Cisco/Microsoft Degrees at Community Colleges

sentimetal

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum but have always been interested in IT (namely Cisco) and have several friends who work in IT (some love it, some hate it... mostly hate it, though) and am looking for some opinions on some courses I am looking to take.

I'll start off with my history: I am 23 years old and work in the accounting department of a credit union. I have been working at the place for 5 years now, starting off as a teller and cross training in other departments and eventually landing a gig balancing general ledgers, accounts payable, receivable, etc. And while I had always considered going to school for a Bachelors in Network Technology, I kind of got lost in my job and eventually decided to take Accounting and eventually become a CPA. I am rethinking this as I find myself less and less satisfied at work everyday, however.

I've been recently thinking about taking a "certificate" course at the local community college to kind of get my foot in the door in IT, or at least get some general networking knowledge - even if it means I end up working at Geek Squad or something.

The course I am thinking of for now consists of the following classes:

CIS120 Survey of Computer Information
Systems (3)
CIS121 Microcomputer Operating System
Fundamentals (3)
CIS150 Windows 2003 Server (3)
CIS152 Network Infrastructure (3)
CIS153 Network Security (3)
CIS213 Linux Internetworking (3)
CIS215 CISCO Routers (3)
CIS219 Exchange Server 2003 (3)
CIS240 Network Essentials (3)

Does this seem like a good pathway for a beginner? Eventually, I would like to follow up with the Associates Degree offered here: Information Technology | GateWay Community College | Phoenix, AZ in Cisco Technology - but I personally have never heard of an Associates in Cisco Technology and wonder if it would be more practical to go for a degree in Business Admin. and maybe take the "certificate courses" offered by Gateway?

I'm not really looking to be an IT Project Manager or anything, at least, it's not in my plan at the moment 'cause I am a bit tired of office politics (hence the switch!)

I am a bit wary of the IT field, though, 'cause all I ever hear about it is how scarce jobs are, but I guess that's just the world in general at the moment.

My apologies for the long first post, I suppose my summary/TL;DR version is:

Thinking of taking the classes listed above then continuing with the degree in Cisco technology.

Wondering if an actual associates degree + ccna will give me an edge over someone with their CCNA? Or would it be better to pursue a degree in Business Administration? (I'm kind of sick of business...)

Thanks for reading :]

-Rob

tpatt100

The community college in my area has programs similar to this. I think integrating certs into degree programs is a great idea. There might be some conflict of interest issues due to the certs being vendor specific though. Vendors pushing for their cert so colleges can produce their product specific certification might make things messy.

I wish more schools had done this when I was in school. I got my A+ because the computer hardware class I was taking used an A+ study guide. Our teacher gave extra credit on our final if we took and passed the A+ at least the week before

xenodamus

An associates degree definitely won't hurt you. I feel like mine was a contributing factor in the jobs I've landed thus far. The AAS program that I took was at a community college and included the Cisco Network Acadamy as part of the curriculum. I think that was the most valuable part of my entire time there. We took alot of classes that prepared you for certain certifications, but the actual cert exam wasn't part of the college program.

If your trying to decide on an associates program I would go with an IT related one personally.

chmorin

Those sound like fun classes to me, I'm sure you will learn alot and it will be a good way to find out of networking is for you!

earweed

The courses you have listed look like a good mix. Get the associated certs while getting the education and try to get some type of co-op job while in school. If not co-op then try to get on help desk somewhere while going to school. Even work study( you may luck up and get to work on your schools network)

Zartanasaurus

Everybody has a different way of doing things. Given the options you presented, I'd go the AAS route over the "diploma" route. At least you'll have some credits that can transfer to a university, giving you some flexibility if you decide you want to get a bachelor's and beyond.

If it were me, I'd get the associate's in business with an eye on getting a CIS degree after transferring. While you're at the community college, you can still take some of those courses and self-study for an A+ cert. That will get you in the door for IT just as well, plus give you flexibility down the road.

fly351

My 2 cents. Stay away from APPLIED Science degrees. Two reasons: (1) if you don't get certified within the area of study, it's worthless. (2) if you go on for your bachelors, most of your credits won't transfer.

I have an A.A.S. in Networking (main area of study was Cisco, Microsoft, and VB.NET) but I never obtained my certs. Yes I know, my fault, but the credits are worthless at a 4 year school. IMO try to get an A.S. and then do studying on the side for the certs.

gosh1976

fly351 wrote: »

My 2 cents. Stay away from APPLIED Science degrees. Two reasons: (1) if you don't get certified within the area of study, it's worthless. (2) if you go on for your bachelors, most of your credits won't transfer.

I have an A.A.S. in Networking (main area of study was Cisco, Microsoft, and VB.NET) but I never obtained my certs. Yes I know, my fault, but the credits are worthless at a 4 year school. IMO try to get an A.S. and then do studying on the side for the certs.

I'm going back to school this summer and I'll be working towards my Associate of applied science. I'm about halfway there with my credits from before and when I've finished the associates I'll likely continue on and get my B.A.S. in Technology Management with concentration in Computer Networking at the same university. So all my credits will count towards the bachelors.

Darthn3ss

I'd look into how up to date everything is. Whe i first started my school they were still teaching novell. They've moved past that now but as far as i know there aren't any plans on adding server 2008 / windows 7 courses and the cisco equipment is getting old.

arwes

Our local 'vo-tech' campus started doing Cisco Academy stuff a few years back. It's apparently a two year thing. I wanted to see how the first group did before I'd ever consider going, and a coworker of mine was doing it. After it was all said & done, an overwhelming majority of the class failed the CCNA. Talk about a waste of two years.

Devilsbane

I'm just about to graduate from a community college myself, and I know many people that are in basically the same situation as you. Firstly, I would recommend getting more than a certification. A lot of time those certifications are 16 credits while the 2 year degree is 64 credits. If you can arrange it right, pick up that certification on your way to grabbing the 2 year. It will help in your search and also leave the door open to pursue a 4 year.

Now the problem... Many of these people with are smart people, yet most of them aren't ending up with jobs. The reason? They lack the extra effort. They come to all the classes and go above and beyond with their assignments and don't get jobs. (Mostly, some of course do). I know people that have taken 4 CCNA prep courses, but they don't finish it off with actually taking the test. That test (and nearly all certification tests) are what gets your resume read and gets you in for an interview. They might not get you the job, but without them it is so much harder to get one.

So my advice: Go to the community college, but aim for more than just the certificate. Although getting the cert first could possibly land you a job while you are finishing your degree. And 2, grab as many certs as you can(CompTIA, Microsoft, Cisco, doesn't matter just get something. The CompTIA route might be a good place to start). That makes the difference, Johnny went home after class to watch TV while Sentimental went home and cracked a book to study.

ajmatson

fly351 wrote: »

My 2 cents. Stay away from APPLIED Science degrees. Two reasons: (1) if you don't get certified within the area of study, it's worthless. (2) if you go on for your bachelors, most of your credits won't transfer.

I have an A.A.S. in Networking (main area of study was Cisco, Microsoft, and VB.NET) but I never obtained my certs. Yes I know, my fault, but the credits are worthless at a 4 year school. IMO try to get an A.S. and then do studying on the side for the certs.

+1

First off welcome to TE, I also am in Phoenix and graduated from Chandler-Gilbert Community College and went through the Cisco Academy with them graduation with an A.A.S. and I did not know how bad it was for transferring until I started at WGU and half of my credits did not count. Now I am stuck making up classes I should have took at CGCC. Their Cisco program is awesome and my Instructor knew a lot. If you are wanting to get certified I recommend going through their Cisco classes and using their labs as they will help you out greatly.

sentimetal

ajmatson wrote: »

+1

First off welcome to TE, I also am in Phoenix and graduated from Chandler-Gilbert Community College and went through the Cisco Academy with them graduation with an A.A.S. and I did not know how bad it was for transferring until I started at WGU and half of my credits did not count. Now I am stuck making up classes I should have took at CGCC. Their Cisco program is awesome and my Instructor knew a lot. If you are wanting to get certified I recommend going through their Cisco classes and using their labs as they will help you out greatly.

Thanks for the replies - all of them have been helpful. The certificate (where I listed the classes) for me would just be the beginning of my education, and would give me somewhat an idea and [hopefully] prepare me for a cert. or two. I am definitely willing to put in extra study time, I just need a starting point (hence the classes).

I am aware that an AAS degree does not transfer over to a University, but at the same time, I would be getting my general education out of the way, which is somewhat a plus side, I think. I wouldn't even mind working at Geek Squaid - I think they offer additional training when needed.

You are correct, AJMatson - it is mostly about helping me get my CCNA. And if I do put the time into an AAS degree specializing in certain vendors, I'm going to make damn sure that I do follow through with my CCNA and hopefully beyond.

A large concern of mine at the moment is... how viable is training in Windows Server 2003? Are Windows server-based companies still using 03?

ecstasyofagony

sentimetal wrote: »

I am aware that an AAS degree does not transfer over to a University...

A large concern of mine at the moment is... how viable is training in Windows Server 2003? Are Windows server-based companies still using 03?

I am a long time lurker, but this post has drawn me out.

In NM we have our community college (CNM) that works very closely with UNM. While I believe you have to have 51% of your credits at the 4 year college, still that leaves open up to a good chunk of your two year degree counting. Mind you this is all determined by the relationship one school has with another. CNM also provides the Cisco training into an A.A.S. which is great technical knowledge. Remember, in this field some people get a bachelor's in CS and still know next to nothing.

2nd, I work for a large paper manufacturer in the MIS department (along with other experience and certifications). Currently we are at a 2003 functional level, but we have three 2008 servers. While everything works well we will be moving over to 2008 in the next year or so. Hence why the company wants me to go the MCITP: SA route. This is us, not the rest of the world. There are huge changes and I can see wide spread adopting of 2008 in the near future.

With accounting experience like that you could make some serious money if you got involved with SQL Server and Dynamics. Just saying...

fly351

sentimetal wrote: »

I am aware that an AAS degree does not transfer over to a University, but at the same time, I would be getting my general education out of the way, which is somewhat a plus side, I think. I wouldn't even mind working at Geek Squaid - I think they offer additional training when needed.

It's not that the degree won't transfer or *some* of the credits... its that if you compare a A.S. to an A.A.S., the A.A.S. is missing probably half of the general ed. So IMO you wouldn't get accomplished what you think you will. I understand your looking for a start, and that is good. Try to think about long term as well.

sentimetal wrote: »

A large concern of mine at the moment is... how viable is training in Windows Server 2003? Are Windows server-based companies still using 03?

Some what; lower end/smaller companies for the most part. I would assume that no Fortune 500 company is still on 2003. Most large corporations are/have migrated to 2008.

Devilsbane

sentimetal wrote: »

A large concern of mine at the moment is... how viable is training in Windows Server 2003? Are Windows server-based companies still using 03?

Very viable, in my opinion. Even if companies are migrating to 2008 (some are and some aren't) they can't really take full advantage of 2008 until they increase the domain functional level. In other words, they can't go to full 2008 until all of the 2003 servers are dead. And even if they did, nothing you learn (or nearly nothing) on 2003 will be useless in 2008.

Devilsbane

fly351 wrote: »

Some what; lower end/smaller companies for the most part. I would assume that no Fortune 500 company is still on 2003. Most large corporations are/have migrated to 2008.

That assumption is incorrect.

sentimetal

ecstasyofagony wrote: »

I am a long time lurker, but this post has drawn me out.

In NM we have our community college (CNM) that works very closely with UNM. While I believe you have to have 51% of your credits at the 4 year college, still that leaves open up to a good chunk of your two year degree counting. Mind you this is all determined by the relationship one school has with another. CNM also provides the Cisco training into an A.A.S. which is great technical knowledge. Remember, in this field some people get a bachelor's in CS and still know next to nothing.

2nd, I work for a large paper manufacturer in the MIS department (along with other experience and certifications). Currently we are at a 2003 functional level, but we have three 2008 servers. While everything works well we will be moving over to 2008 in the next year or so. Hence why the company wants me to go the MCITP: SA route. This is us, not the rest of the world. There are huge changes and I can see wide spread adopting of 2008 in the near future.

With accounting experience like that you could make some serious money if you got involved with SQL Server and Dynamics. Just saying...

I actually have been calculating our Return on Assets and other Assets/Ratios/ALM-related stuff now for about a year now. I was so sure that I was going to go into accountancy, but office politics have really changed my mind. I'm sure they happen everywhere, but when it ties in with /what/ you do, it becomes rather sour...

As for the credits transferring, I plan on doing my general education before the AAS Cisco degree, because the school that has the Cisco classes is 50+ miles away.

I'm wondering what typical, entry-level IT jobs are like? My friend with a BS in Network Technology says it's always a tedious call center job. However another friend of mine was hired on at a hospital doing help desk right after obtaining his A.A.S. at Collins College in network technology... I suppose the experience varies?

Fortunately, I'm not really looking to try to make a quick buck, I'm all about the learning experience right now. I've thought about going the typical CCNA->CCNP / Linux / MCSE route.

How important are the CompTia certs?

SephStorm

My advice is to stay away from the buis Adm degrees. Although people say that recruiters want to know you understand how IT works with business, MBA's are a dime a dozen. If you really were interested in the management side, I would look at a B.S. CIS, or something similar, a lot of colleges are offering the business focused IT jobs.

I personally don't go for the certificates with a vendor name in the name of the degree. One, it sounds kind of cheap to me. Two, get a "cisco" "cert", and you may be in trouble if you are applying for a company that utilizes Juniper.

I would go for a certificate in Network administration, or something to that effect that sounds closer to an actual degree, if only to get past HR.

sentimetal

My initial education will be:

http://centralaz.edu/Documents/class/Network%20Administration%20Certificate.pdf

After that I was going to get my general education done and then take the AAS in Cisco. Right now I'm really set on getting my CCNA -> CCNP and eventually CISSP, but part of me wants to read up on voip stuff and even look more into Linux and Unix.

Despite having 4 friends who are in IT, none of them really have much valuable input on pathways. Three of them have degrees and no certs, the other has his CCNA, MCSE, and not sure what else. All of them have good jobs, though.

Network security and firewalls interest me, but so does VoIP and wireless technology.

All of you are so helpful, btw. Thanks for that.

earweed

Devilsbane wrote: »

Very viable, in my opinion. Even if companies are migrating to 2008 (some are and some aren't) they can't really take full advantage of 2008 until they increase the domain functional level. In other words, they can't go to full 2008 until all of the 2003 servers are dead. And even if they did, nothing you learn (or nearly nothing) on 2003 will be useless in 2008.

Although MS has added a lot with 2008 they basically just built onto what was already there. If you learn 2003, then 2k8 will just be that much easier. If you WORK somewhere with just 2k3 you'll have a big advantage in learning 2k8.

earweed

Devilsbane wrote: »

Very viable, in my opinion. Even if companies are migrating to 2008 (some are and some aren't) they can't really take full advantage of 2008 until they increase the domain functional level. In other words, they can't go to full 2008 until all of the 2003 servers are dead. And even if they did, nothing you learn (or nearly nothing) on 2003 will be useless in 2008.

Not quite. They can still use 2k3 but just not as domain controllers to raise their domain functional level. Even if they still only have 2k3 functional level most of the 2k8 features are still there, anyway (except a few, like granular password policies)

Psoasman

Actually,there are some 4 year universities that will accept your AAS degree. I am completing my AAS degree in Networking from a local community college and they have a direct transfer agreement with several universities, that will transfer most the credits earned.

Forsaken_GA

fly351 wrote: »

My 2 cents. Stay away from APPLIED Science degrees. Two reasons: (1) if you don't get certified within the area of study, it's worthless. (2) if you go on for your bachelors, most of your credits won't transfer.

Which credits are you finding that didn't transfer? I'm looking at WGU sometime in the next couple of years, and my associates is an A.A.S. I don't really care if the technical credits will transfer or not, as my certifications will give me most of those credits anyway, but if my general education credits won't transfer, that will royally suck.

JoJoCal19

To be honest, and this is coming from someone with an A.S in Computer Networking and currently working on a B.S in Business Administration and also someone who has 5 years of IT experience and 4 years of business experience, I think you're doing yourself a disservice to stop what you're doing and pursue IT from scratch. While you're young and you still have plenty of time to do that, I think you're really in a much better place where you're at. I dont know where you're at salary wise but I can tell you that especially in this economic environment, you'll do good to get a entry level job paying $10-$12 an hour. Another issue is your A.A.S is not going to get you an entry level job more than likely. I know countless individuals with thier Bachelors in IT, MIS, CS, etc that cant even get into IT. Heck Im not even able to pull interviews with my resume and education, certs because employers are so flooded with applicants, many who are more experienced and educated and desperate for work.

Honestly you would do much better by pursuing your AA and then go ont to get a Bachelors in either Business Administration or MIS. A degree in BA will open up more opportunities. The fact is that you do not need a degree in IT to get an IT job. I cant tell you how many people in my dept have non IT degrees. Plus the BA will open up more opportunities in the field you're already in and you can go elsewhere and get away from the politics in your office. Do not decide to leave what you're doing now for IT just because of office politics. Office politics are EVERYWHERE. I think its even worse in IT to be honest. In IT you have the huge conflict of the IT worker who has specialized experience and knows how to do the IT work dealing with incompetent paper pushing managers that know squat about IT but want to tell people how to do their job. Also you have to deal more with the competition office politics in IT.

Sorry for the long winded rant, I just thought Id give you another view to consider since this is a pretty important decision you need to make regarding your future.

fly351

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Which credits are you finding that didn't transfer? I'm looking at WGU sometime in the next couple of years, and my associates is an A.A.S. I don't really care if the technical credits will transfer or not, as my certifications will give me most of those credits anyway, but if my general education credits won't transfer, that will royally suck.

Well I haven't sent my transcripts in yet, but here is my degree (posted on WGU sticky):

General Education Requirements: 16 hours

Communication

Composition 1 ...... 3 hours
Intro to Speech ...... 3 hours

Humanities/Fine Arts (any approved): 3 hours

Behavioral/Social Science

Principles of Economics 1 ...... 4 hours

Mathematics (any approved @ college level): 3 hours

Area of Emphasis: 44 hours

Account 1 ...... 3 hours
Computers 101 ...... 3 hours
Intro to VB.NET ...... 3 hours
VB.NET ...... 3 hours
Essentials of InfoSec ...... 3 hours (not there when I graduated, probably replaced the Network+ course)
DB Management ...... 3 hours
Cisco Networking Fundamentals ...... 3 hours
Cisco Routing Protocols/Concepts ...... 3 hours
Cisco LAN Switching and Wireless ...... 3 hours
Cisco Accessing the WAN ...... 3 hours
Hardware Support (A+) ...... 3 hours
MS Windows Server ...... 3 hours
MS Windows Network Infrastructure ...... 3 hours
MS Windows AD ...... 3 hours

The Cisco courses were comparable to CCNA training, but I haven't taken the exam yet (working it for the next 5 to 6 weeks actually), and I never took any of the MS exams. The DB class won't transfer either because I don't have the CIW DB cert. I am hoping the VB.NET courses will transfer in place of the Java, we'll see. Remember that WGU requires your training be within the past 5 years, so that actually hurts me on a couple more courses too like Math and Intro to Speech.

ajmatson

sentimetal wrote: »

My initial education will be:

http://centralaz.edu/Documents/class/Network%20Administration%20Certificate.pdf

After that I was going to get my general education done and then take the AAS in Cisco. Right now I'm really set on getting my CCNA -> CCNP and eventually CISSP, but part of me wants to read up on voip stuff and even look more into Linux and Unix.

Despite having 4 friends who are in IT, none of them really have much valuable input on pathways. Three of them have degrees and no certs, the other has his CCNA, MCSE, and not sure what else. All of them have good jobs, though.

Network security and firewalls interest me, but so does VoIP and wireless technology.

All of you are so helpful, btw. Thanks for that.

Hey sentimetal you must be a closer neighbor then I though to be looking at Central AZ college I am in San Tan Valley and went between Central AZ college and Chandler-Gilbert Community College which is where I actually took the Cisco Academy Classes.

ecstasyofagony

sentimetal wrote: »

I actually have been calculating our Return on Assets and other Assets/Ratios/ALM-related stuff now for about a year now. I was so sure that I was going to go into accountancy, but office politics have really changed my mind. I'm sure they happen everywhere, but when it ties in with /what/ you do, it becomes rather sour...

As for the credits transferring, I plan on doing my general education before the AAS Cisco degree, because the school that has the Cisco classes is 50+ miles away.

I'm wondering what typical, entry-level IT jobs are like? My friend with a BS in Network Technology says it's always a tedious call center job. However another friend of mine was hired on at a hospital doing help desk right after obtaining his A.A.S. at Collins College in network technology... I suppose the experience varies?

Fortunately, I'm not really looking to try to make a quick buck, I'm all about the learning experience right now. I've thought about going the typical CCNA->CCNP / Linux / MCSE route.

How important are the CompTia certs?

Yep, politics are everywhere. Knowing how to CYA and not get caught up in some debate becomes key.

Entry level: I started at AOL back in 2001 just doing customer support, moved on to a few call centers, from there grabbed a position with a local Real Estate board doing tech support for their MLS. No certs, couple of classes. Made friends who transferred into big real estate companies and name dropped for me. Boom, I got into a demanding industry with no certs, essentially no experience and just with a reputation. From there I have gotten the certs and tons of experience. It sucks starting all over at the bottom, especially if you have gotten used to nice big pay checks. $10-12 an hour is a realistic rate of pay for newbies.

As far as Comptia, I will give the famous answer: It depends. Right now I am at a company that requires it to prove you know something. They give raises based on certifications. Other companies, or so I have heard, think you are just good at tests. Either way it's a measure of skill and can at least get your resume through HR bots.

Hope that helps.

sentimetal

JoJoCal19 wrote: »

To be honest, and this is coming from someone with an A.S in Computer Networking and currently working on a B.S in Business Administration and also someone who has 5 years of IT experience and 4 years of business experience, I think you're doing yourself a disservice to stop what you're doing and pursue IT from scratch. While you're young and you still have plenty of time to do that, I think you're really in a much better place where you're at. I dont know where you're at salary wise but I can tell you that especially in this economic environment, you'll do good to get a entry level job paying $10-$12 an hour. Another issue is your A.A.S is not going to get you an entry level job more than likely. I know countless individuals with thier Bachelors in IT, MIS, CS, etc that cant even get into IT. Heck Im not even able to pull interviews with my resume and education, certs because employers are so flooded with applicants, many who are more experienced and educated and desperate for work.

Honestly you would do much better by pursuing your AA and then go ont to get a Bachelors in either Business Administration or MIS. A degree in BA will open up more opportunities. The fact is that you do not need a degree in IT to get an IT job. I cant tell you how many people in my dept have non IT degrees. Plus the BA will open up more opportunities in the field you're already in and you can go elsewhere and get away from the politics in your office. Do not decide to leave what you're doing now for IT just because of office politics. Office politics are EVERYWHERE. I think its even worse in IT to be honest. In IT you have the huge conflict of the IT worker who has specialized experience and knows how to do the IT work dealing with incompetent paper pushing managers that know squat about IT but want to tell people how to do their job. Also you have to deal more with the competition office politics in IT.

Sorry for the long winded rant, I just thought Id give you another view to consider since this is a pretty important decision you need to make regarding your future.

Oh, don't get me wrong, my salary is probably 5k lower than what I should be making (I'm just below 30k). And I don't necessarily plan on stopping with an AAS degree - but I do want it because I know it'll help me along my path. I do plan on going through my general ed. after completing network admin. certificate, and before entering the AAS degree.

The politics aren't necessarily people bickering/not liking people... they're more along the lines of our board of directors getting rid of our whole marketing department to "cut costs" since we had a pretty rough Q1,

sentimetal

ajmatson wrote: »

Hey sentimetal you must be a closer neighbor then I though to be looking at Central AZ college I am in San Tan Valley and went between Central AZ college and Chandler-Gilbert Community College which is where I actually took the Cisco Academy Classes.

Hah, yep. You are pretty darn close. I used to dislike living in Arizona a lot (lived here all my life) until I went to Michigan with my girlfriend recently - that place made miss AZ quite a bit.

And yep, Central AZ is a lot closer than Gateway CC is. That's the reason I want to take the Network Administration certificate courses to see if I feel network admin is for me/if Gateway is really worth the commute in the future.

JoJoCal19

sentimetal wrote: »

The politics aren't necessarily people bickering/not liking people... they're more along the lines of our board of directors getting rid of our whole marketing department to "cut costs" since we had a pretty rough Q1,

Oh...well as long as those politics arent affecting you theres nothing you can do about that. That type of thing is happening prettymuch everywhere to some extent.