am an English N*z*. I am taking medication and seeing a therapist for this condition, but to no avail. I have seen it twice in this thread. It's "moot", not "mute". Again sorry 'minus as you have been so helpful since I have been on this board. If we ever should meet you can punch me in the nose for this.

Lol. I always make that mistake in writing but not in speech. Besides I think a mute point sounds pretty cool, almost like a super power.

*Meanwhile at the justice league hq*
Batman: Who is the new guy?
Superman: That is captain knwminus.
Batman: Oh. What can he do?
Superman: He makes mute points.
Batman: ****. Can we trust him?
Superman: I think the real question is, can we trust ourselves...
Wonder Woman: I am so going to do him.


lol.

Samurai004

He can read lips at 1000 wpm...he's HANDIMAN!

dynamik

I don't want to fan the flames or anything, but I heard people with degrees smell prettier than those that don't...

elover_jm

they smell like MONEY