It's worth it, people...

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

So mike have you ever had a run in with a person like that?

Yeah -- I'm an overpaid contractor who still has a job (at corporate headquarters), while hundred of former employees who sound like Bill don't. And it will probably be a few years and a wild economic expansion before the next generation of Bill's stand a chance of getting hired where I'm working.

And in the smaller Business Partner/VAR environment I worked in before contracting (before Cisco existed as a company), Bill would never have been hired. And back in those days we made BIG MONEY going in and cleaning up Bill's problems for the Companies that hired Bill or hired the Consulting Company that Bill worked for.

AlexMR

Could it be possible that the impact of **** is overrated?

Having taken 3 cisco exams I honestly dont know how anyone could study those things and pass the exam without knowing the material. Even if they did I couldnt possibly understand how they could EVER get a job after an interview.

I think there's a lot of anxiety generated by the fact that this is a field that moves so damned quickly. For those who dont feel challenged and interested instead of anxious I think another career is probably their best bet. Things move slowly in civil engineering. Good luck in undergrad school because you'll need it. LOL.

mikej412

AlexMR wrote: »

Could it be possible that the impact of **** is overrated?

Some people lied about their education on their resume long before the Internet.

Some people lied about their job experience on their resumes long before the Internet.

Some people cheated on vendor certification exams long before the Internet, ****, and 3rd party testing centers.

There might have been a time in the past where having a certification was a ticket to a good job -- but some people dumping has turned certifications into one more thing on a resume that should be verified if it's actually important to doing the job.

billscott92787

chrisone wrote: »

Certificates distinguish you from from all the rest!
Please like i would hire a kid with a BA degree with no certs than someone with a CCNP or CCIE and no degree......

Facts are college IT degrees teach you a little bit of everything , programming, hardware, software, networking, etc. In no way do they focus on the amount of "CONCENTRATED" material that a CCNP, CCIE, CWNP , or any high end juniper certs offer.

I have the best of both worlds with my college degree and Certs. My certs outway my degree far more by ten folds! i also put my college degree after i list my certs.

Just the way of the IT world. If i would have gone for a masters or PH.D in IT , my life would have been miserable and i would own like 80 to 100k in school loan debt with a 60k paying job only to still have to study for Certifications to further my career lol Luckly i was smart enough to only obtain my Associates in Science degree and only owe 20k in debt , few!

Because of my certs i have a high paying job that i am grateful for. Id rather spend 60 to 80 bucks on a book, study on my own, get some CBT nuggets and practice labs with GNS and master my craft that way then, rather to give 60k+ to schools that wont teach me the material that well, or better yet, teach me the material i want to learn! remember your forced to study other subjects non IT related and IT subjects you might not like.

Dont get me wrong i believe in going to college and getting a degree but i am just not to sure about it for the IT field. Maybe for management in IT college is better suited. Id rather spend 4 years studying and obtaining a ccna,ccnp, ccie cert and earning 90K and above with no debt, than to get a BA in computer science with 60k debt and a starting 50k job and only to study for certs after my 4 years lol

Geez imagine how hard and terrible it would be while you were studying for a CCNP to have to worry about reading and studying for a history class, economics class! dude, and you wonder why so many college kids are depressed or have psychological problems!
Sorry but those are straight up facts!

Chrisone,


It is not fun. I am doing it right now and have been while I obtained my CCNA. I did it while studying for my BCMSN. I'll be doing it up until the point that I finish my CCNP and chances are I'll start studying for my CCIE while I'm still in school. I guess it all depends. I think if your going to go to college, don't stop it from letting you obtain certifications at the same time.



The overall experience is that most jobs you have to have experience to get the job. But, you gotta be able to get a job to have the experience so it is just waiting for that person that gives you an opportunity to interview, you have to do your best, show that you know what your certification shows, so that interviewer can distinguish the cheaters from the ones who actually "work" at their certifications and learn rather than **** their way into a certification. I'm hoping that once I get my CCNP that I can find something in the networking side of things. I work in IT right now on a VPN Help Desk. So, I guess I just gotta learn at my best and wait for an opportunity

billscott92787

knwminus wrote: »

Don't take it as gloomy. That isn't how I meant it. I meant this in a good way.


Ok lets look at what Mike said:





Let me tell you why I think it will become more difficult in the future.
There is a guy I know at work lets say his name is Bill. Bill got hired on the week after I did. Bill has been bouncing around IT jobs since the early 90s. In the Cincy Market, there are several big name places, Siemens, P+G, CB, GE, and Kroger (and others). A lot of the time since the IT talent pool is, in a word strange, people will bounce back and forth for years between these companies through the form of layoffs, hires, furloughs, contracting, etc.

Well Bill who was tired of working at one of these companies, applies for a job at another company who just so happens to be hiring for Tier II Noc jobs. At Bills previous job, Bill was a cisco pix/asa/router/switch jockey doing everything from racking and stacking to configurations, to ordering. Bill has never achieved his ccna but has more than ccna level skills.
Well Bill does great on the Technical interview (of course, he has years of experience) and eventually gets the job. Bill then starts his job and meets me.

Now I befriend Bill and he begins to tell me about all the different security roles he has had and so on and so forth. At this point neither one of us had our CCNAs but they were required for our jobs. So I am studying I take the test, and failed (with like a 743) he sits the test and pass with a 950 (or something). I then take the test later and pass.

Now for most people this situation is expected, Bill has years of exp, but not only does Bill have years of exp, he had an additional edge, Brain ****. Bill used TK to get through the exam and passed it easily. I used transcender and got through after some work.

Now it would just so happen that Bill and I are both studying for the CCNA:S (I started after him). Guess what he is using for that? TK! I asked him why he used braindumps, and he just stated that he needed an edge and he would be able to pass without them but he just wanted to make sure. Plus they were cheap. I don't know the exact prices but BrainDumps being cheap seems to be part of there appeal.

Now from the outside Bill not only has certs he has exp and we all know certs+exp=knowledge (). And when it comes down to whom gets sent to the juniper training, Bill gets to go over me.

My point is this, I know that I am a "better" ccna than him (we have proved this in application with an ACL problem, that is a very funny story...) but his resume would be more than likely pulled over mine because he has more exp. I wish I could say that Bill was the only "Bill" I know (I know someone wants to say I am sitting on capital hill )
but there are dozens that I know of personally. When I went into the checkpoint forums for information on there products (since I was expecting to support them) it was a literal **** pile of braindumpers. And I know that a lot of people here know people who are the exact same way, they are experience, intelligent, and they are cheaters .

I was a little out of it earlier and I didn't state my point correctly. I think that a major problem in the future will be the experienced dumper, that is a the dumper with the exp and certs and the one that uses **** to get ahead.


BUT here is the good part: Not everyone is cheating. Not everyone dumped their way to the top. And I think those people will shine through because those will be the ones who remember the deny deny at the end of the ACL. Those are the people who will really know what a 169 ip address is. And ultimately those are the people who will know how to get err done.


So mike have you ever had a run in with a person like that?

I have a guy at my workplace that use to work on the same help desk that I work on. He now works in the same building but took a security level job, he got offered it because he complete a masters degree in Information Assurance. He has his CCNA. When he found out that I passed my CCNA, he was asking all kinds of questions, he was coming up for renewal on his certification. He had asked what I used to prepare. I told him that I used the ICND1 and ICND2 books, and a simulator, and some labbing on my real equipment that I purchased. His next response was, "Wow, you passed that on your first try? There are people that fail the CCNA one, two, three, plus times." It was almost like he couldn't believe that I passed. I spent about 7-8 months preparing for it, I told him. His next question was, "Did you use any ****." I told him no, because the truth is I didn't. I studied hard and it paid off in the end. The funny thing is, by asking me that, it tells me that is probably how he got his CCNA.


About two weeks later, when I started studying for my BCMSN, he was asking me questions about the text, if they had changed it because when he looked at it the routing book was around 1,000 pages. He had said that after he passed his CCNA he started to study toward one of the first tests toward the CCNP, but he couldn't do it. He said when he looked at the routing book it was just too in-depth for him, so he didn't go on with it. Now he is re-certifying for the CCNA. About a week before my BCMSN exam, "Steve" (lets call him that) I like this game, we can make up whatever name we want... Can I call him Cornholio? LOL Just kidding, anyways back to what I was saying. He came over to my desk and picked up my BCMSN book and said, "WOW, you went through that thing pretty quick." I just kind of sat there and looked at him. He asked when I was testing and I told him at the time in one week (Dec 3, 2009 was my test). Steve than said, "Wow you really think you are ready already?) I told him that I believed that I was and that I would find out once test time came. Needless to say I passed the exam. I spent about two months studying for it. What Steve didn't know is when I was working Saturday and Sunday, I was studying my entire shift pretty much 6 am - 4 pm. When I was off Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, I was up at 5:30 AM, studying until around 9:30 AM on those days. So, I came to work that Saturday (Dec 5th 2009) and told Steve that I had passed. He was shocked. I didn't get the **** question, which is good because I didn't use them. There is no point in them.


All in all, I put two and two together that Steve had to be using **** to originally pass his CCNA. I haven't had any issues understanding the material in the BCMSN or even so far with my BSCI studies. I plan to test end of January or Beginning of February. I guess Steve just hasn't learned yet that cheating doesn't pay off in the end. I mean if you want to do well in the Cisco world really you can't ****, it doesn't do anything for you but let you put a few letters beside your name. You still have to be able to back those certifications up.

M4verick

billscott92787 wrote: »

I mean if you want to do well in the Cisco world really you can't ****, it doesn't do anything for you but let you put a few letters beside your name. You still have to be able to back those certifications up.

Agreed. And I know a number of people who use ****. Some of them are very nice individuals that you wouldn't guess otherwise, who really do know what they need to do on the job, just can't pass the tests alone, (not that it justifies it by ANY means). Most, I have found, are lazy.

billscott92787

M4verick wrote: »

Agreed. And I know a number of people who use ****. Some of them are very nice individuals that you wouldn't guess otherwise, who really do know what they need to do on the job, just can't pass the tests alone, (not that it justifies it by ANY means). Most, I have found, are lazy.

Believe it or not there is only one person at the place that I work with Cisco Certifications that works in our Networking department. He has the CCNA and the CCNP. The other ones do not have any Networking certs. They do have experience but not the certs. A few of them have taken the test and failed. I mean everyone is different when it comes to test. There is one guy that works for Sprint back in that department, that "Steve" from my story, told me failed the test 3-4 times and still has never passed it, and he does networking ALL day long. That is why "Steve" couldn't believe I passed on the first try, and why he asked me if I had used ****. At least that is what I am assuming the reason for asking me is. Unless he just had a guilty conscious about something.....


Another guy back there let's call him "Bruce" gave me the finger when I told him that I passed, because he failed it once and never attempted it again. Another networking guy, I was talking to today, he was asking me about the BCMSN and why I was doing the CCNP track and everything, told me he won't attempt the CCNP because he could barely get by the CCNA. Honestly, I have never been a good test taker, I hate tests. But, I just study, go in and think, "I'm either going to pass or fail. If I fail, I will just take the test again."


To be honest on the BCMSN I was worried, not really because of the test, but because I had to take a huge freaking LEAK, about half way through the exam, and I even went to the rest room before going into the test room. LOL

Turgon

AlexMR wrote: »

Could it be possible that the impact of **** is overrated?

Having taken 3 cisco exams I honestly dont know how anyone could study those things and pass the exam without knowing the material. Even if they did I couldnt possibly understand how they could EVER get a job after an interview.

I think there's a lot of anxiety generated by the fact that this is a field that moves so damned quickly. For those who dont feel challenged and interested instead of anxious I think another career is probably their best bet. Things move slowly in civil engineering. Good luck in undergrad school because you'll need it. LOL.

If you have seen the actual test questions it's not that difficult. This has been a problem on the CCIE lab actually. Have a group of four people working together memorising a number of different 'real labs', then all go in and take it and swap experiences back at base. Some people think it's impossible to memorise a lab topology, questions and solutions but it really isn't. You could just go over it again and again until you have it down without understanding it, then bang the whole thing in before lunch.

Turgon

billscott92787 wrote: »

Believe it or not there is only one person at the place that I work with Cisco Certifications that works in our Networking department. He has the CCNA and the CCNP. The other ones do not have any Networking certs. They do have experience but not the certs. A few of them have taken the test and failed. I mean everyone is different when it comes to test. There is one guy that works for Sprint back in that department, that "Steve" from my story, told me failed the test 3-4 times and still has never passed it, and he does networking ALL day long. That is why "Steve" couldn't believe I passed on the first try, and why he asked me if I had used ****. At least that is what I am assuming the reason for asking me is. Unless he just had a guilty conscious about something.....


Another guy back there let's call him "Bruce" gave me the finger when I told him that I passed, because he failed it once and never attempted it again. Another networking guy, I was talking to today, he was asking me about the BCMSN and why I was doing the CCNP track and everything, told me he won't attempt the CCNP because he could barely get by the CCNA. Honestly, I have never been a good test taker, I hate tests. But, I just study, go in and think, "I'm either going to pass or fail. If I fail, I will just take the test again."


To be honest on the BCMSN I was worried, not really because of the test, but because I had to take a huge freaking LEAK, about half way through the exam, and I even went to the rest room before going into the test room. LOL

The thing you have to remember is that the membership of techexams is simply not representative of the networking body politik as a whole. Networking has grown organically over the last 15 years with many practitioners not holding any of the certifications everyone on here craves. The knowledge is 'local' learned on the job and passed down over time and it usually doesn't include a lot of the stuff the vendors test. At the sametime most of the holders of Cisco certifications I have run into in the field have little or no intention of giving up slews of personal time during evenings and entire weekends preparing for certification exams. They dont have the books you have on your shelf and they would regard the hording of network equipment or the usage of emulators as quite simply sad. I recall showing off if you like Scott Morris's home lab to some colleagues at work years ago and they were totally freaked out with one much travelled CCIE I worked with commenting that many people that do such things are likely to have social problems. They thought it was oddball, and as people are supposedly defined by the friends they keep then clearly I must be a little strange too.

It's actually not strange, just unusual for your typical networking stiff. Trust me, most folks I have worked with (and that includes some very large organisations over the years) just don't put in what your typical TE'er does on the study front. So it's TK or P4S for these guys. I recall when I was struggling to get my written passed in 2006 being personally encouraged by a CCIE who handled 4th line on the core to stop throwing money away and get the **** because that's exactly what he did to recertify.

I might add that many working for service providers or an organisation chasing Vendor accreditation status use **** for fun to pass as many certifications as painlessly as they can and it's a practice that has been going on for years, is either convieniently ignored or actively encouraged, and isn't going to stop soon. I don't condone it, but when you are sitting in a team which includes some clowns who are have more qualifications than a deck of cards and bonuses are linked to accreditation, and you take a holier than thou attitude to certification I can well understand why the boss will see you as unproductive when Dave and Sam have obliterated 10 certifications inside 12 months and delivered 12 projects in the field when you have delivered 8 projects in the field because you have struggled to prepare *properly* for your certs and have failed exams that it took you 6 months longer to prepare for ligitimately. For all these reasons I can understand why people shortcircuit the learning process. It sucks, but there you go.

mikej412

billscott92787 wrote: »

he does networking ALL day long.

What exactly is he "networking" all day?

The guys sitting in the data centers waiting for their computer to beep to alert them to call an admin or SE to fix something might "network" or "admin" all day -- but it doesn't seem that impressive when you look at what they actually do all day, no matter what their resumes say.

Some people luck out and get a job at a big company that hasn't looted the employee pension fund yet -- and if they are happy with what they are doing and don't ever have to look for a new job -- then they probably don't need to worry about certifications.

Bl8ckr0uter

Turgon wrote: »

I might add that many working for service providers or an organisation chasing Vendor accreditation status use **** for fun to pass as many certifications as painlessly as they can and it's a practice that has been going on for years, is either convieniently ignored or actively encouraged, and isn't going to stop soon. I don't condone it, but when you are sitting in a team which includes some clowns who are have more qualifications than a deck of cards and bonuses are linked to accreditation, and you take a holier than thou attitude to certification I can well understand why the boss will see you as unproductive when Dave and Sam have obliterated 10 certifications inside 12 months and delivered 12 projects in the field when you have delivered 8 projects in the field because you have struggled to prepare *properly* for your certs and have failed exams that it took you 6 months longer to prepare for ligitimately. For all these reasons I can understand why people shortcircuit the learning process. It sucks, but there you go.

That is what I was thinking as well. Bill got his CCNA before me, he might also get his CCNA:S before me. Maybe I want to do so many certs because I don't want to be left behind, because honestly I don't think our manager would care how we get the certs as long as we get them.....

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

That is what I was thinking as well. Bill got his CCNA before me, he might also get his CCNA:S before me.

And there's probably a person working on a help desk somewhere who dumped the CCNA/CCNP while you were studying for your CCNA.... Exactly how does that person's CCNA/CCNP affect your knowledge and skills and ability to perform networking tasks?

Oh, and while you're working on the CCNA:Security, that helpdesk person is dumping the MCSE.

In 5 years that helpdesk person with every dumpable certification under the sun probably will still be complaining about working on a helpdesk.

In 5 years do you still plan to be working with Bill and being one certification behind? Or are you going to study and learn and in 5 years make 5x more $ than Bill? (unless he gets a fake MBA and becomes CEO).

The time spent worrying about other people and their career path/choices is time you're not spending worrying (and studying and learning) to advance yours.

Turgon

knwminus wrote: »

That is what I was thinking as well. Bill got his CCNA before me, he might also get his CCNA:S before me. Maybe I want to do so many certs because I don't want to be left behind, because honestly I don't think our manager would care how we get the certs as long as we get them.....

I wouldn't get hung up on certs at all to be honest. If you have all kind of kudos and benefits associated with having more of them than the average bear, say if you work for a reseller or as an instructor, then there is more call for certification to satisfy your *work* requirements. Other than that you really want to be just getting a few to get a taste of things and then focus on one advanced track that truely adds value to what you are actually doing in your job. You need to be careful with over doing certification because it takes gas away from where it is needed i.e your job. The key is to get exposure to the sorts of things you want to do. A certification or two may help you get that, but then you really need to make that certification track your *secondary* concern. Your primary concern should be to work as hard as you can on that real work opportunity. Give that your attention and energy, as opposed to spending more gas on preparing for yet another multiple choice test.

A lot of people burn up valuable works time chasing more paper when they really could be doing so much better on the job chasing down more responsibilities and real world experience. This has always been the stuff that ultimately get's you bonuses and promotions and gives you something to brag about in a future interview when you get lined up against the next NP/IP/VP/SP. The certs *are* useful but somewhat vanilla, use them to get your hands on some meaningful work but then expend your energies on really doing a good job. Trust me, if you do that the certs become less of a watermark for your career and you really wont have much time for them anyway. One could be working late in the office or at home building a cracking reputation for delivering impressive things for the company instead of doing more VoD's.

SysAdmin4066

Certifications/degrees/experience are important things on your resume to get the interviews. Once you get in front of those who you'll be working with and for, it really just matters what you can get across that you know. I know brilliant guys who dont interview well. I know average guys who interview extraordinarily. Technical interviews are so unique to our field. Accountants, as far as I know, arent asked to go over tax codes or things of that nature in their interviews. They are usually asked about what their experiences are with tax codes, etc.

We are expected to not only discuss our experiences, but also at some point for advanced technical positions, demonstrate our ability to do the actual work. I had an interview for a Lead Infrastructure Engineer for a large company maybe a year or two ago that really didnt ask many questions in the interview. I got the interview because of what I looked like on paper. There were a few general questions and then immediately I was asked to demonstrate some things in their actual working environment.

Things like fingerprinting their VPN structure, giving the interviewer information from DNS, changing some things in Active Directory, reading ACLs and stating what they would accomplish, etc. It was a true test of what I actually knew and had been exposed to. Some things I wasnt familiar at all with. Others, I knew once upon a time but hadnt touched in years. I did fairly well and got the offer, but declined in favor of my current position. Interviews like that are great though, as they help to prepare you to work under pressure. I'll say it again though, certs/degrees/experience is not what gets you the job. How well you do in the interview is what gets you the job. Those things garner interest in you. Which is equally as important. Also another aspect is job performance.

Once you the get the interview, get the offer and accept it, you must perform adequately. Most jobs have probation periods where you can be easily let go. My current position had a 12 month probation period!! During that time, you'll have to prove that you actually know how to do the things you've advertised in your resume, and on your interview. In our field, it's black and white. You either can, or you cant. By the way, 50k yearly is good money coming from other fields. The average FAMILY OF 4 makes 48k total. That's pretty much middle class fellas.

gbadman

mikej412 wrote: »

The time spent worrying about other people and their career path/choices is time you're not spending worrying (and studying and learning) to advance yours.

Worth its weight in gold!

ilcram19-2

The way i see it certifications prove what you already supposed to know and that is it, once you decide on a career it is your responsability to keep current and to add as much as value to your self with knowledge and experiance, nowadays you cant really be sure of how a person earned a cert, thats why you have an interview before you get a job now that in there is the responsability of the HR or IT person thats hiring to decide if you are right for the job, so for all the Real Certified people congratulations and for the fake ones good luck
cuz you gonna need it .LOL

billscott92787

knwminus wrote: »

That is what I was thinking as well. Bill got his CCNA before me, he might also get his CCNA:S before me. Maybe I want to do so many certs because I don't want to be left behind, because honestly I don't think our manager would care how we get the certs as long as we get them.....

I agree that you shouldn't worry about what that other individual did. Just keep pushing forward and preparing yourself properly. Because one day he is going to get caught with his pants down. Hopefully you aren't there to see that. LOL, Just kidding. But, he will get busted one time and tremendously embarrassed when he doesn't know how to do something simple that he should with those letters beside his name. When you learn properly and know how to fix issues and answer questions, you will land a job making 4-5 times more than he will make. Like I said you gotta be able to back up what you "say" you know or what you do know because you properly studied.





Mike, also I totally agree with you. These guys here don't really do a thing to be honest. Unless there is a ticket we refer over to them, they pretty much just chill out and wait for work or for some type of upgrade to take place. That's probably why they don't care because they have been here for 2-5 years or more and they are too comfortable, they have it easy and don't see the need to go anywhere else, so they don't apply themselves. The one guy actually had a free voucher that expired in November of this year. He failed the CCNA about 3-4 years ago and said he was going to take it by the end of November. Haven't heard anything so I'm assuming he didn't take it. Free vouchers? Come on now how much better can you get? I wish I had a free voucher for $250 I spent on the CCNA, $150 on the BCMSN, the $150 that I'm going to spend when I register for the BSCI, and the other $300 for the ISCW, and ONT. The only good part is I do get reimbursed from my company for the tests. But, I have to sign a paper saying I will stay here for a year after they pay them. I just sign it, but I'm not going to let it hold me to the position if a better spot comes along in the networking field. I will just pay it back and move forward without looking back

Turgon

billscott92787 wrote: »

Mike, also I totally agree with you. These guys here don't really do a thing to be honest. Unless there is a ticket we refer over to them, they pretty much just chill out and wait for work or for some type of upgrade to take place. That's probably why they don't care because they have been here for 2-5 years or more and they are too comfortable, they have it easy and don't see the need to go anywhere else, so they don't apply themselves. The one guy actually had a free voucher that expired in November of this year. He failed the CCNA about 3-4 years ago and said he was going to take it by the end of November. Haven't heard anything so I'm assuming he didn't take it.

Well lets just hope for their sakes they don't get laid off between 2010 - 2015. At the very least they should be using the free time to train themselves up on the companies dollar. But what they should really be doing is pushing to get involved in much more meaningful work because when that interview comes around people want to know what you have been actually doing for the last five years. I'm afraid a lot of NOC people are just going to wind up unemployable in the years ahead as the chill out factor doesn't go unnoticed at head offices up and down the country.

mikearama

Oh my god, did you guys ever take this thing right off track. To remind you, the opening post was:

jimbarino wrote: »

I just wanted to give a little encouragement to all of those slogging through their CCNP studies.

and...

jimbarino wrote: »

So, when it seems like it's not worth spending hour upon hour studying to get a cert that most of your friends and family have never heard of, don't give up! It will put you on another level in your career.

We all know the dark side of certifications, and the debate over certs versus a degree will rage forever.

Nice work Jimmy. Good luck on the interviews, and no doubt an offer is coming your way. You've earned it.

As an aside, commenting on HR noobs and their lack of education (prolly not certified, either... or they dumped their way into their HR role), I was sent a job offer from a placement firm yesterday, scouting for a network engineer at a big telecom company here in Canada. Under the "Required" section, after listing a degree and/or 5+ years experience, they listed CCNA or CCIE. Huh? Hello? NA or IE? What, are they interchangeable? Damn, looks like my CCNP doesn't qualify, but if I dumb down my resume to just the NA, I'm gold! Stupid HR loser!

Mike

veritas_libertas

mikearama wrote: »

...did you guys ever take this thing right off track...

Yeah, that is rather common on this forum

billscott92787

mikearama wrote: »

Oh my god, did you guys ever take this thing right off track. To remind you, the opening post was:



and...



We all know the dark side of certifications, and the debate over certs versus a degree will rage forever.

Nice work Jimmy. Good luck on the interviews, and no doubt an offer is coming your way. You've earned it.

As an aside, commenting on HR noobs and their lack of education (prolly not certified, either... or they dumped their way into their HR role), I was sent a job offer from a placement firm yesterday, scouting for a network engineer at a big telecom company here in Canada. Under the "Required" section, after listing a degree and/or 5+ years experience, they listed CCNA or CCIE. Huh? Hello? NA or IE? What, are they interchangeable? Damn, looks like my CCNP doesn't qualify, but if I dumb down my resume to just the NA, I'm gold! Stupid HR loser!

Mike

Wow, I have to say someone didn't know what they were doing when they wrote up those requirements. I mean come on, I didn't know you jump right from CCNA to CCIE? What the heck am I doing studying for my CCNP then? LOL just kidding.

MentholMoose

SysAdmin4066 wrote: »

Technical interviews are so unique to our field. Accountants, as far as I know, arent asked to go over tax codes or things of that nature in their interviews. They are usually asked about what their experiences are with tax codes, etc.

I don't know about accountants specifically, but my wife is in finance/banking and she has done technical interviews. Many banking jobs require in depth knowledge of financial regulations, and the interviews do have questions about them.

Turgon

mikearama wrote: »

Oh my god, did you guys ever take this thing right off track. To remind you, the opening post was:



and...



We all know the dark side of certifications, and the debate over certs versus a degree will rage forever.

Nice work Jimmy. Good luck on the interviews, and no doubt an offer is coming your way. You've earned it.

As an aside, commenting on HR noobs and their lack of education (prolly not certified, either... or they dumped their way into their HR role), I was sent a job offer from a placement firm yesterday, scouting for a network engineer at a big telecom company here in Canada. Under the "Required" section, after listing a degree and/or 5+ years experience, they listed CCNA or CCIE. Huh? Hello? NA or IE? What, are they interchangeable? Damn, looks like my CCNP doesn't qualify, but if I dumb down my resume to just the NA, I'm gold! Stupid HR loser!

Mike

Mike of course your CCNP qualifies. If the HR guy doesn't understand this then he needs to put the crack pipe down. The prime requisite for this sort of job is experience doing engineering on networks, in spades. At the same time they would like to see some certification in there, CCNA at least, CCIE ideal.

mikearama

Turgon wrote: »

Mike of course your CCNP qualifies. If the HR guy doesn't understand this then he needs to put the crack pipe down. The prime requisite for this sort of job is experience doing engineering on networks, in spades. At the same time they would like to see some certification in there, CCNA at least, CCIE ideal.

Ah, but you further emphasize my point. What role could possibly require the CCNA at a minimum, but CCIE ideally? Any position that a CCNA could land, regardless of the pay range offered, would never (I hope) be accepted by an IE. This role wasn't extensive... maintain routers/switches/ASA's/concentrators/etc. I'm not applying for it as the pay scale is less than I currently make, and it doesn't include design opportunities. And I'm an NP!! How desperate would an IE have to be to even consider this kinda crap role!?!?

In the end, I agree with you... experience is king. It would just be nice to see someone in HR for one of the three big telelcoms in Canada know the value of a particular cert, and know that there's something between NA and IE.

networker050184

You are assuming that just because someone has a certain level of certification that is where their knowledge lies. Just because someone only has a CCNA (or no certification for that matter) doesn't mean they do not have IE level knowledge and experience. Maybe this employer just wants someone with any kind of Cisco certification. It doesn't mean that it is entry level because it requires a CCNA. I know this is a certification forum, but in the real world everyone isn't all about getting certs. I didn't get my CCNA until I had been working with Cisco stuff for about 5 years. I didn't take an entry level job just because I only had the CCNA though.

Turgon

mikearama wrote: »

Ah, but you further emphasize my point. What role could possibly require the CCNA at a minimum, but CCIE ideally? Any position that a CCNA could land, regardless of the pay range offered, would never (I hope) be accepted by an IE. This role wasn't extensive... maintain routers/switches/ASA's/concentrators/etc. I'm not applying for it as the pay scale is less than I currently make, and it doesn't include design opportunities. And I'm an NP!! How desperate would an IE have to be to even consider this kinda crap role!?!?

In the end, I agree with you... experience is king. It would just be nice to see someone in HR for one of the three big telelcoms in Canada know the value of a particular cert, and know that there's something between NA and IE.

Well..yeah I suppose so. There are a lot of newly minted CCIE's who need a job. At the same time there are very experienced guys with expired certs, myself included. So clients want a current CCNA as a minimum requirement.

mikej412

mikearama wrote: »

What role could possibly require the CCNA at a minimum, but CCIE ideally?

Multiple roles -- I've seen HR/Staffing Agencies use one job posting to try and staff all positions for a new project's small data centers.

Internally we'll smack HR to fix the posting(s), but when HR releases the jobs to the preferred staffing vendors we have no control over what they advertise -- and sometimes it seems the staffing agencies post one ad to staff all the projects from all their potential customers they may be bidding on. It's especially funny when they make it sound like one job

SysAdmin4066

MentholMoose wrote: »

I don't know about accountants specifically, but my wife is in finance/banking and she has done technical interviews. Many banking jobs require in depth knowledge of financial regulations, and the interviews do have questions about them.

What I meant was a demonstration of skills, like "do this". That is pretty unique to our field. Your wife may have been asked questions about financial regulations, but i'm sure she wasnt given a spreadsheet and told to balance the company's budget or something like that. Typically we have technical interviews, where we are asked to demonstrate our knowledge by actually "doing" things. At least that's what i've seen...