After NA but not quite NP level yet

Bl8ckr0uter

I have an interview coming up for an Associate Network Engineer (Jr network engineer) position in a few days. Since I am currently out of work I plan to use this time to bone up on some things besides Linux (which is another thread http://www.techexams.net/forums/linux/49571-linux-coming-months-3.html#post381283) the job requires something I have no exp in: VOIP. The posting stated they want basic knowledge of voice. I didn't plan to start the CCNA:V until after I did the S+ and L+ but I do have the CBTs for the CCVP track. I was wondering if that along with VOIP for Dum Dums would be enough to get the gist of it?

Also (network warrior) what is another post CCNA real world oriented read? I making my way through Network Warrior and labbing out the solutions in Cisco IOS cookbook. I also have the ISCW certification guide here but I read 2/3's of it while doing the CCNA:S. I still want to go over a few things (namely MPLS, DWDM, Gre tunnels and SSL vpns) but that is going to take some time. I want to be a "complete" CCNA (R/S, voice, wireless, sec, design) before I go on to the CCXP tracks but that doesn't mean that I don't want to review CCXP material to be better at my job. Any one have any suggestions?

mikem2te

knwminus wrote: »

but I do have the CBTs for the CCVP track. I was wondering if that along with VOIP for Dum Dums would be enough to get the gist of it?

Can't comment on the CBT for CCVP but the CCNA:V set are awesome, they are by the same guy, Jeremy Cioara. He does a very good job at explaining it all.

knwminus wrote: »

I want to be a "complete" CCNA (R/S, voice, wireless, sec, design)

My initial goal was NP but lately I'm thinking you are right, the complete CCNA set may have more value than the NP for the non specialist job market.

ColbyG

This book is pretty good:

Amazon.com: Cisco Network Professional's Advanced Internetworking Guide (9780470383605): Patrick J. Conlan: Books

The author kind of sucks at writing, but the information is good and it's pretty easy to follow. It's basically all the CCNP topics crammed into one book.

mella060

ColbyG wrote: »

This book is pretty good:

Amazon.com: Cisco Network Professional's Advanced Internetworking Guide (9780470383605): Patrick J. Conlan: Books

The author kind of sucks at writing, but the information is good and it's pretty easy to follow. It's basically all the CCNP topics crammed into one book.

Yeh pretty good book. Im going through it at the moment as well as Network Warrior. Seems to be plenty of typos in the internetworking guide but a perfect post ccna book. Plenty of useful info in there. Covers abit of everything from the CCNP.

Bl8ckr0uter

mikem2te wrote: »

My initial goal was NP but lately I'm thinking you are right, the complete CCNA set may have more value than the NP for the non specialist job market.

You are pretty close to having them all anyway. I am just looking at the market and it would seem that a CCNP just isn't enough (I mean as far as the material) nor is any cert. A lot of job want broad experience in many different things (voice, wireless, security) and I feel that getting all of the NAs will show that I have some knowledge in these areas. Now I am by no way saying that when I have the 5 NA level certs I will be equal to an NP, but I should have a more diverse skillset with the route I am going rather than just NA>NP.

I am also saying this comparing people with similar experience. A CCNP with CCNP level exp (whatever the hell that is) is obviously going to be better than a person with CCNA level certs and CCNA level exp. BUT 2 people with similar skillsets and experience but one did all of the NAs before the NP and one just went NA then NP the "playing field" maybe a bit more leveled. Who knows, I could be dead wrong but with the way employers are posting jobs , I don't feel like I am.

On another note since my end goal is CCIE Security, I feel like I should know a little bit about different types of networking, not just routing and switching.

ColbyG wrote: »

This book is pretty good:

Amazon.com: Cisco Network Professional's Advanced Internetworking Guide (9780470383605): Patrick J. Conlan: Books

The author kind of sucks at writing, but the information is good and it's pretty easy to follow. It's basically all the CCNP topics crammed into one book.

Cool. I have never heard of this one but seems like it has some good reviews. I will check it out.

luke_bibby

As someone else posted, the CCNAV CBT nuggets were awesome. You could probably knock over them all in a couple of days, skip some of the UC5xx crap, and have a basic knowledge of voip I've watched the CVOICE CBT nuggets and didn't like them as much as there didn't seem to be as much hands-on as the CCNAV ones

rwwest7

The BCMSN has voice and wireless material.

mikem2te

rwwest7 wrote: »

The BCMSN has voice and wireless material.

It does but only the switching side of voice as far as I can see (PoE, Voice Vlans and a bit of QoS). The scope of CCNA Voice is much bigger than what is touched on in the BCMSN. Similarly I would put money on CCNA Wireless being the same.

The more I think about it doing the CCNA then CCNP is good for the guys who want to specialise in routing and switching. For all round networking getting the CCNA Specialisation certs may be more valuable than the CCNP.

Not trying to be controversial but I'm beginning to think the three CCNAs (Voice, Security and Wireless) are almost equal to the CCNP, ok maybe not to the old sylabus but perhaps the new more specialised syllabus. CCNAs are not as indepth but could well be broader.

I think it'll be CCNA Wireless next for me. The one Month BSCI challenge can wait.

DevilWAH

I agree I think employees really will look favourably on a candidate with 2 or 3 CCNA certifications under there belt, espicly from positions requiring a range of skills.

I also think the CCNA specialists exams are going to look good on people with a CCNP to demonstrate a working knowlage of other areas.

I still think the CCNP will help get you the higher roles, but having a number of CCNA on your CV will get it moved up the pile rather than jsut the bog standard CCNA.

btowntech

I see good and bad points with either decision. All the CCNAs for wider knowledge or the CCNP for deeper knowledge. After studying for and obtaining my CCNP I can tell you that going back and studying for CCNA Security and Voice are relatively easy. You work harder and study harder for the CCNP exams which makes coming back to the other CCNA specialization exams seem easier. Just remember to learn what you want, have fun with it, and get experience.

As for job hunting, I have been on a few interviews as of late and can tell you that I have been put at the top of the list of interviewees due to my CCNP. Lots of jobs are looking for PIX/ASA experience which you won't pick up in CCNA Security. I have never really been asked to much about my wireless experience. Voice, unless thats the main job, you can learn it on the job if you have a desire.

You choose your path and I'll choose mine, and we may meet up with the same certifications one day. Just do what you feel is right with the situation you are in or where you want to go. I wish everyone the best!

My $.02

sides14

Interviews are about confidence. Unless it is a practical interview, it is about the gift of gab and having the ability to sell your self. My first junior engineer job, I didn’t even get to load the IOS. The only Cisco work that I ever did was install pre-configured routers and switches and call the CCIE for verification that everything was good. I did other things like test and extend network services and POTS lines, but it was very, very basic on the Cisco side.

Bl8ckr0uter

btowntech wrote: »

I see good and bad points with either decision. All the CCNAs for wider knowledge or the CCNP for deeper knowledge.

My thoughts exactly. In all honestly I have had 1 networking job in which I have touched cisco gear. 1. So I don't think I have the exp to do the CCNP/SP yet...

btowntech wrote: »

As for job hunting, I have been on a few interviews as of late and can tell you that I have been put at the top of the list of interviewees due to my CCNP. Lots of jobs are looking for PIX/ASA experience which you won't pick up in CCNA Security. I have never really been asked to much about my wireless experience. Voice, unless thats the main job, you can learn it on the job if you have a desire.

I understand exactly what you mean and I don't plan to use the NAs (or any cert) as the end all for my networking knowledge. I do plan to (over the next year and a half ) to get up at least a NP/SP level of understanding (even though it is unlikely I will have the test done by then) which to me included mpls, bgp, , is-is, pix/asa, vpn (ipsec and ssl). The job I am interviewing for is JR Network Engineer and they want a diverse skillset (voice, wireless, security) and I want to at least prove I have some knowledge of these areas and build myself up from there.

btowntech wrote: »

You choose your path and I'll choose mine, and we may meet up with the same certifications one day. Just do what you feel is right with the situation you are in or where you want to go. I wish everyone the best!

My $.02

Thanks man. I would call it a race but you have me beaten by a few steps. So I will just say I am going to play catchup.

suffah

sides14 wrote: »

Interviews are about confidence. Unless it is a practical interview, it is about the gift of gab and having the ability to sell your self. My first junior engineer job, I didn’t even get to load the IOS. The only Cisco work that I ever did was install pre-configured routers and switches and call the CCIE for verification that everything was good. I did other things like test and extend network services and POTS lines, but it was very, very basic on the Cisco side.

I dunno, I think it will vary by the job. My job interviewed me on plenty of layer 2 stuff (STP mainly), and they asked me to choose two IGRPs and grilled me on those. And they even had some questions regarding linux, even though it was not on the job description and I never mentioned I had "experience" with it. But they did not ask anything regarding security or wireless.

NightShade03

I agree that it is all based on the job at hand. This current job that I'm interviewing for is a Jr level admin job and the job posting was vague about details. After two phone interviews they seem to really be interested in me mostly they have said because of my diverse background. I have certs for M$ and Cisco, however most of my job experience is in linux and a little vmware. Turns out the role is working with linux/windows servers in a vmware environment. So again I think it all depends on the situation at hand and the job you really see yourself in 5 - 10 years from now.

btowntech

knwminus wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. In all honestly I have had 1 networking job in which I have touched cisco gear. 1. So I don't think I have the exp to do the CCNP/SP yet...

The job I am interviewing for is JR Network Engineer and they want a diverse skillset (voice, wireless, security) and I want to at least prove I have some knowledge of these areas and build myself up from there.

I would say that getting the different CCNAs would probably be beneficial to you for what you are looking at doing. My current job has nothing to do with voice, but I did a side job installing a couple of IP phones that got me really interested in it so I decided to study for the CCNA Voice for fun. Plus I would like to do voice work in the future.

knwminus wrote: »

Thanks man. I would call it a race but you have me beaten by a few steps. So I will just say I am going to play catchup.

I wouldn't say that I'm beating anyone in a race, I just got started at the race a little earlier than you is all.

chrisone

mikem2te wrote: »

my initial goal was np but lately i'm thinking you are right, the complete ccna set may have more value than the np for the non specialist job market.

never!!!!

I dont get how you CCNA Newbies feel having five or 10 different entry level certs can compare to any professional level cert.

CCXP > CCNA W,S,V,RS,X,Y,Z......

gbadman

chrisone wrote: »

never!!!!

Ever????

mikem2te

chrisone wrote: »

never!!!!

I dont get how you CCNA Newbies feel having five or 10 different entry level certs can compare to any professional level cert.

CCXP > CCNA W,S,V,RS,X,Y,Z......

CCNA Newbie maybe but certainly not new to networkking & IT. Personally I have 15 years in IT, it's just lately the oportunity to backup some experience with some extra certs and learn a few new things has arisen.

I agree, a professional cert is not comparable to many entry level certs, CCNP is a mans cert while CCNAs are for the boys, that is not the point, I'm not trying to compare the certs but assess their relative value.

My point is learning the right knowledge for the job market at the time and location, in effect targetting a persons skills and abilites to the market. From my experience and from what I have witnessed the majority of jobs out there are calling for a wide mix of skills in addition to routing and switching, mostly voice & security but maybe a bit wireless as well, which I suspect may not be satisifed in the new CCNP syllabus. I'm still waiting for the books to arrive to see how much voice and wireless are there - I'll make my final discision whether to pursue CCNP or CCNA:W then.

Now if it turns out the new CCPN Routing and Switching cert does cover the equivalent topics as the three CCNA specialisation certs then CCNP is the way to go. Otherwise I still think and have discussed this with a few network pros in my area, the three CCNA speciallisation certs may have more value than the CCNP.

IMO there's two factors in deciding the value of different certs-

Firstly a persons job goles, whether it is monetary, satisfaction, wanting to specialise or remain a general purpose do anything type of job.

Secondly it is a case of the right knowledge for the job market at the time, and in my part of the World having multiple CCNAs may be more of an advantage than having CCNA & CCNP.

Thats all.

Bl8ckr0uter

chrisone wrote: »

never!!!!

I dont get how you CCNA Newbies feel having five or 10 different entry level certs can compare to any professional level cert.

CCXP > CCNA W,S,V,RS,X,Y,Z......

Wow thanks for adding so much to the conversation.....


Ok I only have 3 years of paid exp and about 7-8 years overall (did some development in middle/highschool) I have had 1 job (my last job) in which I have been able touch cisco gear. Here are my reasons for completing the NAs before moving on to NP

1: Skillset:
Alot of jobs want a diverse skill set. I use to work with several NP/VPs and it seemed they either knew R/S or Voice (this was especially true of the voice guys who knew less about the network than I did). I want to diversify my skill set and understand NA topics before moving on to advanced topics

2: Jobs
This ties back into what I said earlier about skill sets. A lot of companies simply don't need CCNP level networking for blended IT positions. A system admin may not need to know about MPLS or BGP etc. In my job search their have been more jobs wanting Network+ or CCNA (yes you read that right) simply as a plus+. CCNP is not mentioned.

3:Experience
The CCNP is NOT an entry level certification. Having a CCNP, IMO is an advanced cert that should not be obtained by people without any exp. Even though I do have some, IMO I don't feel like I have enough exp to go after the CCNP/CCSP yet, so I am going to find a job, build my exp, and build my knowledge by going after ccna subsets.

I think that your statement was a bit elitist in nature (whether you meant it to be or otherwise). Everyone isn't going to go from CCNA to CCNP to CCIE directly. Some people want to branch out and get into different areas, maybe even certs that aren't cisco (blasphemer!!!!). So this whole my CCNP is better than your CCNAs is all relative to the actual networking knowledge of the individuals.

mikem2te wrote: »

C
Secondly it is a case of the right knowledge for the job market at the time, and in my part of the World having multiple CCNAs may be more of an advantage than having CCNA & CCNP.

Thats all.

Exactly. I can tell you this, my CCNA:security (along with some other things) are the reason why I have an interview in a few days. The hiring manager said that the CCNA:Security was a big plus and it made them more interested in me.

mikej412

I think the CCNA Specializations are great for distinguishing yourself from all the other CCNAs out.

And if you haven't decided what you want to be when you grow up, the CCNA Specializations can give you a taste of some of the specialized areas you may not get to touch in your current job -- and could open some doors either in your current job or future jobs.

In our environment, the CCNA Specializations may give a newbie an advantage for a NOC job once they've made it to the interview process -- but they aren't anything we currently look for when searching resumes for open positions.

Bl8ckr0uter

mikej412 wrote: »

I think the CCNA Specializations are great for distinguishing yourself from all the other CCNAs out.

And if you haven't decided what you want to be when you grow up, the CCNA Specializations can give you a taste of some of the specialized areas you may not get to touch in your current job -- and could open some doors either in your current job or future jobs.

In our environment, the CCNA Specializations may give a newbie an advantage for a NOC job once they've made it to the interview process -- but they aren't anything we currently look for when searching resumes for open positions.

So Mike:

You are hiring for an slightly less than Mid level position in the Noc. It has come down to 2 people. Everything about them is equal degree and salary wise but they differ in certs and exp. 1 has the NP and has work 2 years as a dedicated R/S role (touching nothing else) and 1 has CCNA:S,W,V and CCDA and has work 2 years in a role that has allowed that person to use all of these skills plus more. They have worked in a smaller company which has allowed them to see "more" of the network. They both interview very well.

Who would choose? Or who would you be more likely to choose?

Ezlite

mikej412 wrote: »

I think the CCNA Specializations are great for distinguishing yourself from all the other CCNAs out.

And if you haven't decided what you want to be when you grow up, the CCNA Specializations can give you a taste of some of the specialized areas you may not get to touch in your current job -- and could open some doors either in your current job or future jobs.

In our environment, the CCNA Specializations may give a newbie an advantage for a NOC job once they've made it to the interview process -- but they aren't anything we currently look for when searching resumes for open positions.

Argee 100% with Mike on this matter. Diverse skill sets are great .. BUT .. they are much more important at senior and above positions, Esp when talking about moderate to large scale design.

and I will add:

Certs are great to get you into an interview and thats about it. I just went through an interview process for a senior client facing position and I had to go through 8, yes I said 8!!, hardcore 1-2 hr interviews. Regardless of resume/certs/etc any critical senior position will most likely have an interview process that makes a cert exam seem like a day at the beach.

btw .. no questions on security, wireless or voice were asked (and they are on my resume).

Ezlite

"Who would choose? Or who would you be more likely to choose?"

The choice would be based on the interviews .. not the certs .. and yes I have done my share of hiring. No two people interview the same ...

ColbyG

knwminus wrote: »

So Mike:

You are hiring for an slightly less than Mid level position in the Noc. It has come down to 2 people. Everything about them is equal degree and salary wise but they differ in certs and exp. 1 has the NP and has work 2 years as a dedicated R/S role (touching nothing else) and 1 has CCNA:S,W,V and CCDA and has work 2 years in a role that has allowed that person to use all of these skills plus more. They have worked in a smaller company which has allowed them to see "more" of the network. They both interview very well.

Who would choose? Or who would you be more likely to choose?

With everything else equal (personality, experience, etc) I would pick the CCNP every time. A CCNP should have a deeper understanding of core technologies than someone with all the Associate-level certs.

Obviously this isn't a very likely scenario, but that's what I think.

Bl8ckr0uter

So are you saying that I should go after the NP even though I know I don't have NP level exp rather than going for the NAs?

Ezlite

I would do the NP first and then CCDA/DP. NP gives some indication if depth and the design gives the diversity. Honestly the NA (x) are ok but the sooner you get exposed to protocols in depth the better ..... from my experience.

also .. get a JNCIA .. cross vendor shows something as well

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

they differ in certs and exp. 1 has the NP and has work 2 years as a dedicated R/S role (touching nothing else) and 1 has CCNA:S,W,V and CCDA and has work 2 years in a role that has allowed that person to use all of these skills plus more.

The CCNP.

The CCNA:* would have a shot at a job answering the phones for a NOC within a data center and wouldn't even be consided for anything more than that. If they took the position and had equivilent skills to that CCNP, they might then be working along side that CCNP within 6 months.

If a CCNP with R&S experiencce and a CCNA:Wireless certified person were applying for a Wireless position, the CCNA:Wireless would probably have an advantage.

If a CCNP with R&S experience and a CCNA:Voice certified person were going for a Voice position, the CCNA:Voice would probably have an advantage.

If a CCNP with R&S experience and a CCNA:Security certified person were going for a Security position, the CCNP would probably have an advantage.

Bl8ckr0uter

Ezlite wrote: »

I would do the NP first and then CCDA/DP. NP gives some indication if depth and the design gives the diversity. Honestly the NA (x) are ok but the sooner you get exposed to protocols in depth the better ..... from my experience.

also .. get a JNCIA .. cross vendor shows something as well

Go after a cert (NP) knowing that I am not ready for it seems like....stupid. Maybe I am missing something but shouldn't you want to master walking before you run?

Oh and as far as the JNCIA, It is on my todo list

Ezlite

I think the real point here is that an understanding of the protocols and how they work is what I look for when interviewing.

Troubleshooting ability is what makes a person stand out and the only way to really do that is to understand the underlying protocols in depth. I could care less if someone can rattle off configs for XYZ. What is rare is someone that can fix something that is 'broke' but looks ok by reading configs. I would trade 10 config gurus from 1 hardcore troubleshooter.

again .. just my thoughts based on my experiences

and btw .. I think your overestimating the difficulty of the CCNP exams.

Do one and see how it goes .. BCMSN for example ..

mikej412

knwminus wrote: »

So are you saying that I should go after the NP even though I know I don't have NP level exp rather than going for the NAs?

You should go for the certifications that help you do your current job better or help you get your next job.

There's no problem with going for a CCNP if you're working with Cisco equipment and using your Cisco knowledge on the job -- and are earning experience as you study for the CCNP.

On the other hand, the only people who seem to value the CCNP with NO experience are the people who get the CCNP with NO experience.

chrisone

Sorry if i came out a little rude earlier, but i too have just about 10+ years in IT. Yes I am a rather young man to many older people but I have my years in the game too. However in reality this is how i see it;

CCNA RS- Entry level, basic grunt work. There is no way you walk into any enterprise or organization and do full blown network engineering work here, touching routing protocols, making routing changes, working on core technologies in an enterprises core = forbidden for CCNA. Sorry but thats the reality.

CCNA Security = NO CHANCE in touching branch or core ASA/Firewalls.

CCNA Wireless = Better than the rest , lets face it this is an access layer technology. Yes i have 2 years in installing cisco APs.

CCNA Voice = Could get you lots of hands on and you will help many senior VOIP engineers. However dont think your going to go lone gunman on any enterprises/corporations Voice system and run the show.....its not happening.

Sorry for putting it so gently lol but thats the reality. Senior engineers will see all your CCNA certs and say, "thats cool , hes read about and maybe touched acouple few things here in there, but i wouldnt trust him designing/installing/troubleshooting a full blown enterprise companies network alone. I just cannot see how you guys value CCNAs over any CCXP cert.

Id rather stay in routing and switching and just touch R&S job duties with my NP and get paid a hell of a lot more money and be more invloved at work than a ticket cruncher CCNA.

Anyways llike many say here, just get the certs if they help you get your foot in and if its what the company your trying toget in, is looking for. I totally agree with that. Also if you have the experience that is just as good as a certified person with no experience, however the guy with the cert will have his resume on top of yours and will probably get phoned first for the interview and then you will be called in as well. Thats what i believe, im not right all the time...