It's worth it, people...

jimbarino

I just wanted to give a little encouragement to all of those slogging through their CCNP studies:

I have been actively looking for new job (I'm currently employed, but I'm looking for a move up) for about the past 4 months. I sent out resumes, got a few bites, but mostly a vast silence. Then last month, I finally passed the ONT and was able to put those magic letters "CCNP" on my resume. Since then, the floodgates have opened - I had a great phone interview yesterday, and two in-person interviews next week, and I'm waiting on a offer from another place (where the guy basically told me at the interview to expect one). Nothing definite yet, but these are places with interesting work and good pay that I'm pretty sure would have put me at the bottom of the pile two months ago.

So, when it seems like it's not worth spending hour upon hour studying to get a cert that most of your friends and family have never heard of, don't give up! It will put you on another level in your career.

networker050184

Glad things are going good for you. Good luck with the new job!

burbankmarc

Great pick-me-up! I think that's the motivation I needed to study this weekend over drinking.

billscott92787

Definitely good to know. Especially since there hasn't been any bites after putting "CCNA" on my resume. But a friend on mine, which is a CCIE, encouraged me to immediately start studying for the "CCNP" and that once I got it I would see a huge difference in the offers that would come in. This definitely shows that this is true. I am in a good area. About 1 1/2 hour outside of DC and not far from main cities in Virginia as well. I passed my BCMSN on two months of studying and I'm planning to take my BSCI end of January or beginning of February. I can't wait to put those magic letters beside my name and see the results This at least tells me that my waking up at 5:30 AM every Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday when I am off work, and studying for about 3-5 hours per day is going to pay off in the long run....

ColbyG

Yea, the NP opened a lot of doors for me as well. Not sure I'd have gotten this job without it.

burbankmarc

billscott, sounds like you're around my area. I live in Hampton VA. Also our timelines are about the same only we switched the BSCI and BCMSN.

Good luck.

stlsmoore

Very good to hear, I notice most of the jobs I want to apply for are looking for that CCNP cert

billscott92787

burbankmarc wrote: »

billscott, sounds like you're around my area. I live in Hampton VA. Also our timelines are about the same only we switched the BSCI and BCMSN.

Good luck.

Good luck to you as well. I am from Martinsburg, WV. About 4 hours from you.

eduromer

I agree with you, i sent my resume before i got my CCNP, they called me and the Engineer who interviewed me said, oh ok, i like your resume but you are not a CCNP right, i said i just passed my last exam last week, so he said oooh then you are hired, so yeah i would have my current job if it wasnt for the CCNP, now im going for my CCSP Cheers and happy holidays

jimbarino wrote: »

I just wanted to give a little encouragement to all of those slogging through their CCNP studies:

I have been actively looking for new job (I'm currently employed, but I'm looking for a move up) for about the past 4 months. I sent out resumes, got a few bites, but mostly a vast silence. Then last month, I finally passed the ONT and was able to put those magic letters "CCNP" on my resume. Since then, the floodgates have opened - I had a great phone interview yesterday, and two in-person interviews next week, and I'm waiting on a offer from another place (where the guy basically told me at the interview to expect one). Nothing definite yet, but these are places with interesting work and good pay that I'm pretty sure would have put me at the bottom of the pile two months ago.

So, when it seems like it's not worth spending hour upon hour studying to get a cert that most of your friends and family have never heard of, don't give up! It will put you on another level in your career.

yuriz43

I have to respectively disagree with you here.

Most HR departments and technical recruiters don't even know what a CCNP is! Sure there may be instances where they specifically ask about it, and this is usually because somebody from the engineering/IT department gave HR some criteria to go by. But ultimately HR and Recruiters will go by the universal formula ( see below )..

Employers generally care about two things, and in this order:

1. On the job experience. They don't care if you know the required technologies like the back of your hand. They want REAL work experience at XXX company, for XXX amount of years. PERIOD.


2. Degree. Doesn't mater what kind of degree. It could be a degree in History or Psychology or anything else as long as its from an accredited University in the United States.( Degrees in other countries are ok if it isent some place like India or Russia.... But this is a whole other topic and I don't want to go there!) I hate to say it, but most fortune 500 companies will hire the network engineer with a Bachelors degree in Latin American Studies over the guy with a CCNP and a bunch of other certs ( but with no degree ). This is coming from a guy with certs but with no degree, and I've seen it happen!


I don't want to discourage anybody, certifications are great in my opinion. But think of them as a tool & and goal setting device to learn the technology. Becoming a successful engineer is about mastering the concepts and technology, not obtaining certifications. I firmly believe if you really like networking and put your heart/mind/time/money into it, you will be a great engineer regardless. The most knowledgeable and senior network engineers I personally know have no certifications at all.

M4verick

yuriz43 wrote: »

I have to respectively disagree with you here.

Most HR departments and technical recruiters don't even know what a CCNP is! Sure there may be instances where they specifically ask about it, and this is usually because somebody from the engineering/IT department gave HR some criteria to go by. But ultimately HR and Recruiters will go by the universal formula ( see below )..

Employers generally care about two things, and in this order:

1. On the job experience. They don't care if you know the required technologies like the back of your hand. They want REAL work experience at XXX company, for XXX amount of years. PERIOD.


2. Degree. Doesn't mater what kind of degree. It could be a degree in History or Psychology or anything else as long as its from an accredited University in the United States.( Degrees in other countries are ok if it isent some place like India or Russia.... But this is a whole other topic and I don't want to go there!) I hate to say it, but most fortune 500 companies will hire the network engineer with a Bachelors degree in Latin American Studies over the guy with a CCNP and a bunch of other certs ( but with no degree ). This is coming from a guy with certs but with no degree, and I've seen it happen!


I don't want to discourage anybody, certifications are great in my opinion. But think of them as a tool & and goal setting device to learn the technology. Becoming a successful engineer is about mastering the concepts and technology, not obtaining certifications. I firmly believe if you really like networking and put your heart/mind/time/money into it, you will be a great engineer regardless. The most knowledgeable and senior network engineers I personally know have no certifications at all.

Well, I'd still have to say that they would still be great even by your standards for a younger generation (such as myself) for proving competancy with concepts & technologies so that you can get your foot in the door where you would otherwise not even be considered.

ColbyG

yuriz43 wrote: »

1. On the job experience. They don't care if you know the required technologies like the back of your hand. They want REAL work experience at XXX company, for XXX amount of years. PERIOD.

2. Degree. Doesn't mater what kind of degree. It could be a degree in History or Psychology or anything else as long as its from an accredited University in the United States.( Degrees in other countries are ok if it isent some place like India or Russia.... But this is a whole other topic and I don't want to go there!) I hate to say it, but most fortune 500 companies will hire the network engineer with a Bachelors degree in Latin American Studies over the guy with a CCNP and a bunch of other certs ( but with no degree ). This is coming from a guy with certs but with no degree, and I've seen it happen!

I don't want to discourage anybody, certifications are great in my opinion. But think of them as a tool & and goal setting device to learn the technology. Becoming a successful engineer is about mastering the concepts and technology, not obtaining certifications. I firmly believe if you really like networking and put your heart/mind/time/money into it, you will be a great engineer regardless. The most knowledgeable and senior network engineers I personally know have no certifications at all.

I must be the exception to the rule as I work for a Fortune 50 company, and I have no degree. And, without having the CCNP I don't think I would have even been looked at.

So either I'm the exception, or you're just wrong. As people have said on here time and time again, there is no exact formula for what makes a candidate value. Experience is generally the most important, and, IMO, certs are next, then the degree. I see more job postings requesting experience and certs than I do posts requiring a degree.

malcybood

yuriz43 wrote: »

I have to respectively disagree with you here.

Most HR departments and technical recruiters don't even know what a CCNP is! Sure there may be instances where they specifically ask about it, and this is usually because somebody from the engineering/IT department gave HR some criteria to go by. But ultimately HR and Recruiters will go by the universal formula ( see below )..

Employers generally care about two things, and in this order:

1. On the job experience. They don't care if you know the required technologies like the back of your hand. They want REAL work experience at XXX company, for XXX amount of years. PERIOD.


2. Degree. Doesn't mater what kind of degree. It could be a degree in History or Psychology or anything else as long as its from an accredited University in the United States.( Degrees in other countries are ok if it isent some place like India or Russia.... But this is a whole other topic and I don't want to go there!) I hate to say it, but most fortune 500 companies will hire the network engineer with a Bachelors degree in Latin American Studies over the guy with a CCNP and a bunch of other certs ( but with no degree ). This is coming from a guy with certs but with no degree, and I've seen it happen!


I don't want to discourage anybody, certifications are great in my opinion. But think of them as a tool & and goal setting device to learn the technology. Becoming a successful engineer is about mastering the concepts and technology, not obtaining certifications. I firmly believe if you really like networking and put your heart/mind/time/money into it, you will be a great engineer regardless. The most knowledgeable and senior network engineers I personally know have no certifications at all.

I have to disagree with some of what you've said.

Experience is the most important thing, but come on.....

If a Cisco partner has the choice of 2 candidates that were perfect for the job from hands on experience side of things, one has a degree in Zoology (you did say any degree) and 5 years networking experience, but no Cisco certs and the other candidate has no degree, 5 years experience with networking and a CCNP, who is he going to choose?.........

CCNP guy every time, unless it was a graduate job they'd probably be level pegging.

Some of the most knowledgable network engineers I know have no certifications, but some of the network engineers who have "years of experience" are just that, people who have seen the same situation umpteen times and know how to fix it.....ask them to think out the box and they don't have a clue.

It is also worth mentioning that the majority of the most experienced guys I know (global outsourcing company), who are in management or senior technical roles i.e. consultancy / TDA types keep their certs current from checkpoint CCSA through to CCNA right up to CCIE. They must be doing this for a reason - to keep themselves marketable!

Personally when hiring a candidate, I'd be more interested in experience + drive + ambition. Forget Certs and degrees, if they're good they'll be able to acquire the certs they need, however saying that I would probably look for a CCNA at least if I was hiring a Network Engineer and would also expect them to show some kind of personal development. Certification progression is a good way to monitor development IMO.

Also remember guys who have been around a bit know more people who know them in the industry so certs become less important I guess. For younger generation, to get your foot in the door, you need to get certified and have the other attributes required, simple as that.

malcybood

jimbarino wrote: »

I just wanted to give a little encouragement to all of those slogging through their CCNP studies:

I have been actively looking for new job (I'm currently employed, but I'm looking for a move up) for about the past 4 months. I sent out resumes, got a few bites, but mostly a vast silence. Then last month, I finally passed the ONT and was able to put those magic letters "CCNP" on my resume. Since then, the floodgates have opened - I had a great phone interview yesterday, and two in-person interviews next week, and I'm waiting on a offer from another place (where the guy basically told me at the interview to expect one). Nothing definite yet, but these are places with interesting work and good pay that I'm pretty sure would have put me at the bottom of the pile two months ago.

So, when it seems like it's not worth spending hour upon hour studying to get a cert that most of your friends and family have never heard of, don't give up! It will put you on another level in your career.

Just wanted to say glad to see there's light beginning to show at the end of the tunnel for you. Good luck and hope you land that dream job!

billscott92787

malcybood wrote: »

I have to disagree with some of what you've said.

Experience is the most important thing, but come on.....

If a Cisco partner has the choice of 2 candidates that were perfect for the job from hands on experience side of things, one has a degree in Zoology (you did say any degree) and 5 years networking experience, but no Cisco certs and the other candidate has no degree, 5 years experience with networking and a CCNP, who is he going to choose?.........

CCNP guy every time, unless it was a graduate job they'd probably be level pegging.

Some of the most knowledgable network engineers I know have no certifications, but some of the network engineers who have "years of experience" are just that, people who have seen the same situation umpteen times and know how to fix it.....ask them to think out the box and they don't have a clue.

It is also worth mentioning that the majority of the most experienced guys I know (global outsourcing company), who are in management or senior technical roles i.e. consultancy / TDA types keep their certs current from checkpoint CCSA through to CCNA right up to CCIE. They must be doing this for a reason - to keep themselves marketable!

Personally when hiring a candidate, I'd be more interested in experience + drive + ambition. Forget Certs and degrees, if they're good they'll be able to acquire the certs they need, however saying that I would probably look for a CCNA at least if I was hiring a Network Engineer and would also expect them to show some kind of personal development. Certification progression is a good way to monitor development IMO.

Also remember guys who have been around a bit know more people who know them in the industry so certs become less important I guess. For younger generation, to get your foot in the door, you need to get certified and have the other attributes required, simple as that.

I have to disagree. The certificates are what sets your resume apart from those individuals that do not have certifications. It proves that you have the knowledge you say you do because if you are knowledgeable in the area, then it shouldn't be that hard to obtain the certifications. The certifications keep your resume from being glanced and hitting file #13. In addition to that, experience DEFINITELY is important. Maybe back in the day you could have been lucky enough to land a networking job without certs. But, in today's economy you have to do anything that you can to set yourself apart from the next candidate that recruiter or person is going to see. In addition to that, sometimes the degree helps to substitute for a lack of experience. Even with that sometimes it means higher pay as well. It just depends on the company and the area. Honestly to be well rounded, I would say having a degree, CCNP, and experience, is going to set you apart from anyone else. Even for someone that has a few more years on you experience, with no degree and no certifications. But, then again it depends on the interviewer as well.

SysAdmin4066

I have a BS and an MS and was passed over for a job interview once because I didnt have the CISSP. I've had an employer tell me he doesnt ever hire IT pros without certs because it just seems lazy to him for you to JUST have a degree. These people are not dumb, they know that technology changes in leaps and bounds. This years new, is next years old. So if you have a BS from 1982 as some of my coworkers do, is it really all that relevant in 2009? Certs matter, thats a fact. They let employers know you havent just been Ass-In-Seat for 20 years.

My coworker has 13 years of experience, a BS, an MS and a few old certs. He is talking about the CCNA soon to set himself apart once the job market heats up a bit. I work in gov, certs matter there too.

jimbarino

yuriz43 wrote: »

I have to respectively disagree with you here.

Most HR departments and technical recruiters don't even know what a CCNP is! Sure there may be instances where they specifically ask about it, and this is usually because somebody from the engineering/IT department gave HR some criteria to go by. But ultimately HR and Recruiters will go by the universal formula ( see below )...

I was just relaying my experience. I have the degree (in History,as a matter of fact...), and 15+ years of experience, and all that seemed to mean bupkis a few months ago. Suddenly I get the cert and people are talking to me.

AlexMR

I hope to be in your position soon, OP. The CCNA and CCNA Voice has not done the deed for me .

I got a phone interview and an interview and in both situations they asked me specifically for the CCNA. I am a civil engineer with structural engineering specializations and with some management/project management experience. In both interviews they said I was "overqualified" for CCNA jobs and they couldnt offer them to me. I was a little shocked but somehow i understood.

Now i should be taking the BSCI exam in the next few days and im trying to push really had to get the CCNP. They both said the CCNP is going to make me enter IT with a very solid salary and with all the possibilities given my engineering and project management experience.

I have been a little lazy in the past two weeks but before that I was at full throttle...Im trying to resume the pace and get it done! My goal is to be CCNP by march 2010. I am now a full time student. I think it can be done.

malcybood

billscott92787 wrote: »

I have to disagree. The certificates are what sets your resume apart from those individuals that do not have certifications. It proves that you have the knowledge you say you do because if you are knowledgeable in the area, then it shouldn't be that hard to obtain the certifications. The certifications keep your resume from being glanced and hitting file #13. In addition to that, experience DEFINITELY is important. Maybe back in the day you could have been lucky enough to land a networking job without certs. But, in today's economy you have to do anything that you can to set yourself apart from the next candidate that recruiter or person is going to see. In addition to that, sometimes the degree helps to substitute for a lack of experience. Even with that sometimes it means higher pay as well. It just depends on the company and the area. Honestly to be well rounded, I would say having a degree, CCNP, and experience, is going to set you apart from anyone else. Even for someone that has a few more years on you experience, with no degree and no certifications. But, then again it depends on the interviewer as well.

What exactly are you disagreeing with me about? Not sure you fully read my post properly........

Did you read the following?

"If a Cisco partner has the choice of 2 candidates that were perfect for the job from hands on experience side of things, one has a degree in Zoology (you did say any degree) and 5 years networking experience, but no Cisco certs and the other candidate has no degree, 5 years experience with networking and a CCNP, who is he going to choose?.........

CCNP guy every time, unless it was a graduate job they'd probably be level pegging."

or this...........

It is also worth mentioning that the majority of the most experienced guys I know (global outsourcing company), who are in management or senior technical roles i.e. consultancy / TDA types keep their certs current from checkpoint CCSA through to CCNA right up to CCIE. They must be doing this for a reason - to keep themselves marketable!

Nowhere did I say anything that remotely indicates ertifications are not important. My comments about experience + drive + ambition also mentioned I'd be looking for a Network Engineer to have at least a CCNA and was my personal opinion based on my own experiences. I thought my final comment pretty much summed this up...........

"Also remember guys who have been around a bit know more people who know them in the industry so certs become less important I guess. For younger generation, to get your foot in the door, you need to get certified and have the other attributes required, simple as that."

I think any of the older heads round here will agree that networking with people and building contacts over a long period of time you will never be out of work. My last boss hadn't applied for a job for almost 20 years through an application process (he's in his 50s and been working in telecoms / networking for 25 years and has no current certifications. He's been contracting as a Networks Project Manager for the last 2 years and prior to that held several technical / consultancy roles with major players in the ISP / Telco space - go figure.

billscott92787

malcybood wrote: »

What exactly are you disagreeing with me about? Not sure you fully read my post properly........

Did you read the following?

"If a Cisco partner has the choice of 2 candidates that were perfect for the job from hands on experience side of things, one has a degree in Zoology (you did say any degree) and 5 years networking experience, but no Cisco certs and the other candidate has no degree, 5 years experience with networking and a CCNP, who is he going to choose?.........

CCNP guy every time, unless it was a graduate job they'd probably be level pegging."

or this...........

It is also worth mentioning that the majority of the most experienced guys I know (global outsourcing company), who are in management or senior technical roles i.e. consultancy / TDA types keep their certs current from checkpoint CCSA through to CCNA right up to CCIE. They must be doing this for a reason - to keep themselves marketable!

Nowhere did I say anything that remotely indicates ertifications are not important. My comments about experience + drive + ambition also mentioned I'd be looking for a Network Engineer to have at least a CCNA and was my personal opinion based on my own experiences. I thought my final comment pretty much summed this up...........

"Also remember guys who have been around a bit know more people who know them in the industry so certs become less important I guess. For younger generation, to get your foot in the door, you need to get certified and have the other attributes required, simple as that."

I think any of the older heads round here will agree that networking with people and building contacts over a long period of time you will never be out of work. My last boss hadn't applied for a job for almost 20 years through an application process (he's in his 50s and been working in telecoms / networking for 25 years and has no current certifications. He's been contracting as a Networks Project Manager for the last 2 years and prior to that held several technical / consultancy roles with major players in the ISP / Telco space - go figure.

I apologize I misread your post.

hypnotoad

yuriz43 wrote: »

I have to respectively disagree with you here.

Most HR departments and technical recruiters don't even know what a CCNP is!

Agreed.

HR Goon: "You don't have an A+?"
Me: "No but I have plenty of other qualifications."
HR Goon: "Oh...well i dont know about that MCITP thing either. Sounds bogus. And that CCNA, does that make you some kind of nurse?"

rwwest7

ColbyNA wrote: »

I must be the exception to the rule as I work for a Fortune 50 company, and I have no degree. And, without having the CCNP I don't think I would have even been looked at.

So either I'm the exception, or you're just wrong. As people have said on here time and time again, there is no exact formula for what makes a candidate value. Experience is generally the most important, and, IMO, certs are next, then the degree. I see more job postings requesting experience and certs than I do posts requiring a degree.

I think it comes down to who's filtering candidates/resumes. If it's just some HR honk then a degree in history is worth more than a NP. If it's someone who actually works in the IT dept then the NP would hold more weight. Especially if person filtering actuallys has a CCNP him/herself.

elegua

hypnotoad wrote: »

Agreed.

HR Goon: "You don't have an A+?"
Me: "No but I have plenty of other qualifications."
HR Goon: "Oh...well i dont know about that MCITP thing either. Sounds bogus. And that CCNA, does that make you some kind of nurse?"

Hi,

I agree.

Couple years ago i was looking for a job and i saw a posting looking for IT guys, i applied and got a call couple days later, the guy explained me that they were looking for a guy to completed a crew, basically the job description was: setup small networks when a business start or moving existing networks from one place to another, placed 10-20 computers sometimes more, add printers, run cables and all that, install windows XP or Vista in those PCs but not all the time and do some wireless stuff, the guy asked me if i have MCSE certification and i asked him if we have to work with servers or things like that and he told me " we don't touch servers", only PCs and running cables, i told him well i have my A+, Network+, Security+ and I'm stuying for my CCNA and with those im able to do what you are asking, also i have experience in the filed (Windows XP and Server 2003) and he told me "we are looking for guys with MCSE Certifications".

What i'm trying to say here is, must recruiters don't have an idea about certifications, they sometime don't have a clue what that is and just added those letters to the requirement list, now tell me if someone needs MCSE to do that job??, they think that to obtain any certifications is like go to any retail store and buy something, they don't realize that you have to spend time, money and effort to accomplish that.

BW, after that he never called me again, later i got this job with Sony Canada in the IT department, better pay and they only required A+ certification.

billscott92787

I can agree that they don't realize that it does really take time and money to obtain really any certification. Especially when we are talking about the Cisco Track!

chrisone

Certificates distinguish you from from all the rest!
Please like i would hire a kid with a BA degree with no certs than someone with a CCNP or CCIE and no degree......

Facts are college IT degrees teach you a little bit of everything , programming, hardware, software, networking, etc. In no way do they focus on the amount of "CONCENTRATED" material that a CCNP, CCIE, CWNP , or any high end juniper certs offer.

I have the best of both worlds with my college degree and Certs. My certs outway my degree far more by ten folds! i also put my college degree after i list my certs.

Just the way of the IT world. If i would have gone for a masters or PH.D in IT , my life would have been miserable and i would own like 80 to 100k in school loan debt with a 60k paying job only to still have to study for Certifications to further my career lol Luckly i was smart enough to only obtain my Associates in Science degree and only owe 20k in debt , few!

Because of my certs i have a high paying job that i am grateful for. Id rather spend 60 to 80 bucks on a book, study on my own, get some CBT nuggets and practice labs with GNS and master my craft that way then, rather to give 60k+ to schools that wont teach me the material that well, or better yet, teach me the material i want to learn! remember your forced to study other subjects non IT related and IT subjects you might not like.

Dont get me wrong i believe in going to college and getting a degree but i am just not to sure about it for the IT field. Maybe for management in IT college is better suited. Id rather spend 4 years studying and obtaining a ccna,ccnp, ccie cert and earning 90K and above with no debt, than to get a BA in computer science with 60k debt and a starting 50k job and only to study for certs after my 4 years lol

Geez imagine how hard and terrible it would be while you were studying for a CCNP to have to worry about reading and studying for a history class, economics class! dude, and you wonder why so many college kids are depressed or have psychological problems!
Sorry but those are straight up facts!

Bl8ckr0uter

chrisone wrote: »

Certificates distinguish you from from all the rest!

Please like i would hire a kid with a BA degree with no certs than someone with a CCNP or CCIE and no degree......

Facts are college IT degrees teach you a little bit of everything , programming, hardware, software, networking, etc. In no way do they focus on the amount of "CONCENTRATED" material that a CCNP, CCIE, CWNP , or any high end juniper certs offer.

I have the best of both worlds with my college degree and Certs. My certs outway my degree far more by ten folds! i also put my college degree after i list my certs.

Just the way of the IT world. If i would have gone for a masters or PH.D in IT , my life would have been miserable and i would own like 80 to 100k in school loan debt with a 60k paying job only to still have to study for Certifications to further my career lol Luckly i was smart enough to only obtain my Associates in Science degree and only owe 20k in debt , few!

Because of my certs i have a high paying job that i am grateful for. Id rather spend 60 to 80 bucks on a book, study on my own, get some CBT nuggets and practice labs with GNS and master my craft that way then, rather to give 60k+ to schools that wont teach me the material that well, or better yet, teach me the material i want to learn! remember your forced to study other subjects non IT related and IT subjects you might not like.

Dont get me wrong i believe in going to college and getting a degree but i am just not to sure about it for the IT field. Maybe for management in IT college is better suited. Id rather spend 4 years studying and obtaining a ccna,ccnp, ccie cert and earning 90K and above with no debt, than to get a BA in computer science with 60k debt and a starting 50k job and only to study for certs after my 4 years lol

Sorry but those are straight up facts!

I agree. But I think as time progresses, the "entry level" jobs are going to require CCNPs and MSCS degrees. IT (unlike alot of other fields) is constantly suffering from the crab in the pot phenom. I can't drive to work with the radio on without hearing at least 2-3 advertisements about "GETTING CERTIFIED IN MICROSOFT NETWORKING" and "EARN 60K in 6 MONTHS".

As brain **** become more and more available and as more and more people get displaced out of other fields, IT is going to suffer even more. How can you tell a "good" MCSE/CCNP before hiring them on and watching them crash and burn in the mist of a real problem? Experience is one good way, but how do you get exp if everyone wants exp?

Degrees suffer from the same type of issues. People can **** there way through classes, bribe people for answers, get passed from class to class by professors and etc.

In the future, you will have to have a GPA of 4.0 (at least) major in CS, MATH, or something related, go to an Ivy league school, Have 4 years experience, have CCNA/CCNP and MCITP (along with a slew of comptias) just to get a 14 buck an hour job answering the phones.

But for those "real" seasoned, qualified, and capable IT pros, the field will be great. Because there will be so few that really know what they are doing, that they will be saught after. This is what I think anyway.

dynamik

Wow, that's a bit gloomy.

A lot of those people aren't going to stick around when they realize they're going to be making $26k at a help desk or will move on when they realize they don't genuinely like the work and were just chasing after easy money.

I don't know how much more prevalent **** could be. They're usually the second or third result if you just google the exam code.

It's relatively trivial to weed people out through technical interviews and tasks in a test lab.

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

How can you tell a "good" MCSE/CCNP before hiring them on and watching them crash and burn in the mist of a real problem?

Um, a simple technical phone interview. Over 50% of the people whose resumes that we pull from a pile where the candidate lists the CCNA as one of their certifications can't get past a simple 10 question technical phone interview.

And as for the CCNP becoming "entry level" -- that seems to be something the people who **** their certifications and the people getting rich off the people who believe the radio advertisements that you should "earn the money you deserve" want people to believe. In the past, 80% of the people who had a CCNA AND CCNP, but NO IT experience, couldn't pass that same CCNA technical phone interview. We don't even bother with those NO experience CCNPs any more unless they are coming through the College recruiting program or were recommended by their Cisco Network Academy Instructor as a potential superstar. We won't even consider them for the entry level Rack 'n Stack positions anymore since there are more than enough qualifed candidates who seem to have a clue about IT.

chrisone

KNWminus i think you misunderstood my post. I was just merly comparing Certs and Degrees, the pros and cons from each based on an IT career. Dont get me wrong i hold experience in high regards. My post was just Degree vs High end certs.

Dont confuse my comparison using CCNP/CCIE with some in the level of A+,Network+ or some other entry level cert.

the good thing is that 90% of employers know or should know how hard and the high respects a cisco professional level cert is in the industry. I dont agree with yours statements on how a CCNP will someday be entry level. Brain **** does give you the title, but it wont give you the performance, reliablility, and confidence in your peers.

ColbyG

mikej412 wrote: »

Um, a simple technical phone interview. Over 50% of the people whose resumes that we pull from a pile where the candidate lists the CCNA as one of their certifications can't get past a simple 10 question technical phone interview.

Exactly. The cert/experience/degree gets you that interview. Those things don't guarantee you a position, that comes down to your personality and what you actually know. I think companies should do mini-labs during the interview process as well. The initial phone screen with technical questions to weed out the liars/people who overstate, then a face to face interview to see if the person will be a good fit in the company, and finally a more serious technical interview/lab test to see if they have a deep understanding of what you need.

Bl8ckr0uter

dynamik wrote: »

Wow, that's a bit gloomy.

A lot of those people aren't going to stick around when they realize they're going to be making $26k at a help desk or will move on when they realize they don't genuinely like the work and were just chasing after easy money.

I don't know how much more prevalent **** could be. They're usually the second or third result if you just google the exam code.

It's relatively trivial to weed people out through technical interviews and tasks in a test lab.

Don't take it as gloomy. That isn't how I meant it. I meant this in a good way.


Ok lets look at what Mike said:

mikej412 wrote: »

Um, a simple technical phone interview. Over 50% of the people whose resumes that we pull from a pile where the candidate lists the CCNA as one of their certifications can't get past a simple 10 question technical phone interview.

Let me tell you why I think it will become more difficult in the future.
There is a guy I know at work lets say his name is Bill. Bill got hired on the week after I did. Bill has been bouncing around IT jobs since the early 90s. In the Cincy Market, there are several big name places, Siemens, P+G, CB, GE, and Kroger (and others). A lot of the time since the IT talent pool is, in a word strange, people will bounce back and forth for years between these companies through the form of layoffs, hires, furloughs, contracting, etc.

Well Bill who was tired of working at one of these companies, applies for a job at another company who just so happens to be hiring for Tier II Noc jobs. At Bills previous job, Bill was a cisco pix/asa/router/switch jockey doing everything from racking and stacking to configurations, to ordering. Bill has never achieved his ccna but has more than ccna level skills.
Well Bill does great on the Technical interview (of course, he has years of experience) and eventually gets the job. Bill then starts his job and meets me.

Now I befriend Bill and he begins to tell me about all the different security roles he has had and so on and so forth. At this point neither one of us had our CCNAs but they were required for our jobs. So I am studying I take the test, and failed (with like a 743) he sits the test and pass with a 950 (or something). I then take the test later and pass.

Now for most people this situation is expected, Bill has years of exp, but not only does Bill have years of exp, he had an additional edge, Brain ****. Bill used TK to get through the exam and passed it easily. I used transcender and got through after some work.

Now it would just so happen that Bill and I are both studying for the CCNA:S (I started after him). Guess what he is using for that? TK! I asked him why he used braindumps, and he just stated that he needed an edge and he would be able to pass without them but he just wanted to make sure. Plus they were cheap. I don't know the exact prices but BrainDumps being cheap seems to be part of there appeal.

Now from the outside Bill not only has certs he has exp and we all know certs+exp=knowledge (). And when it comes down to whom gets sent to the juniper training, Bill gets to go over me.

My point is this, I know that I am a "better" ccna than him (we have proved this in application with an ACL problem, that is a very funny story...) but his resume would be more than likely pulled over mine because he has more exp. I wish I could say that Bill was the only "Bill" I know (I know someone wants to say I am sitting on capital hill )
but there are dozens that I know of personally. When I went into the checkpoint forums for information on there products (since I was expecting to support them) it was a literal **** pile of braindumpers. And I know that a lot of people here know people who are the exact same way, they are experience, intelligent, and they are cheaters .

I was a little out of it earlier and I didn't state my point correctly. I think that a major problem in the future will be the experienced dumper, that is a the dumper with the exp and certs and the one that uses **** to get ahead.


BUT here is the good part: Not everyone is cheating. Not everyone dumped their way to the top. And I think those people will shine through because those will be the ones who remember the deny deny at the end of the ACL. Those are the people who will really know what a 169 ip address is. And ultimately those are the people who will know how to get err done.


So mike have you ever had a run in with a person like that?