Why do some people think just getting a Degree gets you a job?

NetworkingStudent

I think you are referring to IT or Computer science degrees, correct? Many people believe they deserve a job after obtaining a degree, because they don’ know about the value of certs, and they don’t how much experience is valued in IT. Also, they want a ROI=Return on investment, because they spent a lot time and money on the education. I blame the schools myself, because they often say you can be a network administrator, programmer, or web designer, ect, when you finish your degree; however, they don’t tell you that you might start out in help desk. It’s like some sort of dirty little secret that they don’t want to let anyone know. Sometimes a teacher may give students a wakeup call, and tell them that they may have to start out in help desk, or a similar position, but often it doesn’t happen. Moreover, they might explain the value of certifications or experience, but this is also very rare.
A degree is only one thing you bring to the table, but combine that with experience, personality, certifications, and you might beat the other guy that’s competing for the same position. At least that’s the way I see it.

TheShadow

Considering the date and the fact that things have been too tense lately lets do lunch everyone.

Hamburger University

pinkydapimp

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

I think you are referring to IT or Computer science degrees, correct? Many people believe they deserve a job after obtaining a degree, because they don’ know about the value of certs, and they don’t how much experience is valued in IT. Also, they want a ROI=Return on investment, because they spent a lot time and money on the education. I blame the schools myself, because they often say you can be a network administrator, programmer, or web designer, ect, when you finish your degree; however, they don’t tell you that you might start out in help desk. It’s like some sort of dirty little secret that they don’t want to let anyone know. Sometimes a teacher may give students a wakeup call, and tell them that they may have to start out in help desk, or a similar position, but often it doesn’t happen. Moreover, they might explain the value of certifications or experience, but this is also very rare.
A degree is only one thing you bring to the table, but combine that with experience, personality, certifications, and you might beat the other guy that’s competing for the same position. At least that’s the way I see it.

anyone that thinks they are deserved of a job simply by getting a degree is quite disillusioned. That goes for any degree/field. I know attorneys that cant find jobs. Getting certs doesnt guarantee you a job either.

Either way i still think it is beneficial to ones career to obtain as much of a higher education as is feasible.

cablegod

curtisdaley wrote: »

I wanna know why some people think a BSC or BEng purely on its own gets them a job! When we all know, Experience, CCNA, A+ and all the others, gets you a job!

A degree doesn't get you a job. Neither does any certs. Nothing "gets" you a job except for you. Your education makes it easier, yes, but ultimately it is you, the person who is being hired. I can train anyone off the street to manage servers and networks, but I sure don't want to have to teach them soft skills/people skills.

jeremy8529

Now, I hope that I am not being biased being an 18 year old entering the University of Tennessee next year for computer engineering, but I believe that a college education can open many more doors than what most people on this board seem to realize providing one caveat. If you are in engineering... you MUST CO-OP, enough said... Without being in the university system, you might not have been able to get that entry level summer co-op or internship. There are many jobs which you just can't do without graduating from an accredited university such as the medical field and engineering.

What I am saying is that by attending a top college, you open up doors which might have been hard to get otherwise. I can get my degree in 4 years, and if I co-op for three semesters, I can have that entry level experience that everyone wants and enter the work force at a much higher pay-rate than what would have been normally offered. So in a sense, you have to do more than just go to school and get a piece of paper, you need to live the life of a computer engineer while you are there. You must actually learn something while you are there that you can impress someone with in an interview.

hex_omega

BradleyHU wrote: »

i dont think thats what he's saying. The way i think he meant it is, that by having a degree should be good enough to get you an entry level job without having to have 1-2+ years of experience and certifications, not that you're entitled to one. I remember when I was coming out of undergrad 6 years ago, I thought that just having a degree would be enough to land a job somewhere after i interviewed for the position. I was going out for entry level positions such as QA Analyst, Help Desk, C++ Developer(glad i didnt get that, cuz i hate programming), Technical Analyst, etc...and i was told that i didnt get the job cuz i didnt have enough experience. Um, its an entry level position, the fact that I graduated with my degree proves that even tho I can learn & are willing to learn what is need to do the job. Its not that i felt i deserved the job, but i felt that my education qualified me enough for it. and that the point i think that hex_omega was tryin to make

Yes. Thank you. At least someone understands. I don't even have a degree but even I can see how some people with Bachelors can get so discouraged when they interview for entry level jobs but are turned down because they "don't have the experience".

DevilWAH

Stepping out side the IT field, I work in a company that deals with science.

I see people coming through the door with strings of letters after there names, and starting at the bottom, and others who have been in the game a few years longer with no qualifications at all getting lovely hand outs. Mainly because they as well started at the bottom and move up in other jobs and now have a good position and experience to put on there resume.

The one thing that will make your resume stand out above the others is you current job title.

Having IT manager / Network manager on your resume will move it straight to the top. Above all the other qualifications there are, especially if you have worked for a well known company.

And that's really what it comes down to. Experience... Some thing no qualification trains you for. In the real world you don't do things "by the book" and often the answers you learn in qualifications have no place on a live system.

A big business does not want to spend time (even if only 3 or 4 months) getting a collage graduate up to speed in the business world. Especially if they are going to be paying big money, they want intimidate results, and no matter how cleaver or well educated you are. Unless you have experience this will take time.

Only your theory education ends at the door out of uni, You then have to spend a little bit more time in the practical time of education. If you excel in your theory studies, and also in the real world studies, then your time towards the bottom is going to be very limited.

You time in uni may only be 3 years, but actual study time included gaining experience is more like 5. Of course if you are cleaver you work on getting both at the same time so you time at the bottom of the IT field, is done at the same time you are attending uni and getting your degree (as a few people have mentioned already)

earweed

TheShadow wrote: »

Considering the date and the fact that things have been too tense lately lets do lunch everyone.

Hamburger University

There's a degree that'll guarantee you a job..lol

mikej412

cablegod wrote: »

I can train anyone off the street to manage servers and networks, but I sure don't want to have to teach them soft skills/people skills.

One company I worked for (a while back) would have our recruiters cruise McDonald's drive-thru windows looking for help desk candidates -- you can teach almost anyone to read from a script and hunt & peck data into a database, but you can't teach the people skills.

And I like to think Fretters went out of business because our recruiters raided their computer & electronics sections to find employees for our more "technical" help desks.

curtisdaley

Thanks guys, i was planning on getting a CCNA and A+ as well as my BEng, i'm planning to do a placement year! As I know Experience is key and also a internship after graduation if possible!

SephStorm

curtisdaley wrote: »

I wanna know why some people think a BSC or BEng purely on its own gets them a job! When we all know, Experience, CCNA, A+ and all the others, gets you a job!

Why? easy, because it is what you are told from childhood. Your life's mission from the time you are born is to go to school so you can get to the next grade. When you get to high school, you have to do well so you can get into college. College will get you money, which will make you happy.

What else do we teach our kids? We are raised to think that school brings knowledge. Therefore since school is the path to our goal, school must give us the knowledge to get the money.

Also consider that in our parents day, a Bachelors was worth its weight in gold. Now Bachelors are expected, worth little else. But we don't tell our kids this, because we haven't realized it yet. Parents still believe that it will open the doors because it worked for them. They cant see outside of their imperium.

blargoe

curtisdaley wrote: »

also a internship after graduation if possible!

Why wait until after graduation? That's too late!

You should be able to land something before that... anything at a real company that you could put on your resume would be immensely beneficial. When your class graduates, everyone else will be standing there with just a degree and you'll have a degree and some limited experience.

rob7278

Of course I can't say that going to college and getting a degree is a waste of time and money; that would almost seem un-American.
However if you were to take identical twins and send one to college for 4yrs to get a degree and have the other one spend his 4yrs studying for certifications. Which twin do you think would have a better chance of getting hired? Which do you think will have spent more money?
It's a trick question because I highly doubt the twin studying for certs will still be looking for a job in 4yrs. In 2 yrs he/she could have all your basic- A+, NET+, Security+, MCSA/SE, CCNA. Get hired at least for Help Desk and would have 1 1/2- 2yrs Help Desk on the job experience.
So after 4yrs Twin A has a computer science degree, Twin B has A+, Net+, Security+, MCSE, CCNA and 2 years IT experience. Who are you going to hire? Who is more in debt?
Again not saying a degree is a stupid thing to pursue- but it's the knowledge acquired that is what is important, not the piece of paper that is supposed to symbolize the knowledge (whether it's a degree or a cert). I just think the certification route is more focused- you don't have to spend 2yrs and thousands of dollars taking generals that have nothing to do with the career you are pursuing. To be totally fair, experience isn't necessarily a get a free job pass either- there are quite a few people that I know that have 2-3 years help desk experience that do just enough to never get fired, but don't know much more than high school kids when it comes to computers.

jeremy8529

rob7278 wrote: »

So after 4yrs Twin A has a computer science degree, Twin B has A+, Net+, Security+, MCSE, CCNA and 2 years IT experience. Who are you going to hire? Who is more in debt?

Rob, I think the thing that you are not considering is that often people that go after the computer science degree are not seeking jobs as technicians or even administrators; instead, more often than not, your guy with the computer science degree will be on the developmental side. I personally don't even believe they would be even interviewing for the same job. I think you are comparing apples and oranges with all due respect.

OoteR

jeremy8529 wrote: »

Now, I hope that I am not being biased being an 18 year old entering the University of Tennessee next year for computer engineering, but I believe that a college education can open many more doors than what most people on this board seem to realize providing one caveat. If you are in engineering... you MUST CO-OP, enough said... Without being in the university system, you might not have been able to get that entry level summer co-op or internship. There are many jobs which you just can't do without graduating from an accredited university such as the medical field and engineering.

What I am saying is that by attending a top college, you open up doors which might have been hard to get otherwise. I can get my degree in 4 years, and if I co-op for three semesters, I can have that entry level experience that everyone wants and enter the work force at a much higher pay-rate than what would have been normally offered. So in a sense, you have to do more than just go to school and get a piece of paper, you need to live the life of a computer engineer while you are there. You must actually learn something while you are there that you can impress someone with in an interview.

My gut reaction was '18 year old.. .. doesn't know what he's talking about'

Luckily i kept reading. Co-op's and internships are absolutely key if you have any hope of being employed, doesn't even matter what school it is (ivy league or otherwise it seems) the experience talks more than the piece of paper.

I have a friend who went to a very good engineering school, and has had 0 luck finding work in engineering. So, yeah, it's rough out there.

OoteR

jeremy8529 wrote: »

Rob, I think the thing that you are not considering is that often people that go after the computer science degree are not seeking jobs as technicians or even administrators; instead, more often than not, your guy with the computer science degree will be on the developmental side. I personally don't even believe they would be even interviewing for the same job. I think you are comparing apples and oranges with all due respect.

A CS degree doesn't teach you how to program, it teaches you computer science. If you want to develop/program then you need a software engineering degree, or something similar.

eMeS

rob7278 wrote: »

Of course I can't say that going to college and getting a degree is a waste of time and money; that would almost seem un-American.
However if you were to take identical twins and send one to college for 4yrs to get a degree and have the other one spend his 4yrs studying for certifications. Which twin do you think would have a better chance of getting hired? Which do you think will have spent more money?
It's a trick question because I highly doubt the twin studying for certs will still be looking for a job in 4yrs. In 2 yrs he/she could have all your basic- A+, NET+, Security+, MCSA/SE, CCNA. Get hired at least for Help Desk and would have 1 1/2- 2yrs Help Desk on the job experience.
So after 4yrs Twin A has a computer science degree, Twin B has A+, Net+, Security+, MCSE, CCNA and 2 years IT experience. Who are you going to hire? Who is more in debt?
Again not saying a degree is a stupid thing to pursue- but it's the knowledge acquired that is what is important, not the piece of paper that is supposed to symbolize the knowledge (whether it's a degree or a cert). I just think the certification route is more focused- you don't have to spend 2yrs and thousands of dollars taking generals that have nothing to do with the career you are pursuing. To be totally fair, experience isn't necessarily a get a free job pass either- there are quite a few people that I know that have 2-3 years help desk experience that do just enough to never get fired, but don't know much more than high school kids when it comes to computers.

IMO fairly short-sighted.

Why does attending college preclude working full-time and studying for certs?

MS

chmorin

There are many factors that play into getting a job, and I'm going to rant a little bit in the hopes to benefiting the community here.

It has been drilled into our head that education is important, and without it we will not be able to get into college. The unfortunate thing, is that the people drilling this information into our heads are teachers and other educational instructors. These individuals have spent thousands of dollars into getting a degree that is mandated by law to have acquired to teach children/students. With this mindset, much of their focus will be on sending you to college.

However, the initial statement stands strong. Education is very important to getting a job in the world. Education, however, does not have to come from a university.

On top of education, experience plays a large card into being qualified for the job you want. You must compliment your skills with applying those skills in a professional environment. As you can't simply pay money to get this experience, unlike a college degree, this is generally weighed much heavier than a degree, at least in this field.

I'd like to say that getting into your first job when you have no experience is strongly a luck factor. Now, what many college graduates do is sit on their bums, and occasionally go out and talk to businesses or apply online, and expect their empty resume to fill in the blanks. If you are stuck at this point in your life, I have no advise for you. If you ask me, you already messed up.

Going back to the luck topic, it will usually take some sort of social engineering to get you your first job. If you start early, where a lack in experience is understandable, and supplement that with knowledge and certifications all you have left to do is use the resources around you. Even if all you can attain is a part-time job as a help desk tech, you will be gaining valuable experience towards your future job. This combined with more certifications and knowledge will aid you for the rest of your life. Some people say this luck is random, and I disagree. I believe that a smart individual can place themselves in situations where the luck they desire has a much better chance of coming to them. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." Don't rely on just one thing to work for you. Give yourself options.

With your experience growing, your knowledge growing, and your certifications growing, it would be an ample time to start your college education. By the time you attain your degree, you will have experience in the field, working knowledge of equipment, and certifications. At this point, who wouldn't want to hire you?

The point is, you have to start small and work your way up. A degree should be the icing on the cake. Without the actual cake, icing will make you sick.

By the way, I'm 19. If anything I said seems false, please correct me.

pinkydapimp

OoteR wrote: »

A CS degree doesn't teach you how to program, it teaches you computer science. If you want to develop/program then you need a software engineering degree, or something similar.

I CS degree does in fact teach you how to program. Programming is a good part of the coursework. You are correct though that it also teaches you computer science which is a solid foundation of knowledge and theory about computers and all things related. I think a huge advantage of going through a CS program is that you develop a way of logically thinking that can help you in many different roles from IT to networking and programming.

Many CS majors do decide to program. However, many don't. When i was in school i had no intention of programming for a living.

jeremy8529

Well, thanks for hearing me through Ooter before you drew up your conclusions. I have no doubt in my mind that anyone that co-ops in college on an engineering curiculum will be more successful than one who just gets their degree.

rob7278

I actually didn't intend to urinate all over the idea of going to college. We are all ultimately arguing the same point-
education (wherever you choose to obtain it from) + experience= better job prospects.
My issue with going to college was- I enlisted in the Navy to get money specifically to go to college, however when I got out I chose to buy a car, get my own apartment, run up some credit cards and *poof* I was no longer going to college, because I couldn't afford to. Which was completely my own stupidity.
However when I made the decision to try to start pursuing certifications or start taking college classes I was really turned off with the college route. I had to take all these classes (generals) that didn't even relate to what I was going to school for. Foreign Language, Humanities, etc. these classes are all fine and they are supposed to make you a more well rounded person; but thats a lot of money that I am being required to take. The other huge turn off for me was if I had the MCSE many of the universities would give me about 15-18 credits for already having it. However the hilarious part was if I were to take the courses for the MCSE through some of the universities with all of the prerequisites I would end up having to take anywhere from 30-40 credits to get the same MCSE. So 2 people could go to the same college- one person did the MCSE on their own and was given 18 credits for it, the other person took their courses through the university and with all the prerequisites would have 30-40 (40 would obviously be a worst case scenario) which is almost a 2yr degree. Throw in your 15-20 credits of Humanities, Spanish, etc. and your Associates Degree is an MCSE (but it cost you 10X more).
I am also admittedly somewhat bitter because last March I was laid off from a job as a Project Manager for a construction contractor where I had a nice $75k salary, company vehicle and bonuses. Because the construction industry is a no mans land for work I, at 38 am forced to re-train myself and study my a$$ off day and night in the hopes that I can land a job where most likely my pay/salary will be cut in half. But I have always loved computers and since the government (dislocated workers program) is paying for all my studying expenses in the long run I will be able to hopefully shoot past my previous income; take 10 steps back to come out 4 steps ahead.
Anyway sorry for my life story, but since this is an IT job thread I guess it fits. Thanks again to everyone that has helped me with finding various study resources and all the tips provided on these forums.

jeanathan

My CS degree required me to take courses in Object Oriented Programing, Data Structures, and my first class was structured programming techniques. All in c++.

I am by no means a programmer or could I hold my weight in a software development team from having those classes.

However, I understand programming techniques and could transition into a programmer quicker than a guy with A+ CCNP MCSA who has never read a c++ book from start to finish could.

So... those classes we take for CS degrees don't make us defacto programmers, but they do give us a well rounded CS industry marketability.

Of course you could just start out of high school doing amateur programming and pass some MSCD exams. I have seen jobs for Java certified developers with no degree required.

My philosophy is do what the market tells you. If the market says BS required, get it. If it says CCNP pays more than MCSE, get the CCNP. If you get hired at company X and they need a VBscript guy, become the VBscript guy.

I am going to start applying for jobs after I finish my CCNP so I can test this theory out soon.

chrisone

I know we are talking about education in regards for the IT industry here, but really guys, if the UK or USA were to influence their citizens to not attend a university or college degree , we would be at or below a third world country standards. The USA would have broken up into 4 countries west, north , south, east without education, which i also believe brings unity.

azjag

I can tell you what my bachelors degree did for me 2 hrs after getting the piece of paper. As some of you may know I recently graduated from WGU. I finshed the coursework for the BS IT degree on 3/19/10. Applied for graduation and paid to overnight my degree to me ASAP. The same day I finished the coursework I applied for a Systems Engineer position that had been vacant in my dept for 6 months. Fedex dropped off my degree at 2:17pm on 3/31/10. At 4:12pm I received a call from HR requesting a copy of my diploma so they can schedule an interview. I've been in IT for 9yrs and have several certs as well. But the only thing that got me through the HR filter was the Bachelors degree. After talking with HR, they had 300+ applicants for this position, 119 had 5-7 years experience, 41 of those had the required Bachelors degrees and of those 41, 13 had MCSA's or MCSE's as well. My interview is on Monday morning with my supervisor and CTO.

tpatt100

azjag wrote: »

I can tell you what my bachelors degree did for me 2 hrs after getting the piece of paper. As some of you may know I recently graduated from WGU. I finshed the coursework for the BS IT degree on 3/19/10. Applied for graduation and paid to overnight my degree to me ASAP. The same day I finished the coursework I applied for a Systems Engineer position that had been vacant in my dept for 6 months. Fedex dropped off my degree at 2:17pm on 3/31/10. At 4:12pm I received a call from HR requesting a copy of my diploma so they can schedule an interview. I've been in IT for 9yrs and have several certs as well. But the only thing that got me through the HR filter was the Bachelors degree. After talking with HR, they had 300+ applicants for this position, 119 had 5-7 years experience, 41 of those had the required Bachelors degrees and of those 41, 13 had MCSA's or MCSE's as well. My interview is on Monday morning with my supervisor and CTO.

I had a similar experience like the part I bolded. We were moving our offices and they came across a bunch of boxes and our manager showed me who I competed with for my job. He said they separated degree/cert/experience all the way down to who had all three and there was like 10 (something like that) of us.