Is this guy serious?

Shiz Stain

I had a talk with someone I know and turns out hes a computer programmer working for some company. He asked me what I'm doing right now and I said im heading into networking and taking classes at CC. He said thats nice but where do I plan to go from there?

I told him after i get my AAS degree im going to take advantage of the Cisco Courses offered and get my CCNA. He said why get an AAS degree+ cert it doesnt mean your going to get a job go get yourself a BA. I told him I know this but I can still try to work as an intern and get experience working with Cisco Equipment.

He goes on telling me that Cisco is pointless and that he has people in his "IT" department that come and fix computer related problems like network printers not working or hard drives not working. I told him that's nice but Cisco really doesn't relate to that he said yeah but your only going to make 20-25k/yr, so its best to get your BA.

So now I tell him that the BA is nice to have but I want to go into NETWORKING not PROGRAMMING and all the schools here in my area (St.Louis) offer BA's in Computer Science which all is focusing on programming. Then we get more into the conversation and he starts telling me without a BA degree your never going to make more then 40k/yr and you will never climb up the ranks and get better positions.

After all that he starts telling me to look for out of state schools and that certs aren't worth it at all because company's don't care if you got a degree from a CC all they look for is a BA degree and certs don't even matter. Man im thinking to myself, this guy is tripping I know damn well there are more people with a BA degree then a CCNP/CCIE.

Finally the conversation ends and hes like just finish your CC and go to a University you will get a good job and make good pay because company's don't care about your CC degree and those certs you got. I was going to tell him that the CC offers a internship and that in the IT field experience is VERY important but he just kept telling me to look for schools in/out of state that offer BA's because I will never make enough money with certs+AAS degree.


So what do you think about this? I think its complete bull, I understand a BA is always nice to have but it depends on the situation. If I finish school with my AAS degree + cert and start working at a company and keep getting experience and push myself to learn more and learn then I personally believe I can make over 40k/yr.

I told him the only reason I wanted to do networking was because I love the job role and it interests me by keeping me on my feet all the time, and above all I told him I don't care about the pay as long as its enough to provide for myself and I LOVE what I do. I told him I rather make that 35k/yr and Love my job then make 80k/yr and hate it.

So whats everyone's input on this?

Bl8ckr0uter

He has a point. I have never seen an AS or an AAS on a requirement for a job. That said I think that they look at those things. IF you have person A with exp, certs, an AS degree and person B with a BS degree then I think person A will get the nod. I think programming is different than networking in this regard. A few programmers I know said they wouldn't be able to get a job with out a MS.

I think that you should keep doing what you are doing. Don't let this dude deter you at all.

stlsmoore

That's bull man, I'm 23 and I'm from St. Louis myself with an AAS and I just completed my CCNA not to long ago about to work on my CCNP. I got kind of lucky but guess what, a WEEK after I obtained my CCNA I got a entry level network technician job working in down town STL now making 35k. The VP of network operations at our NOC here has his CCIE and I"m betting he's making 6 figures. If you view some of my previous posts you'll see that I was actually making about 60k a year at one point but I hated the type of IT stuff I was doing (opening support tickets basically). I did a lot of soul searching and thought about what I liked the most in IT and just went for it.

I'm basically starting over again but I'm A LOT happier then I ever was at my last job. I will say that it's hard to break into the telecom network arena and I consider my self very lucky. But it's def. possible especially if you set yourself apart with certifications, I'm sure that's the only thing that pushed me over the edge into obtaining this job. Once you get your CCNA shut me a PM, I know this company has been growing rapidly and there may be an open position by time you obtain your cert so I can put in a word for ya! I will say that I would get a BA if at all possible from any ACCREDITED school. I made the same mistake by trying to rush through school, I would love to have that Bachelors title but I know I'll be fine with or without it

pinkydapimp

Just because you are getting a BS in Computer Science doesn't mean you have to be a programmer. A Computer Science program first and foremost gives you a strong understanding of how computers work which can be very helpful. In addition, you are taught how to think analytically which will help you in any IT job. In my opinion, if you are a good problem solver, you can figure out any issue, regardless of how much experience you have with it. I think many of the non programing positions that require a Comp Sci degree are really looking for candidates that they know are good learners and can solve problems.

Having said that, you are on the right track. Get your AAS. You can definitely be successful with that and the right certs and motivation. However, having a BS on Comp Sci can only help.

Also, i believe at many schools if you have an AAS, you can transfer a number of credits towards a BS which means maybe you only have 2 years to go. you should look into that. Good luck!!

dynamik

I think the guy has a valid point or two amidst all the BS, but I'd say his perspective is rather skewed overall. It sounds like he's speaking from personal experience and what worked for him. I'd take it with a grain of salt (that's what she said). If networking is your interest, definitely go for the CCNA (and beyond). If you have the opportunity and means, I definitely encourage you to pursue a four-year degree. It will help set you apart and provide you with more options in the future. FWIW, I don't have my degree yet, and know many others that don't, and we make well above $40k.

Shiz Stain

knwminus

Yeah, the guy is a friend of the family and I respect the fact that he is telling me to continue my education and I know a BA is always nice to have but it depends really.I guess he was just telling me continue your education while your still young.
Yeah thanks man I will continue on my path and not let him distract me or anyone else.

stlsmoore

WOW just WOW, I knew I wasn't retarded and good thing I listened to most people who actually have gone through this whole experience. Yeah people with a CCIE are beasts and I also damn well sure they are making those nice 6 figure salaries. The only place in St.Louis that I know that comes close to offering a BA is Webster and I don't have the cash for that. I worked as an IT intern for the SLPS for Gateway High School during my senior year and it was great learned ALOT and finally saw what a person with a Cisco cert does and from that day on I was hooked, the sys admin I spent most of the day with was interested and she even offered me a job but I declined because I have to work for my family. As for the job offer thanks man I will keep that n mind 2 years from now .

Good Luck on that CCNP ^^ maybe one day we will have a race for the CCIE?
Haha, then we will show them!!!


pinkydapimp

yeah I understand what Computer Science is but all the University courses I see (in my area STL) just focus on programming, and why learn one thing if you want to do another?
The credits from the AAS I will receive can transfer to a number of different schools in the area.



Thanks for the whole input + support everyone, I knew this guy was BS'ing to an extent but not all the way. The BA is a nice thing to do have but this whole conversation about Degree Vs Cert can last for years its like having an argument about Abortion there is NO winning side.

pinkydapimp

Shiz Stain wrote: »

knwminus


pinkydapimp

yeah I understand what Computer Science is but all the University courses I see (in my area STL) just focus on programming, and why learn one thing if you want to do another?
The credits from the AAS I will receive can transfer to a number of different schools in the area.

i understand where you are coming from. For me, when i got my BS in Computer Science. i knew that i did not want to program for a living, but it was the only degree that really had to do with computers. And 60% of the courses are straight programming. But there are a number of great courses that also give you a great foundation of computer knowledge and the programming helps shape your mind to think as you should be thinking in IT. so i wouldn't look at it as a waste.

dynamik

Shiz Stain wrote: »

The BA is a nice thing to do have but this whole conversation about Degree Vs Cert can last for years its like having an argument about Abortion there is NO winning side.

I think that argument is fundamentally flawed when you make it an either-or type of scenario. I think everyone agrees that certs, degrees, experience, who you know, etc. are all beneficial and complimentary, and the more things you have going for you, the more likely you'll be successful.

Shiz Stain

pinkydapimp

I'm 1000% sure programming shapes the mind, had a few classes on it but not field. But I feel you man if that BA in CS is going to move you up the ladder then by all means go for it.



dynamik

I agree man, I have been here long enough to understand the whole degree/cert/experience questions. To what it all boils down to in my eyes is this.


Get degree/certs
Get degree/certs in area of interest, if offered higher education take advantage of it
Your ability to change in the IT is very important keep updating skills

Look for job/get job
Look for a job by networking with people/ ask around people/friends/teachers/family.
Use online job sites/ local paper

Get experience by doing an internship if possible and take advantage of it
also get the experience on the job if finally hired

More experience = more marketable

tanix

Shiz Stain wrote: »

pinkydapimp

yeah I understand what Computer Science is but all the University courses I see (in my area STL) just focus on programming, and why learn one thing if you want to do another?
The credits from the AAS I will receive can transfer to a number of different schools in the area.

CS is the core, it is the base to all that you will know with computers. For instance, sub-netting? It is easy cake if you have taken Assembly language (a core component for a CS degree). Programing is core for most things, while you may not think it is "relevant" it is far more relevant than you know.

If I personally had a choice to pick between two people for a job concerning networking (or any computer related aspect) and my choices were a person with a CS and a person with a networking degree, I would pick the CS. Why? Because while they may not be on key with everything networking, they have the core to get up to speed quickly in anything. They have the foundation, the tools to quickly adapt to anything computer related.

So while the "programming" might be "out of your focus" there is still a ton you can learn "from" that topic which will make transition easy to any other concept computer related.

dynamik

Having a background in programming is often useful too. There are a lot of system/network administration tasks that can be automated via scripts or custom programs.

tanix

pinkydapimp wrote: »

i understand where you are coming from. For me, when i got my BS in Computer Science. i knew that i did not want to program for a living, but it was the only degree that really had to do with computers. And 60% of the courses are straight programming. But there are a number of great courses that also give you a great foundation of computer knowledge and the programming helps shape your mind to think as you should be thinking in IT. so i wouldn't look at it as a waste.

I am very close to an AS in CS, with mainly physics and a few GE holding me back. I didn't get the chance to finish and I hope to some day, but I may end up having to resort to a quick BS in something IT online. I would absolutely love to finish the CS and if I have to, I will finish it be it MS or PHD, I will get it in there somewhere, some day.

tanix

dynamik wrote: »

Having a background in programming is often useful too. There are a lot of system/network administration tasks that can be automated via scripts or custom programs.

Having a programming background, as I was going through the MCSE courses my mind was constantly twirling with various methods to automate tasks. *chuckle*

stlsmoore

"Shiz Stain" honestly if I was able to do it over I would of just went to one of the St. Louis community colleges to get the general ed and then head to UMSL for 2 more years and be done with a BS and save a TON of cash at the same time. Instead I tried to do what I thought was the easy route and go to ITT Tech. Now I'm about 40k in debt for 2 years worth of school, one of my friends got his Bachelors from there and now he's 80k in the whole. I'm hoping to have my loan paid off in another year and a half though lol.

Hyper-Me

I have an AAS and I make more than 40k a year, so I guess dudes argument is very flawed. Im probably only half his age too.

networker050184

Of course the higher the qualification the better no matter if its certs or degrees. Other than that his opinions are VERY far off from the truth in networking. I make a lot more than $40k and I don't have an BA or any degree for that matter.

I really couldn't give you advice in making a good programming career, because I've never had one. I don't see what makes this guy think he can give advice on something he obviously has no clue about.

qcomer

From my income from my job I make $54k a year (with a $2k raise every year until I top out) and 100% health benefits (paid for), CalPERS retirement, etc. I am a Network Technician for a school district.

All together I make $63,000 a year including another income source.

No certifications, no college. At 21 years old.

I think college and certs are always an added bonus, but nothing beats experience and true hands on "know how."

abhustler

I am a data engineer. I work with predominately Cisco equipment, some Adtran. I only have an Associates in Networking and the Certifications listed to the left. I worked my way up from help desk, network technician, noc analyst, to data engineer. This all took less than 4 years. I started at 52000 a year as data engineer. The requirements for my position are an Associates and a CCNA. Our senior Engineer only has a CCNA.

wd40

I have a diploma in telecommunications and have a very good job in IT Support, I had it 5 years ago when the market was good.

Now, I have been trying to get out and find another job, every time I apply for a job I get the same answer "You do not have a BSc, get lost!", it does not matter that I have experience or some certs, my CV will be blocked by HR.

So, now I am back to school to get the BSc, most courses are programming "in Java, which I hate", but it has to be done.

My point is, yes you can get a great job without a BSc, but it will haunt you until you get it, so it is better if you start when you are young.

ULWiz

If i had a choice i would definately pick a BA. With that being said i still dont have mine but will be finish next year and currently attain jobs over 40k a year. I do have a few certs and over 7 years experience in the field.

dynamik

Hyper-Me wrote: »

I have an AAS and I make more than 40k a year, so I guess dudes argument is very flawed. Im probably only half his age too.

ULWiz wrote: »

If i had a choice i would definately pick a BA. With that being said i still dont have mine but will be finish next year and currently attain jobs over 40k a year. I do have a few certs and over 7 years experience in the field.

Yes. I think it's important to note that an AAS doesn't automatically bring in $40k+. Other things, such as certs, experience, etc. often come into play.

ColbyG

As others have said, the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm a network engineer at a big company. I have experience and certs, no degree. For networking jobs, experience and certs are important, a degree isn't a requirement with most companies, though it will obviously increase your value. Also, getting into management without a Bachelors or better is pretty tough.

L0gicB0mb508

If I had a the choice, I'd probably go with your plan. I would get the AAS and try to find an internship. While working part time or whatever I would go after the 4 year. I think the combination of doing time in the trenches while you are going to school will put you leaps and bounds above your competition. The bachelors is nice, but with no experience to back it up I don't know if you are going to rush out and find a job being a network engineer.

JoJoCal19

While everyone here has valid points, the problem is they ALREADY HAVE the jobs and are in that position.

I too have just an A.S in Networking and will have 5 years of IT experience in Feb 2010 and I just got my Network+ this year and I make in the mid $50s but guess what, I got in when the IT market was good!!! So yea I can agree with the previous posters that yes you "could" get a good IT job and salary with an AS or AAS. But Im also finding I cant find a new job, I dont have my Bachelors is what Im told. Im stuck and cant move out.

Guess what the problem is, TODAY good luck with that. The IT job market is nowhere near what it used to be. Not only are there very few if almost no entry level jobs and few mid level jobs, but salaries have gone down, requirements have gone up, WAY up in alot of instances. Almost every single job opportunity Im finding is asking first and foremost, BACHELORS. Doesnt even matter what your Bachelors is in for some of them.

Now of course there are the opportunities and it depends on where you live but I know that I have searched every city in FL and thats what Im finding. Now someone in LA or NY might find it a little better but thats the exception, not the norm.

But why dont you prove it to yourself? Do job searches in cities near you. Look at the requirements. See whats out there. Look on Monster, Careerbuilder, Dice. Also just look at some company websites. Im sure youll get the picture real quick that a Bachelors will be necessary.

Now I think you should get your AAS and your certs and start looking, but only if you can continue your Bachelors while working. If you dont think you can continue your education while working then I would just continue on with your Bachelors. Maybe do some interning and gain experience too.

Shiz Stain

Thanks for the feedback everyone.
I do agree that in today's situation a BA is a VERY good thing to have and I might look further into it but can't find a school that focuses on networking yet in the St.Louis area, only luck I had so far was Webster.

Webster University: BS in Computer Science with an emphasis in Information Technology

As for me stlmoore I am down at STLCC taking these classes

Required Courses :: St. Louis Community College


Once I get that done I going to enroll in there Cisco Academy and get my CCNA. I have of friend of mine whose enrolled in ITT Tech and is trying to pay off those bigass loans also, but he tells me its worth it for him in the end ( hes trying to get his BA in programming).

**Also if you ever plan to study for your CCNP STLCC offers classes in that aswell
just looking out for you bro

ColbyG

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

Almost every single job opportunity Im finding is asking first and foremost, BACHELORS. Doesnt even matter what your Bachelors is in for some of them.

I have searched every city in FL and thats what Im finding.

I live in Florida and I constantly search the job boards for networking positions in Tampa and Orlando. What you're saying isn't true, at least not for networking positions. I don't have a degree and it hasn't been an issue with any position in the past six months. The fact that I don't have a degree hasn't come up with any of positions I've applied for, nor has it been mentioned in any of the interviews.

JoJoCal19

ColbyNA wrote: »

I live in Florida and I constantly search the job boards for networking positions in Tampa and Orlando. What you're saying isn't true, at least not for networking positions. I don't have a degree and it hasn't been an issue with any position in the past six months. The fact that I don't have a degree hasn't come up with any of positions I've applied for, nor has it been mentioned in any of the interviews.

Well then send me the postings. I have been searching every couple of days on Monster, Careerbuilder and occasionally Dice. When searching ALL jobs under the IT category on Careerbuilder I come across few IT jobs. I found a Network Engineer posting but guess what, it wanted a Bachelors and other experience. Ive been doing the searches every other day and havent come across any IT jobs that are mid level that are not asking for a Bachelors in the requirements so yea, what Im saying is in fact true.

qcomer

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

Well then send me the postings. I have been searching every couple of days on Monster, Careerbuilder and occasionally Dice. When searching ALL jobs under the IT category on Careerbuilder I come across few IT jobs. I found a Network Engineer posting but guess what, it wanted a Bachelors and other experience. Ive been doing the searches every other day and havent come across any IT jobs that are mid level that are not asking for a Bachelors in the requirements so yea, what Im saying is in fact true.

Just because it says Bachelors doesnt mean they wont look at you. Infact, my current job needed a bachelors and I have NO college degrees and no certs.

Most places rather have the experience than the college.

You can ALWAYS apply - worst thing they can say is no which is better than not knowing at all.

pinkydapimp

qcomer wrote: »

Just because it says Bachelors doesnt mean they wont look at you. Infact, my current job needed a bachelors and I have NO college degrees and no certs.

Most places rather have the experience than the college.

You can ALWAYS apply - worst thing they can say is no which is better than not knowing at all.

most places would rather have experience and a college degree. I think the bottom line is, you can be successful with or without a College Degree. However, it will be easier with one.

qcomer

pinkydapimp wrote: »

most places would rather have experience and a college degree. I think the bottom line is, you can be successful with or without a College Degree. However, it will be easier with one.

Right - in a case where they can get both.

I was talking about when comparing the two - they would rather have experience than college w/ no experience.

Anyways - to the point - you do not NEED a degree to get a job, or a good paying job at that.

ColbyG

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

Well then send me the postings. I have been searching every couple of days on Monster, Careerbuilder and occasionally Dice. When searching ALL jobs under the IT category on Careerbuilder I come across few IT jobs. I found a Network Engineer posting but guess what, it wanted a Bachelors and other experience. Ive been doing the searches every other day and havent come across any IT jobs that are mid level that are not asking for a Bachelors in the requirements so yea, what Im saying is in fact true.

Does it say "preferred" or "required"? Apparently you aren't looking hard enough, or in the right places. Quick search on Indeed:

Cisco Jobs in Tampa, FL | Indeed.com

Most of those jobs don't say that a degree is required, some say "preferred or equivalent experience", which means it's not mandatory.

Again, you're wrong. You're talking about reading some job posts. I'm talking about actual positions I've been asked to interview for. I have yet to be told that a company is not interested because I don't have a degree.