After NA but not quite NP level yet

ColbyG

mikej412 wrote: »

You should go for the certifications that help you do your current job better or help you get your next job.

There's no problem with going for a CCNP if you're working with Cisco equipment and using your Cisco knowledge on the job -- and are earning experience as you study for the CCNP.

On the other hand, the only people who seem to value the CCNP with NO experience are the people who get the CCNP with NO experience.

What he said.

If you're looking for a job and you think the specialization certs will help, do those. They should take much less time (per exam) than the CCNP. I would grab the easy certs while you're trying to find a job, like the CCNA: *, JNCIA, etc. Then go for the CCNP when you've found a job and get some more experience.

Bl8ckr0uter

chrisone wrote: »

Senior engineers will see all your CCNA certs and say, "thats cool , hes read about and maybe touched acouple few things here in there, but i wouldnt trust him designing/installing/troubleshooting a full blown enterprise companies network alone. I just cannot see how you guys value CCNAs over any CCXP cert.

I am not a Senior Engineer, nor am I on Senior Engineer level so I wouldn't trust me installing full blown networks, yet . But you have to start somewhere and it seems to me that you are conveying that you feel that there is a mind set that it is either CCNP or you are somewhat worthless and I hope that is not what you are trying to say but that is the way I took it. Another thing is this, just because the NP isn't going to be my primary focus, doesn't mean that NP topics aren't going to be required for my day to day work (which is why I started this thread, I was looking for books to study next to help build my knowledge before I do the NP). I know several network engineers who work side by side CCIEs who have no certs ( cisco or otherwise). My question is, are you saying that I need the CCNP or I need CCNP level knowledge to be a qualified to be a to be a true entry level jr network engineer/tech?

I apologize for calling you an elitist by the way, I am sure you probably aren't like that in person (or maybe you are who the hell knows) and I should label a person based off of a forum post .


On another note: Were you ever "entry level" or did you just come out with an NP?

Bl8ckr0uter

ColbyG wrote: »

What he said.

If you're looking for a job and you think the specialization certs will help, do those. They should take much less time (per exam) than the CCNP. I would grab the easy certs while you're trying to find a job, like the CCNA: *, JNCIA, etc. Then go for the CCNP when you've found a job and get some more experience.

That is the plan. I just did the CCNA:S, it took me about 2 months but I could have been done in about 3 weeks looking back on it. I think the CCNA:V +W shouldn't be to bad and I would like to get them both done this year. I also want to do the DA because I have the CBTs for it and I want to do it while I have them. I would push for some juniper exams ( I have the material but I haven't really got into it) but I haven't seen a big push for them in my area so they will get pushed to the side for now. I want to do JNCIA before I get done with school but that will be more of a IF I get to it type of thing.

DevilWAH

mikej412 wrote: »

If a CCNP with R&S experiencce and a CCNA:Wireless certified person were applying for a Wireless position, the CCNA:Wireless would probably have an advantage.

If a CCNP with R&S experience and a CCNA:Voice certified person were going for a Voice position, the CCNA:Voice would probably have an advantage.

If a CCNP with R&S experience and a CCNA:Security certified person were going for a Security position, the CCNP would probably have an advantage.

See that's how I see it, a CCNP is still going to draw more attention than a person who just has all the CCNA's, but a person with CCNP + CCNA is going to stand out a little more.

mella060

I agree that the CCNP holds a lot more weight then any of the CCNA certs. The fact of the matter is that you still have to have a really good idea of how the network itself works before you worry about securing the network or adding voice. Any good engineer will tell you that. That is what the CCNP is for. After you have your NP, then going back and doing your CCNA security or voice should be a piece of cake.

I personally wouldnt worry about any of the specializations until i at least have a CCNP level of knowledge. Besides the R&S stuff is really cool anyway. Who wouldnt want to learn that anyway.

Experianced or not experianced, you can still go through the content of the CCNP and learn the material without doing the actual exams. After all the certs are just a piece of paper. It is the knowledge that counts. It is good to know the material as alot of employers will expect some form of CCNP knowledge such as HSRP, GLBP, VRRP, STP, Etherchannel etc etc...even though the job ad might be "minimum CCNA".

The more knowledge you have the better, even if you have never experienced the technology in real life knowing the theory behind it will get you past an interview.

Forsaken_GA

knwminus wrote: »

So are you saying that I should go after the NP even though I know I don't have NP level exp rather than going for the NAs?

That's a cop out.

No one has CCNP level skills or experience until they get off their behind and do something about it. If you're going to wait around for an employer to give you the opportunity to get that kind of experience without studying for it in advance, you're going to be in for a bit of a wait.

The bottom line is that each interviewer and company is different in what they look for. Some may prefer depth, some may prefer breadth. It's been my experience that depth will get you a better paying job, breadth gets extra workload dumped on you when someone quits or goes on vacation, usually without a pay increase. It's a tough job market right now, and experience is the real trump card. Beyond that, alphabet soup is alphabet soup. I personally believe that following more advanced certifications is a better career move than staying parallel, so that's what I do. I may eventually go back and pickup the CCNA specializations on my way to professional level certs, but it won't be before I grab a CCIE in R&S.

Long story short, step your game up.

chrisone

knwminus wrote: »

On another note: Were you ever "entry level" or did you just come out with an NP?

Yes i was entry level and i started before i got my CCNA, i got my CCNA after i got my jr network position. I also dont think i need to study and obtain all the CCNA certs in order to start on one Professional level path. I feel thats a little bit weird. Just like forsaken stated, just because you dont have NP experience doesnt mean you cant get the cert. I think what some of us are saying is that many of you guys who are saying "getting all the CCNA certs outweigh a NP" we are just telling you thats not the case. You guys have no idea how hard any of the NP certs are, maybe you guys dont mean that, but i know it was stated clearly several times by the CCENT/CCNA guys that stocking up on CCNAs will get you more jobs. To be honest i think its the complete opposite. As i still think many employers dont hold any CCNA level cert that serious. I guess a CCNA with like 1 year experience minimum as a jr network admin i wouldnt mind and would accept as an entry level position.

Anyways until you guys have your CCXP certs and play the field longer and have the feeling of your skill's worth with your Professional level cert then maybe you will understand where we are coming from. To be honest i got laid off last year in the middle of my CCNP journey. Just because i had the CCNP as a goal i got so many job interviews and opportunities during a "RECESSION!" i doubt i would have much success with a CCNA or any combination of CCNA. I am currently a network engineer and I am not trying to come off as an elitist or like Gary DOnahue (Network Warrior) says "The Computer Jerk" i just think you CCENT/CCNA guys really dont know the worth of a CCNP. It would be a different story if i said having all the NP certs outweigh one CCIE, but even then ....i dunno i dont have a CCIE and i havent felt the worth of a CCIE label. So i wont ever say such a thing. I hope that small example clarifys where most of us are coming from. I dont want to be the computer jerk , just clarifying things a bit here. Like i said im in no way 100% correct.

:insert: To answer you other question, i would suggest if you get a Jr network position that focuses on routing and switching, if you get the job, dont even bother with CCNA voice or wireless. Your boss/coworkers will make comments to you if you dont deal with that technology why are you studying for that unneeded stuff? It would look like your not serious about keeping your job and you are looking to move on quick. If you got a jr job in R&S then show them you mean business by starting for your CCNP. If you got a jr voice position or jr wireless tech then get the respective NP. It shows your there for the long run and want to improve on your job role. Same goes for security, if your doing jr security go for CCSP after the CCNA:S.

Bl8ckr0uter

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

That's a cop out....
Long story short, step your game up.

I wouldn't say that I am coping out at all and I understand that I need to "step my game up" but I am saying I think I should have more networking experience than 6 months (in networking) before attempting a mid level certification. But in the spirit of "stepping my game up" I have put Route on my radar, I will pick up the books in few weeks (after I finish S+ and L+) and I will probably pick the BSCI lab manual as well (unless they come out with a Route Lab manual soon ) and go from there.


Thanks, I think.

chrisone

knwminus wrote: »

I wouldn't say that I am coping out at all and I understand that I need to "step my game up" but I am saying I think I should have more networking experience than 6 months (in networking) before attempting a mid level certification. But in the spirit of "stepping my game up" I have put Route on my radar, I will pick up the books in few weeks (after I finish S+ and L+) and I will probably pick the BSCI lab manual as well (unless they come out with a Route Lab manual soon ) and go from there.


Thanks, I think.

do you mean security plus and linux plus? you want to get into networking and your waisting valuable study time on that stuff? If networking is your passion and future, dont even waist your time on sec+ / linux+. Not one of those certs will help you out in obtaining a Jr Networking job. Cisco doesnt run off linux servers and security plus as no valuable information when dealing with networking or cisco products. Unless comptia has networking hardware out?.....

Forsaken_GA

knwminus wrote: »

I wouldn't say that I am coping out at all and I understand that I need to "step my game up" but I am saying I think I should have more networking experience than 6 months (in networking) before attempting a mid level certification. But in the spirit of "stepping my game up" I have put Route on my radar, I will pick up the books in few weeks (after I finish S+ and L+) and I will probably pick the BSCI lab manual as well (unless they come out with a Route Lab manual soon ) and go from there.


Thanks, I think.

Dude, you have the same level of experience as when I started my CCNP, which was *gasp* a CCNA, fresh out of the Cisco Network Academy.

If you didn't have a CCNA and you wanted to start CCNP, I'd tell you to take a step back and start with basics. You've done the basics, so you're fine to begin more advanced studies.

I mean come on, you post this topic in a forum called CCNP with a bunch of guys who either have CCNP's (and in alot of cases, multuple Cisco Professional level certs) or are working on them, what do you think the answer is going to be?

If you think you're not ready, that's your choice of course, just make sure you're not making that a self fulfilling prophecy. The learning curve is there, and it's still the same curve whether you're taking it at 48 or 95.

Bl8ckr0uter

chrisone wrote: »

I think what some of us are saying is that many of you guys who are saying "getting all the CCNA certs outweigh a NP" we are just telling you thats not the case. You guys have no idea how hard any of the NP certs are, maybe you guys dont mean that, but i know it was stated clearly several times by the CCENT/CCNA guys that stocking up on CCNAs will get you more jobs. To be honest i think its the complete opposite. As i still think many employers dont hold any CCNA level cert that serious. I guess a CCNA with like 1 year experience minimum as a jr network admin i wouldnt mind and would accept as an entry level position.

I started to read the BSCI book and I am about 2/3s through the ISCW guide and I understood the material that I read. I listened to the Tier I-III network engineers at my previous job (NP level) and I realized that they far beyond me and about 2-3 months ago I decided that I wasn't ready. That is why I decided I wanted to do the NAs then go to NP.

Believe you me I know that the NP is more difficult than the NA..

chrisone wrote: »

do you mean security plus and linux plus? you want to get into networking and your waisting valuable study time on that stuff? If networking is your passion and future, dont even waist your time on sec+ / linux+. Not one of those certs will help you out in obtaining a Jr Networking job. Cisco doesnt run off linux servers and security plus as no valuable information when dealing with networking or cisco products. Unless comptia has networking hardware out?.....

I actually have a copy of ACS designed for Solaros

S+ and L+ are a part of my degrees Curriculum (S+ for the Network Engineer, L+ for Software Development)

Forsaken_GA

knwminus wrote: »

I listened to the Tier I-III network engineers at my previous job (NP level) and I realized that they far beyond me and about 2-3 months ago I decided that I wasn't ready. That is why I decided I wanted to do the NAs then go to NP.

Believe you me I know that the NP is more difficult than the NA..

Eh, experienced engineers speak their own language, and it's pretty intimidating to newcomers. I know a few CCIE's, and it took me a couple of years before I could hold my own in conversation with them. Now I catch myself doing it to other people, and have to readjust on the fly so I can speak on a level they might actually understand me

DevilWAH

Like many here I think you expetations should follow your experince. In my case I took my CCNA security becasue I was given a topic to set up a network with firewalls, siomethign that is not part of my day to day job, so perfect optunity to mix work and play and get a cert out of the end of it. and of course going through the course drew my attention to areas to look at.

But as core routing and switching is my main field it seems a CCNP is the obvious discesion to go with as the next step.

Having said that though I still want to do me CCDA along side it as I would like to get my CCDP at some stage.

I would really suggest you take teh exams that you have areas of strenth in, as you progress and lab/play on any exmas if you do it correctly, and the nature of netowrks you are young to be expanding you knowlage in to other areas (for instance CCNA security covers a lot of the switch security found in the CCNP) So if you take all the CCNA certificates I think you would find the CCNP quite an easy step up. On the other hand thats a lot of extra exams to cover and that takes time.

I think while you are starting out there is nothing wrong with gettign a few CCNA's before moving on to you CCNP, or jsut going stright for it. In the end it is likely to take you a couple of years from scratch to CNNP, taking a extra CCNA will add maybe a month or 2 to that time. So if you like the idea of extra CCNA's then go for them, there never going to hurt some one starting out in networking are they??
fter all Cisco hasen't spent money developing them if they did not think people would find them usefull.

I also think an employer who is looking to take on a juinour network engineer to work as a team is going to like the look of a CV where a person has 2 or 3 CCNA's and is currently working on a CCNP. To me that shows a person who like the subjest, has wide range of intrest and basic knowlage, and who is likley to push them selves to learn and develop.

Ezlite

knwminus,

I hope you get the fact that we are just trying to help and not trying to beat you up. Honestly I have better things to do with my time than to beat up on people in forums. I do think its worth my time to help someone that appears to have the drive to succeed with some advice that I wish I would have had when I starting into IT/Networking.

The reality is that the CCNP is , I am sure I will get beat on for this, an entry level cert for for network engineers. It covers a broad range of technologies and does a good job of doing it.

The CCNP exam does not really cover any one thing to a depth that is all that extensive. It does show that you have the base knowledge to work in an environment with experienced people and learn without asking questions that would be a waste of their time <RTFM will be the response you get>. CCNP also shows that you have the ability to learn on your own when needed (that is a biggie).

xYrs of 'meaningful' experience = <good,better,best> Network engineer

CCNP + little exp = I can hand you a RFC / spend a little time explaining / you go read it / I anwser a few questions to clairify.

CCNA(x) = I have to give a class (maybe short, maybe long and detailed .. who knows)

and thats why the CCNP has significantly more value the all the CCNAs combined. I know that I can get a CCNP up to speed on something with a small time investment. CCNAs ... maybe you get things fast ... maybe I have to spoon feed you for months and months ... and thats a risk I do not want to take when hiring. Remember, if I am the one that hired you then I am the one that will have to spoon feed if its required .. otherwise I look like a fool for bringing you on and my career is impacted.

So I think what 'we' are saying is ... Get your CCNP so that you have the background required to gain meaningful experience that will take your career where you want it to go. T1 NoC is not where you get that kind of experience ... so do all you can to get past that ASAP and on to positions that will give you the opportunity to improve with each day.

The depth of some technologies is mind blowing ... QOS for example. I hear people say "I am an expert on QOS", then I listen to them and nod (then often giggle in my own head). Check out - Queueing Networks and Markov Chains : Modeling and Performance Evaluation With Computer Science Applications <Gunter Bolch, Stefan Greiner, et al> and you will see the depth I am talking about.

whatever path you choose I wish you the best of luck.

chrisone

Ezlite wrote: »

The reality is that the CCNP is , I am sure I will get beat on for this, an entry level cert for for network engineers. It covers a broad range of technologies and does a good job of doing it.

I agree its covers a large amounts of information. However i dont see eye to eye with you on calling it entry level. But i assume you have your CCNP too and know how hard the material was. Everyone has a different opinion on the subject i guess.

As far as the Sec+ and Linux+ i say go for it if it counts as school credit. Also if your young and in your early 20s , dont even rush things man, remember CCNP is a career choice, many people get their CCNPs and just with job experience live comfortably for many many years without renewing their certs. So just take it easy, obsorb the info you recieved, take your time on making decisions. Im 29 yrs old and I am in no rush to get my CCIE, i have my degree and a CCNP and i am doing very well for myself. I will get a couple more Certs this year including the CCIE RS written, but thats all in due time, im in no rush anymore i have my career and job experience which also includes (ASAs, WiFi, managing a network to run VOIP, Security), its time to live life and enjoy each beautiful day.

Forsaken_GA

Ezlite wrote: »

The reality is that the CCNP is , I am sure I will get beat on for this, an entry level cert for for network engineers. It covers a broad range of technologies and does a good job of doing it.

No, I actually agree with you. Upon completion of the CCNP, I didn't feel this sense ecstasy from passing it. (that came from the 4 long island iced teas, and wore off entirely too quickly for my liking). Instead, it left me with the realization that I had *alot* more to learn (and really, that had sunk in while studying for it. Passing the exams was more like just going through the motions) Anyone who completes the CCNP and thinks they can jump right in running a large network is either A) flipping insane or a ringer who got the certification after years of hands on experience and just needed some resume keywords.

What the CCNP did do was give me the confidence in myself to know that I could learn this crap, and that it's a game of inches. I have the very good fortune to work with a CCIE who has 15 years of experience in this game, and who's willing to answer my questions and teach me the tricks of the trade. That has been far more enlightening than any Cisco Press book, and it's the primary reason I put up with crappy pay and shitty hours - I know I have a valuable resource to exploit.

mikem2te

Thanks guys,

I have been watching this topic with interest (and making the odd post), I'm in a similar position as kmwminus cert wise, in that recently getting the CCNA, CCNA Security & CCNA Voice. I did the Voice just because I love voice and considered it an easy cert to get - I'm very glad I did it, I've managed to finally get rid of my old Trixbox/Asterisk server with it's occasional dodgy timing problem. It also allowed using Exchange 2007 unified messageing - awesome :D !!

You all have provided a lot insight of what goes on in the minds of a CCNP and helped me get a few things clearer in my head. CCNP is definitely on my list, probably BSCI/Route followed by Switch then TS. I'm going to finish reviewing the CCNA W info (I have some APs' to configure) first though, probably no harm there due to the overlap with Switch.

Ezlite

chrisone wrote: »

I agree its covers a large amounts of information. However i dont see eye to eye with you on calling it entry level. But i assume you have your CCNP too and know how hard the material was. Everyone has a different opinion on the subject i guess.

I say entry level because CCNA is not enough to be called entry level, for network engineer that is, ie. no real ISIS, OSPF, BGP, QOS, etc ...

CCNP covers all that and a little more ... but does so at a basic level. Its a great start imo



and as for me, I took a break from networking, started waaaaaay back when, to do some chip/board/rf level work for a few years and decided to come back to IP networking. Coming back I saw that certs were now required for just about all govt. contracts so I decided to actually get a few. Started 12/22/2009 and should have CCNP/CCDP/JNICA-M done by next week (3 more exams .. ISCW tomorrow morn).

I already had the protocol knowledge .. just needed to brush up on the 'Cisco' specifics or as Forsaken would call me .. "B) a ringer who got the certification after years of hands on experience and just needed some resume keywords."

and btw .. its simpler now ... no token ring, bayan vines, ipx, FDDI, X.25, etc .... I am SOOO glad all that junk died

chrisone

Ezlite wrote: »

chrisone wrote: »

I agree its covers a large amounts of information. However i dont see eye to eye with you on calling it entry level. But i assume you have your CCNP too and know how hard the material was. Everyone has a different opinion on the subject i guess.

I say entry level because CCNA is not enough to be called entry level, for network engineer that is, ie. no real ISIS, OSPF, BGP, QOS, etc ...

CCNP covers all that and a little more ... but does so at a basic level. Its a great start imo



and as for me, I took a break from networking, started waaaaaay back when, to do some chip/board/rf level work for a few years and decided to come back to IP networking. Coming back I saw that certs were now required for just about all govt. contracts so I decided to actually get a few. Started 12/22/2009 and should have CCNP/CCDP/JNICA-M done by next week (3 more exams .. ISCW tomorrow morn).

I already had the protocol knowledge .. just needed to brush up on the 'Cisco' specifics or as Forsaken would call me .. "B) a ringer who got the certification after years of hands on experience and just needed some resume keywords."

and btw .. its simpler now ... no token ring, bayan vines, ipx, FDDI, X.25, etc .... I am SOOO glad all that junk died

Yeah im glad all that stuff is out and i never had to deal with that stuff to begin with lol. Wow CCNP / CCDP/ JNICA-M within 2 months it must have been really hard or easy for you hahaha that must be some kind of record, thats 7 certs within 2 months.

NightShade03

I think that the CCNP can be intimidating to some (myself included) and I've read through all the books but could never bring myself to sit for the exams. I just never feel comfortable enough with amount of information on the exams. I also think its a comfort level too. I'm a security nut and reading/studying for the CCSP has been easy. I don't think that the material is much easier then the CCSP I just enjoy it more, which makes retention and working with it easier.

I happen to agree that multiple CCNA's may help you get your foot in the door but thats about it (unless you really have an interest in a particular area). I don't have enough experience for a CCIE, but that isn't holding me back from going after it (want to take CCIE:Security written before the year is out).

Also like chrisone said, age has alot to do with it too. When you are young you want to take on the world (hence my sig) and I think its good because you shouldn't let anything hold you back, but you should pace yourself.

DevilWAH

I think the other thing about the CCNP is you are going to have to have access to hands on practice. I think with the CCNA certs you can do them from "theroy" only point of view (not a good plan but possible). Or at least with quite limited access throguh some thing like CISCO Packet tracer.

The CCNP though is going to show you have actually set it up and played with it a bit. I think back to 3 years ago, before I really had a feel for the IOS and realise how tough the CCNP would be. Going though it now and it seems "yer simple", but a lot of that is just knowing where to find things in the CLI.

So unless you have time on real hardware, Ie. access to a lab, or are prepared to set up something like GNS3 to simulate it all, you are going to have a tough time learning it all. And I have a feeling the new exams are really going to test your working knowlage of it, including how to trouble shoot it..

And again as far as multiply CCNA go I think it also counts where in you studies you are, some one who has achieved one CCNA a year and hasn't done one for a while is not going to look very good, on the other hand some one who has got 3 under there belt and is working on there CCNP (maybe passed one exam) that's going to look much better on a CV. But at the end of the day all any cert will get is some one to read your CV, and its not the only thing that will grab there attention. If you can get some one to read it they are going to want to see what you have done so far in your career.

I think a bucket full of CCNA's or a single CCNP may well get your CV a second glance. Just like people on the forum see the positives and negatives of the two approaches, so will different employers. but it's what comes in the pagraphs after that's going to get you the interview.

Ezlite

chrisone wrote: »

Ezlite wrote: »

chrisone wrote: »

I agree its covers a large amounts of information. However i dont see eye to eye with you on calling it entry level. But i assume you have your CCNP too and know how hard the material was. Everyone has a different opinion on the subject i guess.


Yeah im glad all that stuff is out and i never had to deal with that stuff to begin with lol. Wow CCNP / CCDP/ JNICA-M within 2 months it must have been really hard or easy for you hahaha that must be some kind of record, thats 7 certs within 2 months.

It was 'easy' from a protocol/design perspective and 'hard' from a remember all the little details that are cisco implementation specific. I seem to score 860-980 on the exams .. always missing at least a few "cisco" specific questions.

also .. I have been able spend 100% of available time on this .. M-F 8am-6pm and some weekends.

I have worked on so may different vendors router/switch/firewalls/etc that I never was someone that knew one vendor inside and out.

I was planning on sitting for the CCIE:R&S lab in june ... but .. a new job has shifted my focus to Juniper .. so JNCIP/E is on the menu now

Forsaken_GA

Ezlite wrote: »

I already had the protocol knowledge .. just needed to brush up on the 'Cisco' specifics or as Forsaken would call me .. "B) a ringer who got the certification after years of hands on experience and just needed some resume keywords."

I knew I had you pegged

Element926

I recently had very little knowledge with voice. But after I watched a few videos in the ONT (CCNP exam) - CBT Nuggets. I feel pretty confident about voice, not configuring it so much but the general concepts.

If you want a solid base, check those videos out!

Bl8ckr0uter

Element926 wrote: »

I recently had very little knowledge with voice. But after I watched a few videos in the ONT (CCNP exam) - CBT Nuggets. I feel pretty confident about voice, not configuring it so much but the general concepts.

If you want a solid base, check those videos out!

I have them (all the CBTs for CCNP and CCVP) and I will probably pick up the CCSP CBTs when I get closer towards having the CCNP done (now that the CCSP CBTs are up to date ).